Thread: You ever wonder if there really is a God?

Fine, bradybaker, I won't let you have the "analogy" dodge.

Originally posted by bradybaker

The reality that we observe reveals to us not a warm and friendly place where everyone can just get along, but a cold and bitter place where everyone is constantly fighting for survival. We just happen to be better at surviving than almost anything else, so we get this big ego and start to think that the universe revolves around whatever we want it to.

Your first sentence presents no analogy. You do not say reality is like \"a cold and bitter place,\" you say observation of reality \"reveals\" such a place. This statement of yours, and your elaboration on it in the next sentence, say nothing concrete about the reality you're observing, but only reveal where you're observing it from. You are mistaking the subject for the object, the question for the answer.

I can only reassert that the religions and philosophies we're discussing ARE NOT ANSWERS, but questions: hypotheses, tools for generating data. More specifically, they are allegorical and metaphorical constructs, together with prescribed practices, designed to bring our attention to a reality that is not communicable in either sound bytes or long treatises. Yes, some people cling to religious doctrines as if they were answers in and of themselves, just as others latch onto a set of cynically inflected rationalist beliefs, and cease to investigate their experience any further. Both are understandable positions in a confusing world, but neither has much to say about what is true.

When it comes to reality, or truth, little can be said about it. We can only observe the evidence around us, and constantly re-evaluate the means of observation--our mind and senses. It's not something we'll ever figure out, but we can live our lives in relation to it.

Originally posted by bradybaker
I'd like you to respond to this, Taosaur: \"We just happen to be better at surviving than almost anything else, so we get this big ego and start to think that the universe revolves around whatever we want it to.\"

I like that you follow your assessment that this is not a place "where everyone can just get along" with the assertion that "We (emphasis added) just happen to be better at surviving than almost anything else." Cooperation, or learning to "just get along," is how our species has survived so successfully. We are "getting along" in larger groups now than at any point in the past. Continuing to expand this cooperation is how we will survive into the future. Failure to do so is our only serious threat.

This is what my experience has shown to be true so far.

Let's calm down a little o_o;.

I'm atheist. As far as I am concerned, there is no god, no creator, no ultimate being, no heaven, no hell, etc etc. When you die, your brain dies, your entire body dies, and you just sit there. Nothing happens. You don't get a freaky soul thing appear and go to get judged or something.

I think that we, naturally, like to give reasons as to why things happened. One of the things we naturally like to give a reason is how we got here in the first place; and some people think that there is a "creator", and he/she/it put us here, and some people like to think there was a big bang, and we came here by..well, because a little atom thing exploded, basically.

Usually there is a reason for things. Maybe how we got here has no reason.

Perhaps, and I'm just thinking here, we just cannot bring ourselves to believe that we are not as important as we like to think. I mean, the universe is something like a million googol's long or something, and we are what...6 foot. If we could zoom out really, really far so we could see lots/all of the universe, we would labelled as small dot upon a small dot upon a small dot upon a small dot.

Because that sounds so despressing and pretty sad, we try to comfort ourselves believing that there is a god who cares about us and stuff, and we get to go to heaven/nirivana/whatever you call it. And since other people believe it, that just makes it all the more plausible, right?

That's just me thinking. Oh well, it's only like 70 years until I get to find out what happens next.

I'll leave you with something to have a moan about. I quote my father:

I've been raised as a christian all my life, but now I'm 40, I think all religion is bullshit. All the apoclypases or \"end of world\" scenarios all have the general theme that A) everything blows up B) you have to believe in that religion to be spared C) If you don't your dead.[/b]

That's depressing Kaniaz
I don't like religion at all but I love spirituality...Makes me a calmer, happier person

Ok Taosaur, I apologize about the whole analogy thing. I promise to never ever confuse my objects and subjects or questions and answers ever again. However, regardless of my erroneous use of the English language, my point remains the same. You seem to be sidestepping the actual issue with all of your grammatical mumbo-jumbo.

I like that you follow your assessment that this is not a place \"where everyone can just get along\" with the assertion that \"We (emphasis added) just happen to be better at surviving than almost anything else.\" Cooperation, or learning to \"just get along,\" is how our species has survived so successfully. We are \"getting along\" in larger groups now than at any point in the past. Continuing to expand this cooperation is how we will survive into the future. Failure to do so is our only serious threat.[/b]

You just perfectly illustrated the point that I was attempting to make, humans have way too big of an ego, for some reason we think we're special. When I make the assertion that this is not a world "where everyone can just get along", you immediately assume that I'm referring to humans getting along with each other. Obviously mankind is getting along just fine. I was actually talking about our relationships with other species and their relationships with each other.

