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    Thread: Carl Gustav Jung - Videos, Books, Ruminations

    1. #401
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      Addendum to addendum:

      Just finished first workout in several months (finally recovered from back injury). Assertiveness level 9000+. Feeling like – what did Sam Jackson have engraved on his wallet in Pulp Fiction? One Bad Mo**erF**ker. Yep.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 01-29-2019 at 12:07 AM.

    2. #402
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      Dream from last night:
      I was in a store that seemed to be in an Asian country, not a metropolitan area but a small village way out in the countryside. I was walking slowly around looking at the tables and displays, though I couldn’t tell what anything was. It didn’t seem to be food or anything familiar.

      I went back to look again at my own display, which was a matched set of pistols laid out on a red cushion with gold tassels. They didn’t seem to be actual guns, more like ceremonial ones I had made from leftover parts of some machine or something – not sure if they were functional or not. Earlier I had been meditating over this display, but had got caught up in wandering around just looking at the other stuff and had taken my eyes off my own, and now I couldn’t find it.

      I searched the entire market (temple?) or whatever it was, and they were nowhere to be found. I realized they had probably been stolen while I was distracted, and I continued to walk around, letting my anger show, as I searched for them. Not anger exactly - determination and consternation is more like it. Frustration at myself for taking my attention off of them.

      After a while a small weasle-ish looking guy walked in and stood beside me, looking down at a display as I was also doing. Quietly he said “It wasn’t me who stole your guns, but I can get them back for you”. Still without looking directly at him I nodded slightly, and he left. I continued to wander around the place, less agitated now, thinking I need to give him time to return the guns without being obvious about it.

      Commentary:
      On waking and thinking about this dream I realized several things.

      • It relates directly to my recent posts about assertiveness and about losing yourself entirely in service to God.
      • It also relates to bullies and how they function.



      If a bully or a thief steals your stuff in a public place, like say in school, he will often watch you for a while to see what your reaction will be. If you resign yourself to the loss he knows he's gotten away with it and will not return it, but if you make it clear you aren’t happy and will take some kind of action, often a smart bully will arrange to return the item in some surreptitious way. But you have to allow him some dignity for that to happen. If you start shouting that he’s the one who stole it or whatever, then he can’t even return it because you blew his cover. You need to let him operate in secrecy, the same way he stole it in the first place.

      Last night when I meditated (after working out and re-igniting assertiveness) I allowed myself to feel the warm glow of love surrounding my heart as I sometimes do, but along with it came the same warm glow around the solar plexus. They seemed to be linked, and I assume it’s because I made such a big deal about not losing myself in service to God, as well as wanting to re-establish self-assertiveness. Now I get the idea that you sort of determine your level of service, or the form of it. I didn’t want to become a selfless saint and be sent on missionary work god-knows-where doing god-knows-what, so I revamped my approach to include more self determination. Is that ego, and is it a deal breaker? Who knows. It seems to be really important to me though.

      All the while, as this stuff was happening, I also experienced an issue with my roommate. I spoke to him a week or so ago about some litter he left in the garage and outside. He said he’d take care of it, but I told him not to worry about doing it right away (as he was about to do) – just next time he’s out there. He walks through those areas every day on his way to work. When I told him that, I was in saint mode, trying to be as kind and forgiving as humanly possible. But he’s the kind of person who will take advantage for sure - give him an inch and he’ll take 5 miles. Now this morning I see he’s also left litter in the house, and hasn’t picked up the stuff outside yet. It’s literally as if he’s testing to see what he can get away with. So I'm going back to full assertive mode with him. It was working when I went warrior mode some time back and established and maintained strong boundaries, but if I don’t keep maintaining them he’ll just push his way right through. I see this as an important life lesson – what I need to work on is assertiveness, and when I fall short I suffer for it. Operating from only love and kindness is definitely not the right thing for me (especially since I tend to attract users and abusers), it needs to be linked with self assertion and strength.



      Last edited by Darkmatters; 01-29-2019 at 05:57 PM.

    3. #403
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      Followup thoughts:

      I'm beginning to think my ideas about saintliness are wrong. They're tainted by my own issues (the people pleaser syndrome). Maybe I've been mistaking my persona with saintliness. A true saint is probably a person who isn't operating through a persona to mask their weakness or issues, they've probably integrated the shadow and can drop the persona, so they don't have those weaknesses. Ideally anyway. I think my 'broken vassal' comment above is very apropos you need to mend yourself before you're worthy to give full service at such a level. A person still plagued by psychological issues isn't strong enough. John St Julien for instance seems like a person who doesn't have an issue with strength and assertiveness, so he can give full love unreservedly and won't get taken advantage of.

      I think I'm ready to go even more personal in here now. I've mentioned this years ago, but I have a much better perspective on it all now.

      My issues are because of malignant narcissism. My mom suffered from narcissistic personality disorder. And of course the way your mom relates to you creates the template for all future relationships, including friendships. It creates your mode of relating, and sets your expectations. Before I understood anything about psychology or narcissism, I came up with a theory I call "crooked hand, crooked glove". A glove shapes itself to fit the hand that habitually wears it, and if that hand is crooked then later that glove won't fit normal hands, but must find hands that are crooked in the same way the original one was. Also of course, little crooked hands seek out appropriately crooked gloves that will fit them.

      If you grew up with a narcissistic parent, and if you are a sensitive and vulnerable person, chances are you will develop what's unofficially known as people pleaser syndrome. A very strong-willed child won't - they might become a narcissist themselves, or might grow up to be a strong but somewhat damaged survivor.

      Also important to understand is the fact that a narcissistic parent will choose one child as the Golden Child who is always showered with praise no matter what they do, and the most sensitive one will become the black sheep or scapegoat, and take all blame for every problem in the family and in the world. I think you can see which one I was. So the scapegoat develops a survival strategy of people pleaser syndrome, complying and trying to please the narcissistic parent, and taking on their problems. They will sometimes grow up to become healers or helpers, treating other people's problems as far more important than their own.

      This makes you a walking target for all kinds of users and abusers. They scan a crowd and can instantly see the enablers, programmed by their parents to be victims. In childhood little abusers will often seek out and befriend such people, and of course the scapegoat children don't know what real love is like, or friendship they've only experienced narcissistic 'love' and believe that's how it's supposed to be. They recognize the feel of it and welcome it. They really don't have the self respect or confidence to hang out with the normal kids, who think they're weird. So the little abusers and the little enablers sort of end up together and pair off.

      This is the story with me and my roommate. We met on a school bus in 4th grade - in fact we met because he asked the entire bus if anybody could help him with a problem (how to make a paper popper, which were a fad at the time) and I had just learned how that day and offered to show him. It took me decades to realize he was testing all the people who live near him, so would ride the same school bus, to find helpful friend candidates. And I raised my hand and volunteered, sealing the deal for life. Or the better part of it so far anyway.

      Not sure why I'm going into so much detail - I think I'm using this as self-therapy.

      Anyway, to cut to the chase, he's the kind of person Peterson was talking about at the end of the last video - unsocialized who will push and push until you put up a strong barrier. I tend to draw those kind of people in to my life, but I've learned to recognize them and now I know how to test for narcissism and how to make them not want anything to do with me. I've shaken off all the other narcissistic or abusive people in my life, but he remains - he's deeply addicted to the relationship and as long as I keep him on a short enough leash he's alright, and can in fact be a really cool person much of the time.

      Interestingly, the Bible gives a lot of info on dealing with people like that. I recognized us both in the story of Abel and Cain. I also recognize him, or the template of his character traits, in Satan and other demonic figures. Resentful tempters and deceivers who revile Godliness (good behavior) with contempt and derision. Or as Ayn Rand put it, they hate the good for being the good. The Bible also many times says things about not hanging out with people who hate Godliness, who revel in sins piled atop sins with a wicked gleefulness (paraphrasing of course). Weird, I never thought I would be writing or saying anything like this - if I didn't have the understanding I do now of esoteric meanings of the Bible I would sound like a born again Christian or a Bible thumper. But now I understand sins to just be things you know are wrong or immoral but do them anyway. And I understand Godliness as just doing the right thing. When understood this way the whole Bible is loaded down with amazing practical life wisdom!

      Aaaaaaaanywaaaay...
      So my life issue is to develop better self confidence and assertiveness to re-wire the template installed by my mom (or by my unconscious in automatic response to her treatment of me) to make myself whole. When I said earlier that I might well have an underlying complex or neurosis, it must be the people pleaser syndrome. I need to find out if there's an official name for it and just what exactly it is. But I don't think mainstream medicine recognizes NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). It used to if you go back several editions of the DSM it was recognized and written about honestly, but the information is considered politically incorrect now (apparently because a lot of narcissists end up in high ranking levels in professions like medicine).

    4. #404
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      Followup followup thoughts:

      When I first got into all this Jungian stuff, I thought Individuation – constellating the Self and destroying the ego – was going to solve my psychological issues. Now I've come to understand that Individuation is the same thing (essentially) as a Spiritual Awakening, which is the central part of Christian Mysticism and other mystic practices, but I now have decided that you can't undergo such spiritual awakening (become a saint) until solving your psychological issues!



