Thread: Fate Exists

Originally Posted by The Tao

It depends... Since theres no way to change a previous path, and what you choose is what your stuck with (usually), theres no way to see what would've happened if you took an alternate path.

Actually, the lines from this song comes to mind when I think of this:

"I chose my own fate, I drove by the fork in the road and went straight."

If there IS such a thing as fate, I think it only merely presents the opportunity to do something, but the choice is still ours to make. But even that is contradictory, because every choice we make, influences another choice available, and thus, if choices are ours to make, then fate doesn't exist, just probable outcomes.

OR fate does exist and determines everything you do and say. So, when you decide something, it's not really you deciding, but all the knowledge and experience that converged into you making that decision. Let's all remember our brain (responsible for our actions) doesn't break any laws of physics.

You pretty much replied to your own post regarding quantum physics.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Tell me, how exactly could a series of events be 'set in motion' in order to cause a deterministic reality in a beginningless time frame?

If you take it, beggining and end are human concepts made to simplify things. Tell, me, does an egg "start" to fall at the moment it is dropped, or as all the events converged into it being dropped? Actually, even the moment of the drop is impossible to determine in the tiem scale, because of infinite-small numbers. Does your life "end" when your heart stops beating? When you stop breathing? When all your brain cells stop working? When you are buried? When all the matter that once formed your body is detached? It has no end, really.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

You pretty much replied to your own post regarding quantum physics.



If you take it, beggining and end are human concepts made to simplify things. Tell, me, does an egg "start" to fall at the moment it is dropped, or as all the events converged into it being dropped? Actually, even the moment of the drop is impossible to determine in the tiem scale, because of infinite-small numbers. Does your life "end" when your heart stops beating? When you stop breathing? When all your brain cells stop working? When you are buried? When all the matter that once formed your body is detached? It has no end, really.

This post is useless. In all of your examples, you gave examples of things with finite time frames and I have no idea what the first sentence is supposed to mean, except for maybe some backwards appeal to authority, with me being the authority and you vaguely mentioning I proved myself wrong.

So tell me, how is quantum mechanics new, and if it is; do you doubt the validity of antibacterials and electricity?

Originally Posted by Kromoh

OR fate does exist and determines everything you do and say. So, when you decide something, it's not really you deciding, but all the knowledge and experience that converged into you making that decision. Let's all remember our brain (responsible for our actions) doesn't break any laws of physics.

Your every response begs the question that fate exists. You come up with no evidence except for those that assume determinism is right, without giving evidence for determinism.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

How is it relatively new? Relative to what? Its been around almost as long as the light bulb, which was invented in 1879; just 21 years before Max Planck published his first paper on the subject. Do you doubt our current understanding of harnessing electricity?

The Quantum Theory is new in terms of: it is the most recent or top branch of Physics at the moment.

I don't think it really matters how long it's been around. The Quantum Theory doesn't seem to be well developed enough to talk about it. Where is this theory causing confusion, doubt or dissolution? Because it doesn't seem completed or polished, so to speak.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Your every response begs the question that fate exists. You come up with no evidence except for those that assume determinism is right, without giving evidence for determinism.

I deeply believe my explanations up to here and the thread I made some time ago and provided the link here show all the evidence there is. I'm really bored so I won't mind repeating things, no offence lol

Do you have a choice?

Choice is an illusion, all the thoughts and experiences you have collected so far will determine which answer you'll give to each situation.

Life is an illusion too. You see what your brain tells you to see and that's that.

Flanders, your initial sentence is right. but the second is a bit strange - our brains don't "tell us" to see things (unless you said it metaphorically). Our brain is what gives us conscience. Being consicous, we experience the things that our brain brings to consciousness (e.g. hunger, pain, emotion, sensorial input etc)

I didn't read all the posts in this thread, hopefully this hasn't been mentioned before:

A kind of weird outlook on fate that I've held for quite some time is that fate inevitably exists, though not in the same sense as many believe.

It's easier explained with an example: you are driving down the road and you come to a fork. Left or right. You, for whatever reason, go left. This is leading to your fate. How? Unless you have a time machine (forgive me if you do but I'm going to assume you don't ) you could never go back and change your decision and instead go right. You have made your decision to go left and must accept the results of this decision (lol turning around, returning to the fork, and going right doesn't count for obvious reasons). Unless you have a time machine or have somehow had your fate disclosed to you (which would itself prove fate) there is no way you could possibly avoid that final conclusion. There are infinite paths but you can only choose one. That's why it's a decision.