Take a typical scene from the African Savannah:
Cheetah is hungry, cheetah sees antelope, cheetah chases antelope, cheetah catches antelope, cheetah begins devouring it, hyena smells food, hyena chases cheetah away, hyena gets a free meal.

That is just one of infinite examples showing how cut-throat our world actually is. However, since we have sheltered ourselves from this more primitive existence we think that we're the greatest thing going in the universe.

But I have news for you, "You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else" ---Tyler Durden

I hope you understand that you're just a bunch of carbon molecules arranged in a fancy pattern, just like that tree you see out your window or that dirt you see on the ground. So you're trying to tell me that just because your carbon molecules are arranged differently than the tree or the dirt that you have a soul and the dirt doesn't? Sounds pretty far-fetched to me. Our bodies are aobut 90 or 95% water. Does your bottle of Dasani have a soul? It's mostly water too, and the plastic bottle is a bunch of carbon.

I wasn't attacking your grammar, bradybaker, just pointing out that I never twisted your words. As far as the subject/object, question/answer issue, I'm saying your criteria of true/false (i.e. one religion/philosophy must be true, all others false) is irrelevant to the subject we're discussing, just as it would be irrelevant to the question portion of a math problem.

As for human egos, I agree--they're friggin huge. We've done a lot of damage under the supposition that we're God's special children, or that might makes right. When I talk about cooperation, I'm not limiting that to the human species, either. Inter-species cooperation works a little differently, however. When a cheetah kills an antelope, they are getting along. It's not great for that antelope, but cheetahs and antelopes as a whole benefit from the interaction. Characterizing the situation as "cut-throat" is, again, not an observation of reality but a judgement upon it. Everything within the system relies on everything else to live.

I never said anything about a "soul," and you won't find me saying anything about it. Nor did I set humans above the other stuff of the earth. I would point out, however, that the water and carbon of living things isn't simply sitting there--it's doing quite a lot. So is inanimate matter, if not as quickly. To me, human consciousness is an extension of the organizing principle behind all form and substance. Because of our capacity to communicate and organize, we have become by far the most elaborate expression of that principle on this planet. As such, it will go better for everyone and everything if we pay attention to what we're doing. I don't see anything "cold and bitter," "cut-throat," or "warm and friendly" about the situation--things simply are as they are, and the wisest course seems to be working for the good of all, human or otherwise.[/quote]

i beleave in a supream being not nesesaraly god for all we know god is a woman and yes i belives in a god i must for i am one with the cheese dont laugh at me just becouse im lds

I too believe in a supreme being or rather a supreme "consciousness", that everything that lives is connected to. We are all a spark of that supreme consciousness created in order to experience individuality and to become co-creators. I believe that we all come from the same place or supreme consciousness. That is how God exists everywhere and in everything. All matter is an expression (or a part of God).

Originally posted by Jin
Yes, but HOW DO THEY GET THE WEENIE INTO THE CORNY EXTERIOR?! :shock:

Good Burger? :D

Can everyone clearly state thier definition of God? Because the way Brady's explaining it, I dont believe in a God like that either. But I do believe in God as a word for "The One and Only Everything". If you believe God to be some being seprate from us with immense powers, Id say thats ridiculous, because one can only have supremem power over itself. So for god to have supremem pwoer over the universe, he must in-fact, be the universe.

I would agree in that He is everywhere at once, but that does not necessitate that He "IS" the universe, since the universe is only a small part of His creation and He transcends his creation.

Faith in God is partly a gift from God... not simply some willful determination that we make of our own volition.

I happen to believe (like bradybaker to some extent) that the subjective approach is self-contradictory and illogical and does not work.

I believe that truth is revealed by God to those whom He desires to reveal it to. This is consistant with his omnipotence since nothing is outside of his control or his plan.
That being said, this is where I would disagree totally with brady:

\"Faith\" arises when people get frustrated and say to themselves, \"I have no idea, how about I just go with the first b.s. answer that pops into my mind.\" [/b]

Also regarding socialization (being raised to believe a certain system of belief)... Some people, being raised in a "religious"/spiritual home turn away from their parents' teaching. The opposite is also true (Some turn towards religion or towards God since they had no exposure to such teaching as children). Therefore, it would be incorrect to make a generalization such as "everyone simply follows what they were raised with."