      What tangled webs we weave...

      Honestly though, I do believe I need to solve the issues here on the Earth plane (at the ego level, or the psychological level) before I can successfully reach the higher levels of consciousness. Or at least making the effort will help. I think if I just left it untreated it would be an impediment. Though quite possibly meditation combined with my psychological efforts will aid and abet the healing process. Yes, I believe they will work together holistically.

    5. #405
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      Extreme synchronicity – this video was posted by Academy of Ideas just now:



      I don't think what I have is actually a neurosis, but much of this is very on point and it seems I'm dealing with it in the right way, by as he said 'constructing something new' (a new attitude toward assertiveness and toward maintaining it in my life).

      ____________________________________

      Looking into PPS:

      "Being a people pleaser isn’t an actual mental diagnosis. You can’t go to a psychiatrist and get pills for never saying no. But it is a syndrome, a mental condition that affects quite a lot of people, and carries similar factors."
      Some excellent info on this page: Vantage Point Behavioral Health and Trauma Healing

      It doesn't seem to be a complex or a neurosis, but a syndrome (imagine that... ). And it sounds like I'm already well into the right way to solve it. Just need to remember to keep maintaining those boundaries and not let myself sink back into passivity and compliance.

      And I now think that letting my roommate move in is serving as a teaching experience. I have a lot to learn from this arrangement, if I'm open enough to it, and who knows, maybe he does as well.

      Edit: I cracked up at the point on that page where they talked about Sainthood and living the life of a Monk!


      Syndrome:
      "A syndrome is a set of medical signs and symptoms that are correlated with each other and, often, with a particular disease or disorder. The word derives from the Greek σύνδρομον, meaning "concurrence". In some instances, a syndrome is so closely linked with a pathogenesis or cause that the words syndrome, disease, and disorder end up being used interchangeably for them. This is especially true of inherited syndromes. For example, Down syndrome, Wolf–Hirschhorn syndrome, and Andersen syndrome are disorders with known pathogeneses, so each is more than just a set of signs and symptoms, despite the syndrome nomenclature. In other instances, a syndrome is not specific to only one disease. For example, toxic shock syndrome can be caused by various toxins; premotor syndrome can be caused by various brain lesions; and premenstrual syndrome is not a disease but simply a set of symptoms."
      From Wikipedia


      ____________________________________


      Now I believe this isn't even a psychological issue at all, but as Peterson would call it "A problem with LIVING". The heart of it is a survival strategy I developed in early childhood that served me well then - compliance and passivity. Well it ain't serving me so well these days!

      The solution turns out not to be anything psychological either, but behavioral I suppose you'd call it. Just being vigilant, not letting myself slip into passivity and compliance - the path of least resistance. Go ahead and ruffle some feathers. And don't be all apologetic when I need to say no to people.

      I also realize now that indeed the living arrangement with the roomie is a continual lesson. What better classroom than living with a narcissist - the very thing that created my problems to begin with. It gives me ample opportunity to practice assertiveness – in fact it makes it necessary, whenever I slip things will go downhill until I get it back together.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 01-29-2019 at 10:40 PM.

    6. #406
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      Gollum of Pure Love: People Pleaser Syndrome is based in fear fear is entirely of the Ego. Destroy the ego and the fear is gone, Poof!


      Gollum of Fear: But I'm very attached to my fear we've been together a long time and I'm not sure what I would do without it...





      This continues, going round and round like an endless table tennis match.

      3 Hours later

      Gollum of Fear: Ok, so the people pleaser syndrome goes away. But will I be able to set boundaries and defend them?

      Gollum of Pure Love: When the fear is gone, you won't have a problem with that, right?

      Gollum of Fear: Um... how do I know that? Can I download like a trial version, kick the tires and take it for a spin before buying? You're asking me to take an awful lot entirely on faith here.

      Gollum of Pure Love: It doesn't really work like that.

      Gollum of Fear: Ok, let's say I take that part on pure faith - it does sound reasonable. But the OTHER part still remains. Who will I become? Will I lose my current interests? I've spent a lot of time developing art skills, will I suddenly abandon that and become like a coal miner or go to work in a textile mill or something?

      Gollum of Pure Love: A textile mill? It isn't the 18th century...

      Gollum of Fear: You know what I mean - something completely random. Actually it sounds like when people do this they drop everything and become missionaries move to war torn countries and start patching people up, or feeding the hungry, or maybe recruiting more people to Christian Mysticism.

      Gollum of Pure Love: We don't hand out flowers in airports or knock on doors and ask people if they know the love of Jesus Christ...

      Gollum of Fear: You're avoiding the real question. Will I still want to do art? Or will I become some kind of missionary?

      Gollum of Pure Love: ........
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 01-31-2019 at 12:10 AM.

    7. #407
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      Saw this video this morning:



      Journal entry for today (not dream journal):

      @ 20:40 in the video – Douglas Steele: “those who aren’t ready to go all the way through with it are better off not playing at praying.”

      WTH??!! What does that mean? Is it a warning of dire consequences, or just basically saying “if you aren’t going all the way you might as well not even start”? No idea. Why is everything so vague? Hmmm - maybe because I'm getting my info from YT videos.

      Looked up books by Douglas Steele on Amazon, 1st one that comes up is called Dimensions of Prayer: Cultivating a Relationship with God. Apparently a classic, but can't find a PDF. The search did turn up a PDF called A Hunger for God: Desiring God Through Fasting and Prayer. Only briefly previewed it so far.

      But this is messing me up that I can't find any of this info. Are there dangers? What are they? And what the hell exactly happens when you break through? My questions remain - will it fix my psychological/behavioral problems (PPS)? Does it include a dark side as well, as most things do? People act like it’s pure golden love and bliss, but growing always brings on negatives as well as positives. I feel like Shadowofwind is right - he says spirituality comes with its dangers and darkness, and that the entities etc are very real, just like people you might run into in the mundane world, some of whom might be dangerous. My thinking is these entities are other archetypes – there's a lot more than just the Self in there.

      I think, until I can get some decent answers to these questions*, to my own satisfaction anyway, I need to put off meditating (contemplative prayer) because apparently it’s initiating a change of unknown type that is as far as I know permanent and irreversible. Maybe if I ever experience extreme pain or trauma in life I might decide it’s worth it to take the leap, but until such time I think I’ll continue to try to solve these problems myself in the physical/mental/emotional realm, not through spiritual or meditative means.


      Fortunately thanks to my recent little bout of frantic activity I discovered that the PPS is really the source of all the problems I’m experiencing right now, and also learned how to solve that. Who knows, once that's well in hand it may reveal the next layer of issues that are flying beneath the radar, but until that time, this is what I need to change. And as I understand it, when you solve a deep problem like that it frees up a lot of psychic energy that’s currently trapped in the unconscious, which then goes into positive things and enhances your life. AND brings a burst of bliss that can last for a while. It might even be similar to or nearly as good as the full spiritual awakening, but without the consequences of becoming a missionary for God and suddenly losing all your interests.

      Am I just afraid because I'm stuck in the ego? Well, undoubtedly I am, but then aren't we all? I mean, most people never go through a spiritual awakening, and I don’t know enough about it to make an informed decision. I’m not the kind of person who will dive head first through a dark hole in the floor because somebody told me “Just do it man, it’s cool, you’ll see!” – if I was, I’d probably have done all kinds of things, like maybe heroin or crack, and who knows what else. I like to have a pretty good idea what to expect before diving in. So I suppose I'll keep researching, I might be able to turn up some good info.

      * Is anybody out there knowledgeable about meditation or spiritual awakening that can help me out on some of these questions? Would be very appreciated.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 01-31-2019 at 08:23 PM.

    8. #408
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      I'm obviously not a jungian expert, you guys know way more than me about his ideas. I have been familiar with the concept of the shadow from before I was introduced to jung though. But once I found Jung, I did shadow work, with what I see as conciderable success. So since you can't find anybody writing about how to do it I'll share my experiences, uneducated as they may be.

      First I studied and thought about the topic in general till I had an intuitive understanding of what it all meant, and integrated the new perspectives into my view of world and self in general.
      I'm not a deep reader, I usually only consume a small amount of information till I have questions and concepts that I can let intermingle with my pre-existing ones. I then let it grow in my mind and I explore.

      Once I had an intuitive/integrated understanding of the topic, I just winged it. It came naturally... It's important to specify that I didn't think of it as a task to be overcome. I didn't think "I'm gonna do this and this to integrate my shadow" That's not how I work. With the understanding already there, the cat half way out of the bag, it was only my natural disposition that made me do these things. I was curious and eager to explore the new territory. It was play. And the deeper I went the more natural it felt, untill eventually I moved on with a feeling that I had grown and learned about myself.

