Thread: Argument for the existence of Platonic forms

I think the examples might need to be more specific to actually apply. For the 'good' example; instead of good and evil use murderers and non-murderers. Everyone in this post-apocalyptic society murders (or has murdered) others, yet still there is the possibility that someone born in the future will not murder. Does a possibility exist?

For the purple example; perhaps the physical properties of the world are not different and the wavelength that we might associate with purple exists, but for some stroke of luck no structures evolved to reflect purple or refract white light into that particular band. No one sees purple but the physical properties of purple light still exist. Is there such thing as purple? If people who had once seen purple were put into this purple-less world, does it exist then?

Still with these the answers are dependent on whether something in the mind (or memory) is the same as an external thing. It also poses another question, does the future exist?

If none of the feckless cannibals are non-murderers but they are capable of conceiving of a person who is one, does a non-murderer then exist in form but not substance?

Also Mario, thoughts are not brain cells. Thoughts are more correlated to brain states. In reality, thoughts do not exist (under your own definition) unless you believe the past exists in the physical world (which it might). A thought is the perception of a brain state that happened just before the state that integrates the perception. You are perpetually 'observing' what your physical state of being was with all your external and internal stimuli a moment ago. Therefore, as soon as the thought comes in to being it no longer exists.

Sound is a human construct. So is wavelength, amplitude, frequency, oscillation. They are conceptualizations of states of being that you can't talk or even think about without using the same and more human conceptualizations.

Originally Posted by really

This doesn't even seem like you even agree with this whole philosophy. Do you? What are you contributing to this discussion? How can forms even exist?

My point is that we have no reason to assume they do exist. I don't agree with Plato. Call me the Devil's advocate, if you so wish. The OP requested criticisms, opinions, which I'm promptly delivering.

This may be true to an extent, but it doesn't address the point. While the light or wavelength of purple exists when an observer is present or not, purple does not exist without an observer, because that may be considered abstract.

Purple describes light of a specific wavelength. Without humans, that will or won't exist, depending on the universe you choose to inhabit.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

I think the examples might need to be more specific to actually apply. For the 'good' example; instead of good and evil use murderers and non-murderers. Everyone in this post-apocalyptic society murders (or has murdered) others, yet still there is the possibility that someone born in the future will not murder. Does a possibility exist?

Sure, it may be possible. That non-murderer doesn't exist yet, of course.

For the purple example; perhaps the physical properties of the world are not different and the wavelength that we might associate with purple exists, but for some stroke of luck no structures evolved to reflect purple or refract white light into that particular band. No one sees purple but the physical properties of purple light still exist. Is there such thing as purple? If people who had once seen purple were put into this purple-less world, does it exist then?

So in other words, there is still no purple light at any point in the universe. It does not exist. Pretend a human arrives in our universe from another. He has seen a quadruple headed yellow dragon that breathes fried chicken. Such a creature does not exist in our universe. His arrival does not mean it starts existing. It still doesn't exist.

Still with these the answers are dependent on whether something in the mind (or memory) is the same as an external thing. It also poses another question, does the future exist?

If none of the feckless cannibals are non-murderers but they are capable of conceiving of a person who is one, does a non-murderer then exist in form but not substance?

It exists as a thought, perhaps. Unless you're willing to equate thoughts to forms, we still have no reason to suspect forms exist.

Also Mario, thoughts are not brain cells. Thoughts are more correlated to brain states. In reality, thoughts do not exist (under your own definition) unless you believe the past exists in the physical world (which it might). A thought is the perception of a brain state that happened just before the state that integrates the perception. You are perpetually 'observing' what your physical state of being was with all your external and internal stimuli a moment ago. Therefore, as soon as the thought comes in to being it no longer exists.

I sense at least one fallacy at work here. Is there a delay between perception and the events of reality? Yes. You are, in effect, observing what just happened but may be happening no longer. When a camera bulb flashes, it takes a split second for the light to strike your retina and your brain to process what's going on. When the light goes out, it takes another split second for the light to complete its journey and your brain to realize that there is no more light on the way.

How does your brain observe? It takes in information from your sensory organs in the form of electrochemical signals. Those signals trigger other signals within the brain, and that chain reaction ultimately results in observations and thoughts. Those thoughts will be in reference to an event ever so slightly in the past, but they don't cease to exist because of that. At the same time, the past does not need to still exist for those thoughts to be. Thinking is a fluid motion, and any given thought has no distinguishable beginning nor end, as each was triggered by other thoughts, observations, and chemical signals.

Sound is a human construct. So is wavelength, amplitude, frequency, oscillation. They are conceptualizations of states of being that you can't talk or even think about without using the same and more human conceptualizations.

Those all use human units, but are concrete within the universe. If you change the scale or the measure, purple light will still be different from red light. All purple light of a specific wavelength will be identical at every point in the universe, regardless of the means of measure, or if you measure at all. It's an objective fact.