You could run a red light shortly after the fork and get killed by another car passing through the intersection. That would be your fate. You could stop at the red light and continue your life after it turns green. That would be your fate. As I have said, unless you could turn back time and remake that decision you will reach your fate. Technically, even if you turned back time and chose the opposite path, that would still be your fate.

For the most part, you're in control of the outcome of your life but ultimately you can only have one outcome, which would be your "fate".

I really hope I've explained that well enough for it to make sense to everyone.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

How is it relatively new? Relative to what?

Xaq...sometimes when someone says relatively new they mean that they haven't studied it enough.

You say relative to what.

Lets look at the term 100%, which would encompass all of the information.

Now...lets start with electricity. Lest say we know...about 80% of the information we could know about electricity.

Now Quantum physics...Lets say we know about 20% of quantum physics.

Now lets take a look at a number to represent maximum for electricity and quantum physics.

Electricity. 80 out of a 100 = 80%
Quantum physics. 80 out of 400 = 20%

This is the "relative to what."


As for choice...

I heard a good explanation on choice the other day...

Either things are determined, and we don't have choice, or things are random, and we still don't have choice.

The problem is, you saying 'lets say we know 20%..." is not an accurate depiction. In fact, neither is saying we understand '80%' of electricity. We know what we know and both theories are capable of accurately predicting observed phenomena. There really is no way of knowing how much there is to learn on the subject of electricity or quantum mechanics; especially since our knowledge of quantum mechanics has expanded what we think there is to know about electricity. I think the only sentence I actually agree with is the first one. People on this forum may decide to discredit quantum mechanics or any other aspect of modern scientific theory only because they do not personally know anything about it and so have a hard time accepting it as an answer.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

The problem is, you saying 'lets say we know 20%..." is not an accurate depiction. In fact, neither is saying we understand '80%' of electricity. We know what we know and both theories are capable of accurately predicting observed phenomena. There really is no way of knowing how much there is to learn on the subject of electricity or quantum mechanics; especially since our knowledge of quantum mechanics has expanded what we think there is to know about electricity. I think the only sentence I actually agree with is the first one. People on this forum may decide to discredit quantum mechanics or any other aspect of modern scientific theory only because they do not personally know anything about it and so have a hard time accepting it as an answer.

So you would say that quantum physics is as simple as electricity?

The point wasn't that we know 80% of electricity, or 20% of quantum physics, these were made up data that had nothing to do with how much we actually know...

The point was that you can spend the same number of years on one subject, and know more about, than another subject that you have spent the same number of years on.

Lets say that someone was sent to another planet that was habitable by humans, and they were alone. One day they hit their head and got amnesia, and only remembered bas things like how to walk, and language, etc.

Now this person found two things they wanted to study, because he found them interesting. Lets say they were animals. He spends equal time studying the two different animals, however he happens to know more on one than the other. Maybe one was in the ocean and one was on land, two very different subjects in difficulty to understand.

But this is pointless...like I said, in terms of fate...

You are going to do what your going to do...I mean...I don't really think it is possible for anything to be random...because then it wouldn't make sense. For any action there is a cause... Drop a pencil...people will say, oh well it could fall anyway...but that isn't true...it can only fall one way, and it is determined by what it fell from, what distance it covers, what planet it is on, what angle it was dropped, and what it lands on.

Originally Posted by Anonimus

It's easier explained with an example: you are driving down the road and you come to a fork. Left or right. You, for whatever reason, go left. This is leading to your fate. How? Unless you have a time machine (forgive me if you do but I'm going to assume you don't ) you could never go back and change your decision and instead go right. You have made your decision to go left and must accept the results of this decision (lol turning around, returning to the fork, and going right doesn't count for obvious reasons). Unless you have a time machine or have somehow had your fate disclosed to you (which would itself prove fate) there is no way you could possibly avoid that final conclusion. There are infinite paths but you can only choose one. That's why it's a decision.

Our thoughts build and direct our lives, as every thought whether good or bad, brings us to a new direction or vision. This happens millions of times a day, we meet forks all the time.

Originally Posted by Sandform

Either things are determined, and we don't have choice, or things are random, and we still don't have choice.

I think nothing is random, and you later think so. Things only appear random until the operating principles are completely uncovered.