      Another thing to mention, is that it has been a long time since I saw myself as "a good person". As I said earlier, I was familiar with concepts of shadow from earlier, and I was to a certain extent familiar with my demons. So this is not the case of someone changing their perception of self from "good" to "bad". I would rather say I was motivated by new ideas to venture deeper into the repressed parts of my psyche.

      I did thought experiments, violent fantazies and stuff to try and find out how deep my potential for malevolence went... I am a heavy daydreamer, to the point where it's problematic... so these things come naturally to me. After some progress it reached a point where things got quite existential to make it possible to move on and get "deeper"/worse... especially in relation to the self. Malevolence for malevolences sake is deeply rooted and existential in nature, so an important part of the dynamic is to trace possible lines that leads you to malevolence. What beliefs could lead me to this? Which changes could make me stop inhibiting these unnacceptable behaviours? Finding the pathways to and sources of malevolence is essential in understanding it, and thereby preventing it.

      An important part was lucid dreaming. My darker sides have always played out during lucid dreams. In my first LD seven years ago, the little time I had in the dream went to stabbing a man to death. Had I not woken up it would have been a killing spree, the dream had started with a military style briefing and parachute drop. It was natural, as I had recently left the army.

      So malevolence towards DC's was nothing new. But the state I was in during this "time of integration", however led to the malevolence being much more frequent, developed, brutal and conscious or mindful in LD's and also in normal dreams.

      Since I was just winging it I also made up my own meditation techniques to mindfully channel the repressed sides of my psyches. With some success. But that was pretty heavy work. I even positioned my hands in a fashion that made them look like a dragons head (it actually looks pretty dope)

      I summoned and intentionally split my personality on several occations, lasting up to a few days where I would have my persona and my shadow work together and talk in my head. I went into it with an attitude of cooperation. And it was quite rewarding. But obviously, the split is not integration.

      Another thing I did, and still do from time to time is summoning a feeling/perspective I never really named until now... I guess it might be what might becalled a calm, mindful bloodlust. It's hard to describe, but it channels malevolence and destruction for it's own sake. I can control it and turn it on and off at will. I never employed it in any social situation, but it feels enjoyable, so from time to time I will direct it towards strangers passing on the street or turn it on without having anything to direct it at.

      I could probably go on for a long time... and I'm gonna have a hard time not editing this. But I have to just leave it now and go to bed. Good night.
      Last edited by LighrkVader; 02-01-2019 at 01:45 AM.
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    9. #409
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      Wow Lighrk! That is amazing, thanks so much for posting it. Looks like the vulnerability is spreading, and that's when things get really good around here, when people are willing to put it all out on the line.

      I've never gone to that extent, and I'm not really sure if it's how you're 'supposed to' do it (if there is any such thing, and there probably isn't). But why not? My immediate response a couple of times was to cringe a little and think "Wow, really??!!" – as if it could turn you into an axe murderer or something. But it isn't going to do that of course - any more than playing video games will, or watching horror movies, unless the potential is already there beneath the surface.

      Question (if you're willing to keep laying it out so honestly) – you said it helped. How would you say it helped? Do you feel like it purged some dark stuff from deep inside, and maybe got it out of your system or something? Does it make you more capable of standing up to people you might otherwise have backed down from?

      Did you ever fear that fantasizing like that could bleed over into your 'real life' (for lack of the right term at the moment - maybe your external life or social life) and make you angrier or more potentially violent than before? Do the fantasies ever threaten to get too overpowering, or frighten you about what you might be capable of?

      Wait - I guess it IS how you're supposed to do it, thinking about some of the stuff Jordan Peterson has said. I've never actually done it like what you said, but I do sometimes have some pretty violent and dark fantasies if I'm angry about a situation where somebody insulted me or wronged me in some way and I didn't do anything about it. In fact sometimes I still boil over about a couple of things from years ago that I wish I could get a do-over on. So that's pretty similar, though my fantasies don't usually go beyond saying some pretty intense things (that I wish I had said at the time), often re-imagining it with various degrees of shouting and getting red in the face, ready to kick some ass. Ready, but I don't recall ever imagining that part in any detail, well ok, a couple of times now that I think about it. But then, my unrealized fantasies about the fights feel pretty dark and violent, when I don't outright imagine them. Guess I've got some shadow work to do...

      As if it isn't already obvious, I have a tendency to intellectualize too much, to get stuck in my head rather than getting into the body. That's probably why working out or doing something really physical makes me feel so good. I think I need to put up the heavy bag and the speedbag and do some fantasizin' and physicalatin'. Maybe bust up some firewood real good.

      Edit – not sure how i forgot this, but actually for a while I was doing some re-imaginings of humiliating events from my past where I would go really dark and violent, and in fact if nobody is around I used to really shout and scream at the top of my lungs, till I would get red in the face and punch things hard (like really hard, scary hard sometimes. Oh wait - I wasn't punching things - I was punching the palm of my other hand, and a couple of times I thought I almost broke it. It's surprising how fast this stuff can take you over and get really intense). Once I did it while driving down the highway, and was really screaming loud, and I suspect people around me could hear and see me, and I was pounding on the steering wheel hard - thought I might even break it, but I didn't. Screamed and shouted so much my throat was all messed up for a few days, and it felt amazingly good (the catharsis I mean, not the throat). I also remember getting a feeling like I was about to get a nosebleed, from pumping so much blood into my face I think. And yeah, I also bawled like a baby. Primal scream kinda stuff.

      Mmmm – just remembered, on that one I did start to get out of control, or rather it got so intense so fast I thought it might, and I was driving... it pulled up some really wicked stuff from deep inside. I probably need to do a lot more of that, but it leaves me drained and is somehow hard to start doing it the next time - I kept thinking I ought to do it again a few days later, but somehow would put it off. It's one of those things that's so intense it's hard to get yourself started, but once you do you can't stop until it's over.

      OOoooooohhhhhhh hell yeah!!! Just remembered, my neighbor in the duplex is on vacation till the end of February. I can make a lot of noise till then, but gotta keep it to a level where the next closer neighbors won't hear it. A little hard to gauge that.

      ____________________________

      Weird that at first I didn't remember doing that stuff. But it's because when I did it, I wasn't thinking of it as shadow work at all, it was in a totally different context. But it is shadow work of course.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 02-01-2019 at 04:13 AM.

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      This is like what I was doing, but not laying on a bed kicking (need to try that one!) At the time I was partially thinking about Elliott, but mostly it was from a course on getting over being a people pleaser if you had a narcissistic parent, from the Spartan Life Coach channel.

      I also dig Elliott's Grounding Camp stuff, for getting out of your head:



      Would be amazing to do that with a whole group of people.

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      Was planning to do some shadow work as I lay in bed last night, but somehow laying there all cozy and warm and pleasantly sleepy I just didn’t want to screw that all up, you know?

      And I think that’s how it works. We avoid the unpleasant and the uncomfortable, physically emotionally and mentally. If it’s been hurt a few times, the brain twitches away from the source of pain like a slug convulsing away from a pile of salt. No real thinking involved, just pure brute-level “This Good, This Bad" stuff.

      I can see I'm gonna have to work myself up for this, and do it in the morning when I’m capable of my best efforts. Think I’ll start with a good physical warmup, go all Elliott. But maybe I’ll skip all the screaming and crying - just go inside and explore the darkness. Lol - guess I failed to live up to my screen name last night - apparently the dark doesn’t really matter all that much to me!

      Shadow Figures in Dreams
      I guess it was a couple of years ago, I was asking my subconscious to show me shadow figures in my dreams, and it started complying. It seemed to put me on a graduated course, beginning with cartoonish and very obvious shadow figures, and they started getting scarier and darker.

      From my journal Jan 15 2019:
      Ok, now I am fully aware of my own tendency to spend a lot of time learning about something (like lucid dreaming, etc) that requires experiencing rather than just intellectualizing, and then as soon as I have a frightening experience with it I slam shut and refuse to allow myself to open to it again. This happened with the shadow figure dreams and the rest of the attempt to awaken the Self. As soon as I experienced a somewhat frightening shadow figure - the first one that wasn’t comical or cartoonish, I got scared off and shut down completely. That seems to have ended the Self-related dreams, and begun the “unable to understand” dreams.
      The really scary shadow figure dream - I can’t find it in my dream journal strangely, but I remember it like it was last night. I found myself sitting in a totally pitch black room with just a slice of light in a corner, enough to show that it was either a dining room or a restaurant. Otherwise total darkness. I was seated at a table with my hands laying on it, and thought I was alone, but suddenly I felt a hand laid on top of mine, somebody sitting across from me. In a sudden flash he was revealed – it was a demonic figure, I mean total Mephistopheles/Lucifer type, grinning evilly at me. Not at all cartoonish, this was wickedly real and deeply frightening. I freaked out, pulled my hand away convulsively, and woke up in a panic.

      I think either my mind was testing me to see if I could handle the really dark stuff, or I was starting to experience the really dark stuff and freaked out.

