Well, the brain-in-a-vat theory is much different from a lucid dream in many ways. |
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My fault. I misunderstood the premise of the question. Where it's relevant in reference to AI, though, is that, before the artificially intelligent, bio-mechanical brain is given a body where its senses may be internalized through audio/visual systems (like microphones and lenses), it would be necessary to figure out if the brain in a vat could figure out that it's a brain in a vat, and not just give in to the direction that it's experiencing the world as it really is. If it's able to do this, it shows a capacity to be able to over-ride initial parameters. It could think for itself on a level that is completely outside the scope of what would be intended. If this is possible, it would add a new level of caution as to whether or not creating such a level of self-awareness would be a good idea to replicate. |
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Last edited by Oneironaut Zero; 10-05-2007 at 12:59 AM.
Dream Journal: Dreamwalker Chronicles Latest Entry: 01/02/2016 - "Hallway to Haven" (Lucid)(Or see the very best of my journal entries @ dreamwalkerchronicles.blogspot)
Well, the brain-in-a-vat theory is much different from a lucid dream in many ways. |
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So this theory is saying what if you are nothing more than a brain being fed... electric impulses. |
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Dream Journal: Dreamwalker Chronicles Latest Entry: 01/02/2016 - "Hallway to Haven" (Lucid)(Or see the very best of my journal entries @ dreamwalkerchronicles.blogspot)
I for one do not agree. But I think the entire discussion does miss the point of the thought experiment. The point of the exercise is not whether or not our brains might actually BE in a vat. Rather it puts to question how far we can trust our senses. |
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Michael; no offence (I mean it) but you don't understand this idea at all, either just due to a simple missing of the point or due to a huge misunderstanding of neuroscience. The signals from our eyes are simply electrical. The whole idea of the brain in a vat theory is that our vision, for example, is fed fake impulses which make us see a fake reality. This is doable. If you managed to wire up every neuron that involves your eyes, for example, and then sent the correct frequency of electrical impulses down those neurons which are normally sent when we see red, then we would indeed perceive red. |
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Last edited by Xei; 10-05-2007 at 06:09 PM.
I understand the concept. I understand how it would work more now too. Before it seemed to me that it would be impossible to see without eyes etc.. Now it seems gnomes theory would be correct. But this theory is very stupid and I don't see why it's even being discussed. |
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I don't think you're taking the theory quite far enough. |
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I'm sorry for double posting, I know how much that annoys some people. I forgot to multi-quote, so please excuse me. |
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Don't worry, I understand the theory totally, I'm just trying to analyse your perspective on little bits of it. Which I've gotta say is pretty weird to me... I've heard people say exactly the same kind of thing before and it really troubles me. |
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I understand completely where you're coming from. The problem is, we only ever have a subjective view of the objective world. It's kind of hard to explain, I'll try to give an example to one of your questions to better explain myself. |
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The point is, in theory, you are a a brain in a jar of stuff. This brain is fed electrical impulses that create sensations. We do not need effectors, receptors or a CNS (Central Nervous System). So we don't need eyes to experience sught. We think we do because that is what the "mad-scientist" or "AI" or whatever makes us believe. |
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It's more of a theoretical question really. It's just another way of saying, 'how do we know that we're not part of The Matrix'? That's was the whole philosophical premise of the first movie; ontology. |
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i concur |
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I'm not so sure about this, though. These things happen to people all the time. We call it "dementia," "psychosis," "hallucination," or some other label of mental difficiency. Those people who see the world different than the way that we have accepted as "objective," are either placed on a couch to be evaluated and influenced to return to the "normal" way of seeing the world, or wrapped in straight-jackets and thrown in padded rooms. |
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Last edited by Oneironaut Zero; 10-10-2007 at 02:59 PM.
Dream Journal: Dreamwalker Chronicles Latest Entry: 01/02/2016 - "Hallway to Haven" (Lucid)(Or see the very best of my journal entries @ dreamwalkerchronicles.blogspot)
I will recommend to anyone to read the science fiction novel The Futurological Congress by Stanislaw Lem. |
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A generous heart, kind speech, and a life of service
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The spine is the mind, not the brain. |
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You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light.
That's pretty much how I see it too. If I think of myself as the only living creature then everything becomes pointless and absurd. Perhaps that's what the existentialists were driving at? But when I consider that my space is shared with other organisms the dynamics change somewhat. The interesting part is that they too may think they're the only creatures alive too and they too have come to the same conclusion as me. Which leads me to wonder whether the physical world is in fact some kind of shared illusion. The starting point for inquiry needs to be subjective conscious experience and an investigation of the unconscious. Behaviourists have it wrong IMO!!! |
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I learnt this during my NLP studies, so i don't have a link. |
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You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light.
Did someone say "Matrix" yet? I am going to say it. |
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“What a peculiar privilege has this little agitation of the brain which we call 'thought'” -Hume
Jeebus... how did I miss out on this debate? Looking very interesting indeed. |
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Edit: I just wanted to note that it urks me when people say theories are irrelevant. Every theory should be taken into consideration. When it is mulled over and investigated, then the results should be kept in mind. |
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Last edited by O'nus; 11-01-2007 at 02:58 PM. Reason: Addition
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