Originally Posted by juroara
I'm not complaining about fairness, I'm complaining that these situations of only two options make no sense, no sense in that I fundamentally don't even believe they exist.
And this is why I was questioning why you felt they don't exist, you even admitted that you feel they fundamentally don't exist, but to be in an absolute thinking contradicts what you were trying to imply from before.
When people choose to kill any group of innocence for what ever justifiable reason, I still hold them accountable. Its not that I don't believe these situations can't conceivably happen, its that I believe the situation of only two choices never conceivably happens.
But it can happen.
The technicality is my free will to think as I choose to think. Do I believe there is no way to save those 5 people without killing the 1 hitchhiker? Its because I believe there is a way to save the 5 people without killing hitchhiker that I can decide to not kill the hitchhiker. The technicality that you aren't accounting for is that I inherently don't believe in only two options.
I can't change the way I think for the sake a philosophical question.
Exactly, because of how you apply free-will as being experiential truth, it's solely fit for that, because like before in other threads, people felt there wasn't really free-will at all. They even went to the point where it's a system we're in that have illusion of choice. So again, like the dilemma I set up, you're relying on experiential truth, but it doesn't sustain it potentially becoming objective truth.
You're right, I don't really believe in any of these situations. A hypothetical situation still has to be believable of you are asking a moral question. That said - i did answer all of the questions, and I have considered the greater philosophical implications of those answers.
The greater philosophical implications when you admitted that a self-destructive (sacrificial collateral damage) mentality with catch-22's and how you can't think out of them, and yet STILL attempted to find ways out of them makes your logic contradicting.
> Admits one can't get out of a catch-22 if using the same mentality that created it
> Still creates a philosophical implication even when aware that you can't get out of it because it's only going to leave you at loss of what to say
>Continues to state that war is the "ONLY" (absolute), and even makes a fundamental predisposition, and admits it, that you don't believe it's conceivably possible, even though there really are realistic examples.
I know you think that I'm somehow dodging the philosophical question on hand or that I'm not understanding the point of it. But philosophy doesn't exist just so random dreamers on some random board can babble all day long. Philosophy is potent. Its because I imagined that maybe this philosophy ISNT about a trolley, that the trolley and other examples are only metaphors - that I imagined the greater implications of what these questions really mean.
Yes, we acknowledge you answered the question and how you questioned the logic of the trolley incident, we get that. There's a difference between answering the question vs. answering the question, but still trying to make philosophical implications of something you feel you can't get out of because of its sacrificial collateral damage.
And because you showed a militant approach on how you can't get out of the situation, your answer didn't matter, because you were doing it so people don't think you're dodging the question. Your logic of being so disheartened by the logic behind it, and your apathetic response towards the double bind situation doesn't mean you can cop-out. You stated your logic beforehand, so if you answered with a response, you contradicted it.
Kind of like how people agree to disagree, they know deep down, they hate the logic, but they pretend to agree with a response, that's what you did.
I didn't need to control you for that, you made the unconscious decision to admit what you fundamentally believed.
Firefighters decide who to save, at the risk of their own. They don't decide whose life to save based on morality, ethics or philosophy, but simply who they can realistically save given the situation. All else is literally out of their hands. No one can blame them if they failed to save someone. Blame the fire. Doctors also find themselves in situations on who to save, but like the fire, they aren't the ones killing these people.
Okay then, with fire-fighters, they have situations they can't control, because fire is unpredictable, but that doesn't mean the fire-fighters, who should have decent knowledge in taking those risks (where they have to make the choice of saving someone under a burning set of planks and potentially dying in the process vs. having to get out there alive with the people that can be saved and leaving those that they can't reach to die).
The firefighter saves the people, but that other person dies, even with outside forces and their lack of moderating that, even when they find a way to win with saving people they could save, the parents or relatives of the person who died because they couldn't be reached are the ones that lose. The fire-fighter becomes guilty, the people being saved feel guilty because they wonder "what if I couldn't save?"
We all lose in some way. That's all we're trying to do with these dilemmas. Taking the third option is just not always possible, but we're not saying it's impossible, huge difference.