      What really sucks about it is, as the shadow figures were getting progressively darker, I had no problem facing them. I was ready to fight if need be (never came to that) or to negotiate/argue, whatever was needed. I also was ready for these things in my waking life. In situations where in the past I would have shrank away or just complied – going along to get along – I was standing up for myself admirably and actually surprising myself with how well I was able to do it. This probably coincides with that period when I was getting strong physically and was also setting and defending my boundaries, and reading the Osho book Courage; the Art of Living Dangerously (which is amazing I might add – re-reading it now). Not only had I got over my fear of chainsaws/axes etc and was doing the freaking labors of Hercules, reducing a monster tree to firewood and then burning it up in my living room little by little (which is extremely symbolic of conquering my fears and mastering life to a good extent), but I also worked on my fear of heights. I had to go up on the roof to do a few things, and I left the ladder set up for months and would climb up onto the roof and then back down many times.

      Before the Lucifer dream that ended it all, I was also having a series of very positive Anima dreams (in one a female MMA fighter I was watching, after the match, handed me an action figure of herself – on waking I realized it was a Figure - as in anima figure. I love how clever dreams can be!). Then I started having a series of what I take to be Self dreams.

      Those began with seeing eyes opening on walls and similar things. As if to say “I’m watching”. I would see a wall, and then overlaid on it were a pair of eyes, sometimes gigantic sometimes very small, sometimes cartoonish sometimes realistic. At first the eyes are closed, and they open, look around, and then right at me. Sometimes the eyes would open on things like dolls or little statues.

      In another Self dream I was looking out the big sliding glass doors of the old house – the back yard is half mowed lawn and half woods, and in fact the woods drop off into a huge ravine, so it was like a wilderness pit where I used to run off and play as a kid, and then party as an adolescent. Perfect representation of the conscious and unconscious! I noticed a semi-circle of standing posts about the diameter of telephone poles (or human bodies) and about as tall as a person. The center of the semicircle would be right where I was standing, but they only existed in the woods part (the unconscious), and each post had a hat on it. All different kinds of hats, some male some female, and all facing directly toward me, as if they were looking at me. It seems like even in the dream I smiled at what a perfect metaphor this was for the unconscious saying “I see you”.

      Then I had the Fixer Crew dream. I think I posted that one here - let me check.
      Yeah, here: The Fixer Crew (Encounter with the Self!!)

      Immediately after that entry I did a lot of writing about it, right there in the DJ, collating it with some earlier dreams that I think were about the Self as well.

      But interestingly, I think it was in that Fixer Crew dream where the Unable to Understand theme started. Had a lot of those dreams, and still do from time to time, but now I think I finally know what they mean. The leader of the Fixer Crew (the Self figure) was the first character I couldn’t understand, because of his German accent. And then came a whole series of dreams where I can’t understand some character but I think what they’re saying is vitally important, so I keep asking - pleading with them to repeat it. Sometimes they’ll repeat 1 or 2 times, getting annoyed with me, but I still can’t understand - they’re either speaking gibberish, or something is interfering, or somehow I just can’t make sense of it.

      Now I realize - the Self first showed me that it’s watching (the eye dreams, the hats turned toward me from the unconscious area of the woods) and now it’s making it clear that I'm not understanding it.

      Maybe I need to go back through all my dreams and try to find a deeper layer of meaning, some recurring theme that I missed before.

      What exactly is it that I'm not understanding, that the Self is trying to tell me?

      It might just be the fear, it might be a block between me and the Self, like the way the sins are a block between a person and the inner God. I think when I felt the touch of the Devil on my hand in that dark room I freaked out and shut down communications, from pure fear. And I also think that must have been around the time my roommate moved in – the one who behaves in very satanic ways, gloating wickedly and being completely contemptuous toward good people and good intentions etc.

      In one dream he was Loki from the Thor movies, who is very Satan-esque. In fact he’s (my roomie) the main person I had to learn to put up boundaries against - he became sort of my unwitting sparring partner as I learned to say no and to enforce my barriers and rules.

      But when he moved in several things changed. He started being on his best behavior. He knew if he would continue being his normal self he wouldn’t stick around long. Personally I predicted he‘d do something to piss me off bad enough to kick him out within 3 months, but he’s still here and it’s been a little over a year now.

      But probably the most important change - I had firmly established my boundaries with him, and stood up to him fiercely many times until he got over his initial “oh, you’re gonna try to be some kind of badass now huh?” period and accepted that I’m not the same pushover I used to be. And I advanced to a stage where I realized I could relax most of the time, but had to be ready at the drop of a hat to step up and show my teeth again.

      But when he moved in, I was realizing that his behavior in a way isn’t his fault – a narcissist is created through ongoing trauma in very early childhood. Generally it’s abuse from one parent and the other one failed to protect them from it. So I started looking at narcissists like rabid dogs - through no fault of their own they got bit and became infected. You can still love your dog if it get rabies, but you need to protect yourself from the disease that makes it want to bite you. I was beginning to really find some sympathy for the poor guy trapped inside that gruff obnoxious exterior. And I weakened.

      At some point, without realizing it, I stopped being ready to defend against his nasty little tricks and verbal sneak attacks. I suppose I was sliding into Monk mode - being all-forgiving. Loving-kindness as the Buddhists would call it. Turning the other cheek.

      Oh, another factor - a big one really. It wasn’t that hard to stand up to him when I could just send his ass home any time he pissed me off, but now this IS his home!! There’s no getting away from him, aside from telling him to stay in the basement where he lives. And he still needs to come up to use the kitchen or bathroom.

      In fact, it occurs to me, this single thing might be the heart of the problem - the reason my courage started to recede. Maybe I was relying on being able to send him away, but when I can't escape him I quail. Must ponder this more. Yeah, it does seem like the natural next step in my progression - I learned to stand up against people, but now I must learn to stand against people I can't escape. Hitting closer to home so to speak. When I master this lesson I'll be much stronger.

      So that brings it up to date. All these things are strongly related. It’s pretty clear - I need to get back to being a hardass whenever necessary. Screw this Saint stuff, it doesn’t suit me. It unfortunately doubles down on my worst character flaw, which I need to work hard to correct. Oh, and I also definitely need to get into the deep dark and do a lot of imagination shadow work, like LighrkVader was talking about. I was going the wrong way – I need to get more in touch with that inner demonic figure in myself, rather than see it as the Adversary, or project it out onto other people.

      Jung: "For a tree to touch heaven, its roots must reach all the way to Hell."

      Hudson from Aliens: “We’re on an elevator to hell, going down!”













      Last edited by Darkmatters; 02-02-2019 at 07:01 AM.
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      No problem I enjoy getting things typed out, it solidifies it in my mind which can be useful.

      For your worries about what these things could bring about. It is two sided. In general it is a good thing. But some things are maybe safer to keep repressed. They are more difficult to control when conscious. But it's a matter of self-discipline. And once under control, it is preferable, as the alternative is the risk of subconscious manipulation or the sudden surfacing into consciousness in a moment of weakness.

      I didn't go into this whole thing like a self help project. It's just what I wanted to do, there was no "work" involved, though some pills were hard to swallow, and I am sure there is still much that remains repressed for now.. Pride feeds sloth.

      But I see some benefits. Not what you ask for exactly though. There has not been a purging or ridding of darkness. That is repression, and it does not really work. The goal is to bring things to the light and accept yourself. Acceptance does not mean that you grant more power to what was once repressed. It becomes a more obvious part of you and is transformative. But most importantly means that you are taking responsibility for your nature.

      The aspects of self repressed into the subconscious wield power there and influence your behaviour. What you can not see, controls you. Once the existance of a specific aspect of the psyche has become conscious, one may, in moments of self awareness consciously recognize it's influence and reign it in.

      I can also, to some extent, intuitively recognize the manifestations of repressed natures in another persons behaviour, and thereby understand and approach them in a different way.

      Acceptance and compromise is the point. I accept these universal dark patterns, and I do not judge myself for them. The goal is not to change what is, but to employ it and try your best to do what you feel is right.

      ‘I think of it like taming the dragon… don't try to kill the dragon, the dragon's where you get all that voodoo shit from, that's where you get your power from. You don't want to snuff him out, you wanna tame him, you wanna actually make friends with him and harness his power so you can use it...’
      Brad Mehldau
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m276i7UIyNw

      Earlier in the thread there was talk of animals, humans and morality. That we do not judge animals for their immorality as they do not know better... This is all a continuation of that. With increased awareness of what drives your behaviour, comes increased responsibility for the effects of your actions.. The majority of the hurt that we cause is driven by repressed natures, factors beyond our awareness... From the interpersonal to the world stage... We even go to war in the name of righteousness... and it is pride that is the mechanism which enables all of this.

      I am sure you are familiar with Pride being the cardinal sin and defining character trait of the Devil in Christianity... This is essential... I think of pride as the soil of sin... it makes you blind to your true nature.
      Unlike the other deadly sins, which are desires that can be reigned in, pride is a perspective.... it's mechanics are so insideous and seem to me to be an unavoidable catch22 of sorts related to the existance of Ego. Which is why this is connected to spiritual awakening. Yet spiritual Pride is the master of camouflage, the trapfall of the seeker and philosopher, and according to christian theologians, "prides most insideous form"... It has of course, justified many wars of it's own.

      Spiritual pride is almost guaranteed to take control of someone after "awakening". I believe that The Devil is, at least in parts of the bible, a representative of Ego. In light of that, this quote takes on new meaning: "The greatest trick the devil ever played was making people think he wasn't real."

      Pride exists in a weird limbo between the conscious and unconscious. We have the conscious side of pride, which might say: "I am proud of my moral character" And we think of it as positive... and in a way it is. Pride has positive effects as well... But behind the scenes, pride runs a very shady show where it translates your repressed desires into something acceptable. A desire for murder becomes a righteous exceution. "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone."

      So can we judge a man by the malevolence caused by forces in his unconscious? Or is that the equivalent of applying morality to a spider?

      Integrating the shadow has an effect on your pride. While it probably strengthens your pride in some ways, perhaps spriritual pride.
      But it can also: 1 show you prides function and mechanism.
      And 2: Make you see a perspective where there is nothing about you to be proud of... That you are completely selfish. That there is not a good thing to be said about you.

      This makes it easier to stop your pride from making you commit malevolence. You mentioned violent fantasies against those who wronged you. That is an example of pride fueling rage.

      But it is not all negative... For a tree to stretch it's branches up into heaven, it must have roots reaching down into hell.

      Know that shadow work goes beyond violence, the deadly sins are a good starting point when doing thought experiments on this stuff.

      Your next question: Does it make you more capable of standing up to people you might otherwise have backed down from?

      I don't tend to escalate situations, but I am good at keeping them calm... So I don't recognize scenarios from my adult life where backing down or not is something I really considered. I am never afraid of disagreeing with someone. And if I do, I am willing to be convinced that I was wrong, but I don't get dictated. I am very anti-authoritatian, always have been. I don't do well in hierarchies. I don't want to be in charge, and I can't be controlled. I just do what I want.

      I don't see myself getting in a physical altercation any time soon, because of where I live and because I don't see a situastion where I would gain from it. Paraphrasing Jordan Peterson on strategies when seeing life as a collection of minigames: "Don't try to win a minigame if a side effect of the winning move is to limit the number of other minigames you will be allowed to join in the future".
      But the mindful bloodlust I talked about in my previous post is very centering and completely blocks out fear and anything other than strength, dominance and destruction. So I guess that would be useful if there was no other option.

      To finish off I would adress what you wrote a few posts up. Where you worry that spiritual enlightenment might be too risky and not worth it. If you feel that way. I think you should leave it alone. If you ask any real guru he will tell you there is nothing to learn, and nothing to teach. But then you should also leave the shadow work behind. The two belong together.

      Edit: The spiritual awakening makes it easier to see that the devil is a part of you. Approaching this without that means you are apporaching the devil as "an other" and an opponent at that... I'm sure it's possible... but expect him to live up to his reputation.

      I am sure there is much more on the topic I could get into, and I can also get deeper into my view on the bodhisattva mission of enlightening the world if you wish. But that would have to be another day.



      Edit: We posted at the same time. I'll read yours now.

      Edit: lol, we used the same quote in our posts.
      Last edited by LighrkVader; 02-01-2019 at 10:41 PM.
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      Damn dude!! Another amazing post.

      So much wisdom there to ponder, and much of it involves things I've been gradually becoming aware of. About pride, I mentioned somewhere today (I added notes to a couple of my DJ entries, not sure if it was there or above) that I now recognize my elation a year or so ago about overcoming so many of my fears as pride. And Jung has said that the road to Individuation is paved with a series of ego inflations followed by great falls. Each time though you learn more and develop toward wholeness.


      Can you explain this a little better? – "But then you should also leave the shadow work behind."

      Are you telling me I shouldn't work toward spiritual awakening and I shouldn't do shadow work? I don't think you're really saying that, but that's how it sounds. Lol, an IRL (or rather internet) example of failure to understand somebody - life imitates dream.

      But hell with it - I ain't just remaining as I am now. I won't continue to be taken advantage of and used. Gotta move some way, and it looks like it's toward Hell and the Shadow Realm. Maybe we'll run into each other there? I'll buy you a beer!

      To explain a little better - my main issue with the possibility of spiritual awakening is that I could suddenly not want to be an artist anymore, and become a missionary and spend the rest of my life volunteering in a soup kitchen or something instead. It sounds like something about taking the Christian Mystic route does that to you, turns you into a white blood cell in the body of humanity and sends you to a wound to work toward healing it. But Individuation sounds like it helps you to become who you are. I'd just rather be a stronger and more badass me than a Saint.

      There's no question about if I should do this or not - I'm doing it! The only question was which way to go. The high road or the low road. Looks like the low road wins out, because that's the way I need to go anyway to fix my character flaws and become able to not only stand up to people in any situation, but understand when I'm being taken advantage of (which with a narcissist can be extremely subtle and sneaky – ESPECIALLY if you're a people pleaser! It's like a specific kind of naivety that makes you highly susceptible to narcissist/emotional manipulator tricks). Also I still need to get better at standing my ground without necessarily being a jerk about it. Lol, often it's all like "Hey F____ you man!! You're not gonna treat me like this! I ain't putting up with this crap anymore!!" When with some more experience it could be something subtle but firm, with that kind of outburst waiting behind it as backup, ya know? That's what I'm working toward.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 02-02-2019 at 12:50 AM.
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      I actually just made an edit expanding on what you wanted me to, just before I saw you posted. ITS ALLIGNED!!!

      Approaching this type of conversation it is difficult to not place myself in the position of guru, "someone who knows IT... that secret godly treat at the end of the maze". That is manure, and I am completely unqualified... Just like any other "guru".

      As I said above... there is nothing to teach. But there is spiritual pride.

      Yet whether it is out of spiritual pride, or something else completely. I enjoy it. I like talking about these things.... and so... even though others do it better, I do it too.
      So, now that I have put down the disclaimer that I am wasting your time, I don't see any reason to complicate it further and I will talk for as long as you let me.

      Here is the edit regarding your question: The spiritual awakening makes it easier to see that the shadow or the devil is a part of you. Approaching the shadow without it could perhaps mean that you are approaching the devil as an "other", which then would imply competition, so you take on the devil as an opponent. So it would be different, maybe more difficult.... I'm sure it's possible... but expect him to live up to his reputation... a dance with the devil might last you forever.

      What I mean by that is that some of the perspectives that you gain from exploring self are very valuable and grounding when turning to the shadow. And I can not be sure. But I think the risks involved would be more serious and, for all I know, potentially lethal without those perspectives.

      As for whether you should pursue the self... It depends who you ask. It's a huge topic, and in practice there are styles. Some buddhas walk away and are never seen again, others become boddhisattvas and spread the message. The third do neither. They don't see any reason for anyone to "wake up", but they will humor those who think they need to wake up simply because they enjoy it. In my opinion these make the best Gurus. They often take in seekers because they know that the seeker will just go somewhere else, and that predatorial manipulators and leaders consumed by spiritual pride could take advantage or mislead.
      Students take after their gurus to some degree, so if you don't want to go become consumed with spiritual pride and go save the world once you wake up. I would suggest a Guru who's just a joker and doesn't take it seriously. A zen style perhaps. And as always, I reccomend Alan Watts.

      People ending up researching these topics and engaging in this sort of conversation are either truly and completely set on waking up or, they are testing the waters, teasing themselves with the idea of waking.

      A seekers desire to wake up can be culturally or intuitively triggered...
      - A cultural case might be as simple as someone having heard about this "great thing" and wanting it.
      - Whereas an intuitively triggered person might have something like a deep rooted feeling like they are trapped in an undefinable cage, and may feel like nothing matters so long as they remain trapped in this thing they don't understand at all. Speculating, I don't doubt that suicide is common with those who are not exposed to the possibility that they infact are the cage.

      So why should you do it? Honestly... there is no point. There is nothing to fix. You don't become the "true self"... you already are, there's nothing you need to do...

      ITS METAPHOR TIME!

      In a way we are dancers on a big stage. Now... who are the most extraordinary dancers on the stage? I think it's the ones who are not just dancing anymore. But who danced so hard that they forgot that they went on stage, forgot who and what they were before the dance began and made themselves a new identity completely centered around dancing. They are completely submerged in the music. They are performing an extremely complex dance with immense perceived risk, and they know that they will die, so they dance like there is no tomorrow. They are delightful to watch.

      But... there is a trickster on the loose, one day as they're performing like Gods, along comes a Boddhisattva and says. "You know... you're not really hearing the music right...as a matter of fact, your dance is delusional... and that is why you suffer..."
      Keep in mind that these dancers are comitted to dancing as well as they can, and they are quite hungry for anything to help them get better(and suffering less sounds pretty dope too).
      From one point of view you could say that the Boddhisattva lacks a proper appreciation for the art. That if he really looked, he would realize that not only are they hearing the music... but that they are dancing as if they were the music itself. But! This is all just what the boddhisattvas does... thats his dance. And there is nothing wrong with it. He adds another beutifully intriguing layer to it all, consciously a savior unconsciously a trickster.