The same goes for the doctor, however, because when they're gambling with a person's life (they really are because it's a test of their abilities to work things around and hopefully save people), they are held accountable. Not accountable in the sense of punishment, but the level of guilt and the stain on their reputation if they can't save people in dire situations. It's the more they show they're not consistent, even if things are out of their control, people will deviate into finding fault mentally. They just won't go to that doctor anymore, which is why, even when the doctor is not responsible for the death due to things outside their internal locus of control, they lose either way (the loss is having a stain or blemish on their reputation of being a competent doctor).
Armies on the other hand decide who to kill. They use morality, ethics and philosophies to rationalize their decisions. Philosophy is potent.
When a soldier is assigned to kill people in a village, when they are battling through their own moral, ethics and philosophies with killing people without weapons and are defenseless eventually find themselves at a catch-22, and they must kill those people because they were assigned to, of course that's an example, but it's not the only example.
Armies "decide who" to kill because they built people (soldiers) who are trained with the idea that the mission is the only thing they can be sure of (of course, there are many concepts than just that). However, there are cases where the solider themselves has to resist from following an order because it's just challenges their sense of morale. War to you seems like the only way because people can be trained to have little resistance and follow an idea without questioning it. For you to assume war is the only reasonable and realistic example makes your intentions filled with naivete. Because with manipulation and control that double-binds can be sustained (but not the only way), there are other means of doing that, war is not the only real example.
All of these questions included one person who didn't need saving or intervention of any kind. This individual was perfectly safe, except from the human mind that rationalizes its justifiable to kill them to save someone else. Now do you understand why I see war as being the only real life example where this philosophy has been applied??
But war is not the only real life example, and that splits your worldview of:
War being the only real life example vs. anything not within war is not an example of a catch-22, double bind, or moral dilemma.
"Only" "Only" "Only" = absolute "only example" "Anything else that doesn't fit that spectrum is not that" "Only" "Only" How is your contradicting logic not apparent to you?
You set up a good idea with how catch-22s and double binds are horrible, but I am questioning how you're making a dichotomy of war being the only example of it. And then categorize that doctors or fire-fighters don't fall in that spectrum of experiencing hopelessness and powerlessness with double-binds, catch-22's, etc.
Another simple example are contracts, where people are liable to follow the fine-print. They can find loopholes, but a contract is a contract, and if they try to get out of it, they have to go through legal measures, but because they have to pay more just to get out of a situation, they just give up. It's a grid-lock, a catch-22. That didn't involve war now did it? Which means there are other real examples. I am simply tackling your fundamental beliefs of there not being a practical and real life example (other than war) of a catch-22, double bind, etc., not your response, to the scenarios.
I detest this sacrificial collateral damage-philosophy. I really, really, really detest that mentality. And as far as I can see, this philosophical delusion has yet to hold any weight in life. It's always been wrong, and I don't mean wrong as in guilty for someones death. I mean it was WRONG to assume there was no alternative.
Again, we know there are alternatives when we have time to analyze, but it's because of our lack of knowledge, time, and resources to explain things better (to try and make it plausible) makes it useless, because countless of people will try to justify it and become at loss of what to do now.
And its because this philosophy (that there is no alternative) has never hold true in the real world, that I consider it an intrinsically screwed up way of viewing reality. In fact its so far removed from reality that any philosophical questions positioning this philosophy as reality itself, first asks you to pretend that any alternative you can conceive of DOESNT EXIST.
What?
You can not think outside of a catch-22 from the same mentality that creates it.
Illusion of choice.
But its even more insane to say that you're not even supposed to think outside the catch-22! A catch-22 itself is THE PROBLEM. We should be happy if people are able to poke holes a philosophical question that delusionally positions itself as having no alternatives. Not say "oh you didnt get it". No, they got it.
Of course it's good for people to poke holes at the question, because the scenarios OP stated were impractical, but when people are trying to make something a bit more sensible than that, when you want someone to give past examples of where people are forced between two choices, that's what I was trying to present. We got over how you eventually made a choice, even though you knew the logic was self-degrading.
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