      Some of the extraordinary dancers will follow the Boddhisattva on their quest for greatness and relief. They slow down their dance so he can teach them to hear the "real" music. And through a long loop and maze they go, dancing along the way... Getting ever more convinced that they never really heard the music... some dance like that for years and years, aiming to hear the divine music at the end of it. And the Boddhisattva says: "You ARE the music..." and they ponder his words... Then he says: "there is only one music, and you're it"... Now... Had the dancers not been taken on such a confusing ride they would have realized at this point that, if there is only one music then that's the one they are hearing RIGHT NOW, and that it's same one they alway heard... and have been dancing to all along... But at this point the dancers have their heads all in a big knot.

      So now the Boddhisattva has quite a task on his hands untying these peoples heads, because after all, he's dead set on getting them to realize that the music is all around them. But he has many tricks, and eventually it works. Their perspective shifts and they realize that they were the music the whole time. They laugh their hearts out about the cosmic joke that is this strange journey.

      But their individual take away vary and they choose different styles of dancing. Some dance however they feel and revel in the new world, while some do the boddhisattva dance and start the cycle again.

      Edit: Now. Is there spiritual pride in the boddhisattva quest. Yes. But it doesn't matter. When these things become clear, a nuclear bomb or or kiss from a lover it's all just dance. Equally beautiful. Sin belongs in the realm of duality.
      Last edited by LighrkVader; 02-02-2019 at 12:16 PM.
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      We really do seem to be syncing up - it's a trip. Actually it seems to me that it's because we're talking about the same things, and I'm starting to understand them (and to understand that understanding is just intellectual blather, but a certain amount of learning/research etc is necessary to get to a place of enlightenment). Lol, shaking my head at how everything is turning into "It is, but it isn't at the same time, and that's the point. But there is no point. And yet there is..." (ah the rolling lol! Perhaps the perfect symbol of enlightenment). And that statement is not aimed at your posts, which are filled with the "it is but it isn't", but rather at my own understanding, which is getting all twisted up like that. I'm really digging your posts, but I have so much I need to write, I need to leave it at that for now.


      --------------- ---------------



      I’ve got this figured out.

      Woke up understanding it this morning.

      I already have exactly the tools I need to do this, and now I understand exactly what I need to do - it was figuring that out that was tricky. And I think the reason I figured it out is because lately I’ve been understanding more and more that it’s all the same thing. The many is really all the one (and at the same time the one is always branching out to become the manifold). I've been realizing more and more that all these different religions, spiritual systems, Individuation and Spiritual Awakening etc are all just different words for the same thing, with a few variations here and there. So are all the various techniques for freeing yourself of stress and anxiety, such as the Elliott Hulse videos I posted the other day, and many other similar techniques, which really are aimed at fixing very specific aspects of what the religions and spiritual systems are aimed at fixing in a more general sense - the anxieties and stresses of living (anxieties and stresses are the same thing too actually - why do we complicate everything so much?) They’re just fear (anxiety and stress I mean). We use many other terms for it as well, such as people pleaser syndrome, social anxiety, and endless lists of other ones.

      But they’re all just fear.

      And what is fear? It’s primitive survival strategy turned inward because we live in modern society. Originally the fear impulse was to make you jump if you saw danger - in the jungle or the veldt you needed to jump before you had time to think, because the dangers were very real and very physical. Saber-tooth tigers – snakes to bring Jordan Peterson into this. Mastodons - enemy tribes. You react to these things physically and FAST! Or you die right there.

      But now we live in cities or subdivisions, surrounded by concrete, blacktop, brick, and people. No sabertooth tigers, hardly any snakes. The dangers aren’t really physical anymore, most of them. They’re social.

      We still have those primitive alarm systems in place, but when the bells start ringing now we can’t jump, or fight anymore. So the panic gets internalized, unless you’re a real extrovert who might actually jump or react physically in some way. Maybe get loud and aggressive for a while. Those people probably get it out of their system, at least a lot better than the introverts, who internalize it all and repress it down. So they externalize the panic, and can vent it out into the atmosphere, purge their inner system of it before it gets them all plugged up.

      This is what Elliott’s Bioenergetics is about. I remember a book called Complex PTSD: from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker, the gist of which is that when we suffer trauma there’s a need to externalize it through immediate action, but in modern society we don’t do that (I THINK that was the book - it was definitely related to CPTSD and I believe it was by Pete Walker, though it may be another one he wrote). The author figured out that you can bring those old traumas up by re-imagining them - put yourself back in the original situation when you experienced the surge of panic and internalized it, but this time ACT. Move violently around. He found through lab research on living subjects that if people sort of acted out violent fantasies with some physical motion involved of certain kinds it allows them to release the tensions that they stored in the body initially. I don’t believe they’re actually literally stored in the body, I think they got stored emotionally in the unconscious, but they can be accessed and released through physical action while re-imagining the events, or imagining ones that are similar to events you might not be able to clearly remember (because they happened too early in your life). He calls this somatic healing – somatic meaning of the body, or through active physical means.

      I also have another very powerful tool called Stoicism, that I’ve already used to re-write some pretty deep templates and rid myself of some of my fears. Why didn’t it occur to me to use it to rewrite the people pleaser syndrome? I used to think of it as social anxiety. They’re not identical, but there’s a lot of overlap, and I probably have elements of both, but at the root they’re the same, just fear that we internalize when it should be externalized so it can be vented off.

      So now I'm working up a Stoic meditation practice to do several times each day, at least in bed before and after sleep, when the unconscious is very near. I’m thinking about exactly what people pleaser syndrome consists of - the actual fears involved. Getting really focused in on what I'm really afraid of, and even just in doing that I begin to see how ridiculous the fears really are. My little child mind just didn’t understand that, and when they became habitual I never examined it closer - instead I always allowed myself to let them grow rapidly and overwhelm me.

      So what is it that we fear in these situations? Certain facial expressions, certain thoughts that other people direct toward us. Things they might say, that other people might hear and join in the mockery or ridicule (which are the same thing). What is mockery/ridicule really? Well, it’s nasty thoughts a person can have about another person that might be embarrassing. And what exactly can these thoughts do to you? Hmmm… let me think about that. They’re thoughts, so not much really. It isn’t the thoughts in other people’s heads that can do us any harm, it’s only the ones in my head that can do that. Well Jeeze (which means Jesus, which means Yeshua, which also means Joshua, which originally in a way means God, which means Yahveh, which means Jehovah...) – so what am I worried about then?

      Well - hold on. They can do some damage actually. People can communicate those thoughts to other people. A whole crowd can join in and the mockery can spread like wildfire.

      Ok, so what? More of the nothing that doesn't damage you in the first place right? What damage can that actually do? Think about it. I’ll wait.

      Ok. Well, it sucks to have a whole bunch of people laughing at you - it makes you feel terrible.

      Really? Is that all?

      Well, it can damage your reputation too. All those people, plus anybody else who hears the rumors or whatever, will think terrible things about you afterwards - it can follow you for your whole life.

      Ok. And?

      What do you mean?

      What damage can be done by these thoughts in other people’s heads?

      Well, you might not be able to get a certain job…

      So get another one. There are many things that can prevent you from getting a particular job. This is only one of them. Do you have any control over it? Over what these people are thinking about you?

      Well, to an extent I suppose. You could maybe straighten them out. Explain the real facts. But they might not believe you.

      Ok, and then what?

      Well, if they don’t believe you, then you won’t get the job, and those people still think terrible things about you.

      Yes, we covered that. Terrible things in other people’s heads about you. Those really can’t do anything to you - to the real you. Only to your reputation, and reputation is a thing you don’t control. No-one controls their reputation. So just let that go. It does no good at all to worry about something you can’t control, does it? In fact that’s the REAL damage, isn’t it? What happens inside YOUR head. That’s where things really happen that affect you.

      Hmmmm - yeah, I guess so. I need to think about it some more.

      And that's one thing you CAN control.


      ______________________________



      This is the basic form of a Stoic meditation. I presented this one as a dialogue because it’s a useful way to present it - and really it’s pretty much the way we think. A series of questions and answers. The cool thing is - the answers are largely coming from your unconscious. That’s a thing called Cybernetics. Not meaning robotic parts added on to human bodies - it’s the same word, but applied to a modern technology. The original cybernetics is a psychological technique of accessing your unconscious through asking it questions. The mind is set up specifically as a question and answer machine - ask it a pointed question without a lot of gibberish attached – pare it down to the essentials, and it will mull it over, usually overnight, and give you an answer. Ask the question again the next morning and you just might ‘hear’ a response. It does its work as you're sleeping. Look up cybernetics it’s really awesome stuff.

      Stoicism is really meditation. It’s a particular type, which interestingly is done the same way as Jesus used to pray to his dad – I believe I wrote about it somewhere in all that mass of stuff I typed up so frantically about Christian Mysticism. He used to go out into the desert for some peace and quiet, and he’d pray to God (talk or ask questions) and then he’d listen (go silent and contemplate – Meditate). So that's Cybernetics. Which can also be Stoicism if you ask the right questions.

      Combine all this stuff together. All I need to do is, each day before and after bed, and what the hell, maybe in the afternoon too if I want, think deeper and deeper into what exactly it is I’m afraid of. Get at the root of exactly what this template of people pleaser syndrome really is, and go in and re-write it.

      I used to think in terms of re-wiring your brain. But I realize that metaphor doesn’t really mean much to me because I'm not an electrician. I can picture soldering different colored wires into a circuit board or something, and I’ve done a little of that ,but it doesn't really MEAN anything to me. So I’m switching to re-writing. That’s something I do all the time, for instance here in my posts on this thread. If anybody hasn’t noticed, my posts change several times throughout the day, I’ve got about 24 hours to edit, and I use it well! It can make the difference between a messed up post that doesn’t really say what you want it to, and a tight, well-formatted one that really delivers. Re-writing is also something I'm quite familiar with as a writer (I mean of stories, not forum posts). In fact it IS writing stories. And writing stories is how we create our lives.

      We rewrite our lives frequently, when we re-frame events that were important to us in order to make sense of it all. Depending on how you frame things, your whole idea of your life changes. A disaster can become a triumph if you find the right way to look at it. So in that way writing and editing are exactly the same thing as Stocisim. It's technically a way to go in and edit your templates at a deep level. With enough meditation and conscious focus, you can dissolve old patterns that serve no purpose or that actually cause problems, and replace them with new ones that function properly.

      I think when I go in to do my Stoic meditations I'll imagine myself hitting the Edit Post button here on the forum. Lol, and at the end, the Save button. Hah!! The right imagery makes all the difference. Maybe even hit the Go Advanced button which allows you to access all the deep re-writing tools...

      Hah! Followed by seeing the screen that says "Your post has been successfully edited. You are now being taken to" (not sure what it says there - need to check next time I edit, which will be within ... oh, a couple of minutes I guess).

      (Edit): I can already feel the new ego inflation coming on. Yeah baby, I GOT this!!!

      Bring it on! Headed for the next big fall, and one step closer to - whatever the hell it is. Nothing and Everything. But it doesn't mean anything. And yet it's super important. Blah. I guess this is what Don Juan Matus calls Controlled Folly, huh?



      Last edited by Darkmatters; 02-02-2019 at 05:31 PM.
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    16. #416
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      Go All Ancient on it!

      Just want to add - all the best things I've discovered in life - the important things that actually give you control over your life, turn out to be ancient techniques like fasting, meditation, Stoicism, the various religions and spiritual systems etc. Turn away from the modern crap, it's all designed by corporations to exploit you in some way. Look into ancient ideas and practices that the majority of people scoff at today. Not all of them are great, but a handful of them are. I can only vouch for the few I've tested and stuck with, which are Stoicism, done a bit of meditation and a lot of intermittent fasting plus doing a 3 day fast starting tomorrow. Nofap is actually a part of something ancient, which is to reduce sinning. That would come under the headings of Lust and Gluttony, using the expanded definition which means to take anything to an extreme. In fact fasting, nofap and meditation are all common parts of most ancient religions and spiritual systems and the smart (practical) philosophies (meaning not the modern purely academic hair-splitting 'philosophies' not aimed at improving people's lives).

      Just realized - nofap (sexual abstinence is a better term really) is also the same as meditation and fasting in that you shut off a particular system of the body or mind and allow it to rest and recuperate and regenerate itself. In each case it also stops you from constantly expending all your inner energy, which is just blasted out through heedless modern living. This idea seems to be at the heart of much of the ancient wisdom that has been lost (perhaps deliberately?) in modern civilization.

      Well ok - not "ALL" the best things are ancient. For example modern things like the research into Complex PTSD is amazing. In fact remembering that book has got me looking into it again, and now I recall I intended to re-read it, because there's so much incredible info in it that applies perfectly to my situation. CPTSD is a far better term for it than "people pleaser syndrome".

      Important factor - CPTSD makes you unwilling to trust, which makes real relationships impossible or very difficult. It makes you unwilling to open up to people and love. And from the Osho book love is the opposite of and the only antidote to fear. So maybe those with CPTSD need to learn how to dissolve it gradually to enable themselves to love. I don't think a spiritual awakening can happen if you're incapable of loving truly and deeply. In fact I now wonder if this is what keeps causing the BONK whenever I get close, like the devil figure that filled me with fear and other similar things. Such as why I decided after my first high-level lucid that I don't like them and quit even doing lucid dreaming for the most part because I prefer regular dreaming. Not entirely sure why. Maybe I need the love to drive the fear out and that's the key to all of it.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 02-02-2019 at 07:48 PM.

    17. #417
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      AYAHUASCA vs BIOENERGETICS - Elliott Hulse on London Real

      The video above is a clip from the longer video below:


      Elliott Hulse - The Body Is The Mind - PART 1/2 | London Real

      Part 2 doesn't seem to exist on the channel - I think you have to join their pay site to see it. Good stuff right here though, and loads of other similar videos in the recommendations.

      It doesn't really get onto the Jungian/Shaman stuff until 47:50, unless I missed something earlier (I skipped through it kinda fast up to that point).
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 02-03-2019 at 02:59 AM.

    18. #418
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      Imma post a lil meme @ myself:


      Ok, I think my massive outburst of posting activity is coming to a natural close. I've come to understand a lot of things better thanks to all this activity, but Osho informs me that left brain thinking/ ego thinking is fear-based and blocks love and growth. So I'll stop inflicting my inner turmoil on everybody and deal with it through better means, though I do think this was a necessary step.

      Maybe one day I'll realize I don't need to do anything and just drop it all, but for now I struggle onward and work to dissolve the Cptsd/people pleaser syndrome.

      Not saying I'm totally stopping the thread (again), but I won't be making the huge posts now.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 02-03-2019 at 02:56 PM.

    19. #419
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      I don't think I ever posted this one in here, but it explains so much about Christian Mysticism and Spiritual Awakening:



      Also I checked Internet Archive for books by Gurdjieff and downloaded a couple. This looks like the most comprehensive one, laid out as a shop manual for easy reference with diagrams and charts: The Gurdjieff Teachings by Dr. Narinder Sharma

      Here's the whole page of things about or by him: https://archive.org/search.php?query=gurdjieff

      It includes video and sound files like audiobooks or recordings - tick the Text box if you want to see only books. Tried to link it that way but the link comes up broken.

      Lately I'm doing Stoic Meditations on my People Pleaser Syndrome/Cptsd, to get to the root of exactly what it is - precisely what kinds of fears it consists of, so I can re-write the template (or maybe just drop it entirely). And now I'm beginning to see that several of the deep spiritual practices dealing with self-transformation include the concept of self-remembering or an early life review. I believe I first came across that one when I got fascinated by Castaneda (though I didn't like the more mystical aspects of it, but now I understand they're probably metaphorical and not literal).

      The water fast is going well so far - well into day 3 now, which is supposed to be when hunger hits the hardest. I've hardly felt a twinge of it yet aside from a few mild flutterings late in day 1. Considering going for 5 days, or maybe 7 if I make 5 and feel good about it. It's a shame to stop on day 3, which is the worst part - after that it gets easier and the real benefits start to occur.

      Lol, if I do go for 7 days the groceries I bought on day 1 will have gone bad - some of them anyway. I was only considering 2 or 3 days at that point and wanted to make sure I have some food (of the right kind which is vitally important) in case I suddenly need to break the fast.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 02-05-2019 at 07:07 PM.

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      Fasting Update - midway through day 3

      Now I'm definitely in keto - I'm getting a stronger and stronger metallic taste in my mouth and I started getting symptoms of the keto flu. I know it well from my time experimenting with the keto diet - dizziness on standing up, headache, and nausea. I also know the antidote - The Broth. 2 bullion cubes in 2 cups boiling water, and add just a pinch of potassium chloride powdered supplement. Just 1/32nd of a teaspoon, which is the tiniest dab on the tip of the spoon, don't want to take more than that or it can cause problems that I don't recall at the moment. And also I spray on a couple of squirts of a liquid magnesium supplement that absorbs through the skin. The bullion is for sodium, and I also add a couple big pinches of celtic sea salt. These replenish electrolytes that a keto diet doesn't supply enough of.

      Do this once each day for a few days while going into keto and you can avoid the worst symptoms of the flu but usually you'll still get some. Much better than going in totally unprepared though, that gets brutal!! Keto flu is a transitional thing - it should only last a few days or maybe a week. If you keep experiencing symptoms then keep drinking the broth.

      So technically i guess this is no longer a true water fast, since the chicken bullion cubes have 5 calories each. A single calorie technically breaks a water fast, but I'd rather not go through that hell right now.

      Since I did that, I might as well also drink some green powder, for all the vitamins I might need. A few more calories, but really does a body good. And recommended by many fasting experts. Though again, technically it isn't a true water fast this way.

      Oh, for those who don't know, keto is a state in which your body switches from running on glucose (sugar) to running entirely on stored body fat. Also being in keto has many benefits to the body that I won't attempt to list here. During a water fast about 3 days in you'll drop into keto, and that's around the time you start getting some of the real benefits of a fast.

      I should also add, I hardly felt any hunger at all, and day 3 is supposed to be the worst part. Just a few mild flutters late in day 1 really, plus a mild headache that lasted 2 days but is gone now, probably from stopping coffee. Ever since I started feeling the keto effects, I'm feeling amazing now! I was really tired all day yesterday, slept quite a bit. I think that's pretty normal for the early part of a fast.

      I did a workout 2 days ago and today to use up any glucose stored in the muscles or liver, and it was right after today's workout that I started noticing signs of being in keto - I think the exercise really helped get me there.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 02-06-2019 at 06:41 PM.

    21. #421
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      Here's a page where you can download PDFs of several of Maurice Nicoll's books. There are volumes 1 and 3 of his complete 5 volume work on the teachings of Gurdjieff, and right at the top his unfinished book called The Mark, which was arranged by his son (or daughter? not sure). He died without finishing it unfortunately, but just from the table of contents it looks pretty amazing.

      Also of great interest is #5 on the page, simply named Maurice Nicoll. It's in the form of photocopied pages scanned from the book Living Time.

      Maurice Nicoll - 77 PDFs

      I started reading The Mark, and can't seem to stop. The part I'm reading now is a very in-depth explanation of the esoteric meanings of terms, phrases and parables in the New Testament, linking it strongly with Hermeticism. For example - note the similarity between "On earth as it is in Heaven" and "As above, so below". What they really mean, properly understood, is "As within, so without". Deeply fascinating.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 02-06-2019 at 06:04 AM.

    22. #422
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      Both Alice in Wonderland and The Wizard of Oz are esoteric works



      I'm just gonna link to the articles and let them do the talking:

      ALICE IN WONDERLAND: THE ANCIENT WISDOM

      Be sure to read the comments below the article.



      The Occult Roots of The Wizard of Oz

      Curioser and curioser...
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 02-06-2019 at 06:50 PM.

    23. #423
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      Helluva thread, Darkmatters!

      A question wandered across my mind this morning to which I thought you might have an answer: Did Jung ever discuss or postulate the possibility of shared dreaming? I'm familiar with his concept of the Collective Unconscious, but, though Jung may occasionally have gotten a bit mystical about it, the Collective Unconscious was -- as far as I know -- more about a group of shared symbols and metaphors than it was about actual direct sharing of thoughts, or dreams.

      Feel free to cast this off as a stupid or too far off-topic question, but if you have come across anything in your research of Jung about shared dreaming, it would be great if you might, um, share it... if you've already discussed this here, just let me know and I'll be on my way...
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      Hey Sageous!!

      That's a great question. I'm not really sure if he ever wrote about shared dreaming or even lucidity. Wait- I think I did see something once where he mentioned lucid dreaming, but I believe his opinion was that it's too unfocused to serve as a real tool for psychological work. Which would indicate that he had no experience with high level lucidity.

      I have no idea where I ran across it. I might have to try to search that info up.

      Instead he pioneered the use of Active Imagination, which I believe is often a precursor to WILDing and even when it isn't, is very close in nature to it. I've written about it earlier on the thread. Let me see if I can dig that up and link to it...

      1st post

      2nd post - the 2 posts following this are about Active Imagination as well.


      When I've been able to harness dreamlets and turn them into active imagination, it was pretty amazing, and somewhat similar to lucid dreaming. I've found the closer they become to actual dreams the better the visuals are but the less control I seem to have, and when I want greater control I often have to drop into just sort of thinking (in words or symbols), without real visuals, or static low-res visuals that are more like a slide show following my line of thought. Still though it does seem to be an effective way to get into your subconscious and communicate with it pretty well. I've had good results as well immediately after waking from a dream by lying still and re-imagining it but with the results I want. Maybe shaking hands with a DC that I was afraid of in the dream or something, sometimes merging with characters that I believe are shadow figures or anima figures. I just imagine merging, and visually they'll get sucked up into me and I can feel a sort of change inside.

      ____________________________________

      Hold up! Just did a quick google search for C G Jung Shared Dreaming and ran across this:

      I often wonder if Jung felt the collective unconscious was even greater and more complex — but he just didn’t want to go that far. Montague Ullman and Stanley Krippner’s work on Dream Telepathy provide a scientific basis for investigating this more deeply. On lucidipedia.com, I’m leading an experiment on dream telepathy, since I feel it may be the mechanism to explain mutual dreaming, and mutual lucid dreaming.
      Posted by Robert Waggoner as a comment under a very excellent post from 2009 called The Dream Theories of Carl Jung

      Robert Waggoner is President-Elect of the International Association for the Study of Dreams (IASD) and a summa cum laude graduate of Drake University with a degree in Psychology. For the past seven years, he has co-edited the quarterly journal, Lucid Dreaming Experience, and recently authored a remarkable book titled Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self.
      This says nothing about Jung's knowledge concerning lucid or shared dreams, but is interesting in the extreme to me, and I feel the need to follow up on it now. Thanks Sageous - as if I didn't already have enough on my plate!

      ____________________________________

      Ding Ding Ding!!!!
      (well, not about shared dreaming, but about lucidity)

      Just found this:

      Although Jung declared fairly early in his career that what we know as lucid dreaming was “an impossibility,” his later encounter with the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, and with his own increasingly lucid dreams, opened his mind further to this extraordinary state of awareness.
      Included in the article Lucid Dreaming as a Marker of the Evolution of Consciousness
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 02-07-2019 at 08:42 PM.
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      Some good Q&A concerning the ancient teachings of Jesus/Yeshua:





      I realize this stuff is for the few, not the many. I really should keep it strictly on this thread



      What is the difference between the Soul and the Spirit of Man?:

      The soul and the spirit are the two primary immaterial parts that Scripture ascribes to humanity. It can be confusing to attempt to discern the precise differences between the two. The word spirit refers only to the immaterial facet of humanity. Human beings have a spirit, but we are not spirits. However, in Scripture, only believers are said to be spiritually alive (1 Corinthians 2:11; Hebrews 4:12; James 2:26), while unbelievers are spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1–5; Colossians 2:13). In Paul’s writing, the spiritual is pivotal to the life of the believer (1 Corinthians 2:14; 3:1; Ephesians 1:3; 5:19; Colossians 1:9; 3:16). The spirit is the element in humanity that gives us the ability to have an intimate relationship with God. Whenever the word spirit is used, it refers to the immaterial part of humanity that “connects” with God, who Himself is spirit (John 4:24).

      The word soul can refer to both the immaterial and material aspects of humanity. Unlike human beings having a spirit, human beings are souls. In its most basic sense, the word soul means “life”; however, beyond this essential meaning, the Bible speaks of the soul in many contexts. One of these is in relation to humanity’s eagerness to sin (Luke 12:26). Human beings have a sinful nature, and our souls are tainted with sin. The soul, as the life essence of the body, is removed at the time of physical death (Genesis 35:18; Jeremiah 15:2). The soul, as with the spirit, is the center of many spiritual and emotional experiences (Job 30:25; Psalm 43:5; Jeremiah 13:17). The word soul can refer to the whole person, whether alive on earth or in the afterlife.

      The soul and the spirit are connected, but separable (Hebrews 4:12). The soul is the essence of humanity’s being; it is who we are. The spirit is the immaterial part of humanity that connects with God.
      Source

      I've also read somewhere that the soul remains in us while we're alive, but spirit is the part that can break away and fly up to commune with God, or with Angels (who I suppose are sort of like spirits of God that fly down to commune with US.

      I don't know if this is different in the orthodox or early Christianity - would need to research that more. But it's useful to know the meanings of the words, especially to a former atheist like me, who never learned it before. Of course, as everything in scripture, this is To Be Taken Metaphorically to a large extent, but at the same time it's much more real and immediate than the mainstream forms of Christianity, in which God and the Devil are much more remote and abstract, rather than living parts of us (and of the world I suppose - need to look more into that) that metaphorically stand one on each shoulder, whispering their counsel into our ears, and it's up to us each day, each moment, to decide which to listen to.

      I've also come to understand that Heaven and Hell are arranged the way they are - above and below the earth (the ego), in a sort of psychological hierarchy. A symbolic pattern positing the greater or higher nature of Heaven (risen, ascended) and the lesser or lower nature of Hell (fallen, descended). For those with eyes to see (mind educated in esoteric meanings) and ears to hear (heart open to the Teachings) this refers to the Kingdom within - be it Heaven or Hell, It refers to our current state of being. If we've been living right, not sinning much and atoning for the sins we have committed, and acting from God's counsel rather then the other guy's, then we exist in a state of Heaven, or God's grace. And vice versa of course for Hell and the Devil's domain.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 02-08-2019 at 06:43 PM.

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