True atheism cannot exist since we have no evidence that disproves God's existence. Self-proclaimed "atheists" are really just agnostics (many of whom happen to be anti-religious in their faith).

I used to wonder if there was a God all the time... Now I cannot help but simply wonder that in his power, glory, and omniscience he still considers those who call upon his name and desire to know him in truth.

Here's one favorite Biblical passage of mine highlighting how the knowledge of Truth and faith go hand in hand:
I Corinthians 2:6-14
"We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" 10but God has revealed this to us by his Spirit.
11The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We who believe have not received the spirit of this world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak: not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. "

Oh and AMethyst: kudos...

Originally posted by evangel

True atheism cannot exist...

Not to you, no, because you're already assuming there is in fact a God and that everyone else must be, on some level, aware of that fact.

...since we have no evidence that disproves God's existence. Self-proclaimed \"atheists\" are really just agnostics (many of whom happen to be anti-religious in their faith). *[/b]

I won't try to tell you my point of view, because I have learned through experience to translate the argument you just made as "I have totally disabled my capacity to see other points of view."

Good luck with that.

well, you cant prove there isnt a god, but you cant prove that there is either.

speaking in a christian context (as opposed to muslim, ect) god said that we would have free will, that we would have to walk by faith and not by sight. Thus, if sit could be proved god was real, the whole basis of faith would be undermined. So either you believe or you dont, its not a logical thing.

Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div>

Faith in God is partly a gift from God... not simply some willful determination that we make of our own volition.[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-evangel
I believe that truth is revealed by God to those whom He desires to reveal it to.

You trying to prove one unknown with another. You're say \"faith\" in something that might not exist comes from that very thing that may not exist. You are trying to prove God's existence by assuming that God exists.

Originally posted by evangel
True atheism cannot exist since we have no evidence that disproves God's existence.

Please read the article on atheism in this forum, here's an exerpt regarding your comment:

"Ultimately though, it's not necessary to prove that God doesn't exist. It's up to the God believers to prove that their god or gods exist, for they are making the assertion of the existence of something that is not immediately visible. For example, if I were to claim that there is an invisible ten-foot tall pink unicorn in this room, and demand that you feed it, you could justifiably expect some sort of hard proof. The same concept of proof lies with those who claim that an invisible, immaterial god exists. Thus, even if all proofs of the non-existence of God were to fail, it would still be necessary for thiests to prove the actual existence of god, if they expect us to take them seriously."

Lastly, why do you quote the Bible? It wasn't written by people trying to record history, it was written by people trying to convert others to Christianity.

"Where is God" isn't the tough question. The tough question is "where is God not?"

Originally posted by Aneas
\"Where is God\" isn't the tough question. The tough question is \"where is God not?\"

Neither of those are tough questions.

Arent those both the same quesitons? Cleverly phrased perhaps, but it doesnt really make sense.

You are right Awaken, they are not tough question. Still, I would be interested to hear your answers.

The questions popped into my mind a few times, but I always push it back into the greasy void without even comprehending it, let alone attempting to answer it. People who do attempt to answer such futile questions usually end up either contracting some form of schizophrenia or end up getting lost in the dark woods of unanswerable questions and start wishing they let curiousity get the better of them. Ignorance all the way. I am quite happy I took a happy Yes approach to God, uninformed or otherwise.

Originally posted by Aneas
\"Where is God\" isn't the tough question. The tough question is \"where is God not?\"

Are you trying to prove that God exists by saying that God is everything? Why do religious people insists on trying to prove one unknown with another unknown?

Originally posted by Identity X
Ignorance all the way. I am quite happy I took a happy Yes approach to God, uninformed or otherwise.

Wow... *shakes head* ...I actually pity you. Unless you are being sarcastic, which I sincerely hope is the case.

Originally posted by Aneas
You are right Awaken, they are not tough question. Still, I would be interested to hear your answers.

Where is God: Everywhere.
Where is God not: Nowhere.

Here's my delusional mind :
Of course, it's all about how one perceives existence in the first place. I don't believe in a God which takes any particular shape/form...I believe existence itself is God, and so my conclusion is that God is everything and everywhere. These words I'm typing are manifestations of God...

As for where God isn't, well, simply enough, it isn't nowhere (double-negative). Wherever we are able to perceive existence, we are part of God and part of its life energy. Without God, there is no such thing as existence.

*emerges from the shadows*

Our bodies are aobut 90 or 95% water. Does your bottle of Dasani have a soul? It's mostly water too, and the plastic bottle is a bunch of carbon[/b]

lmao

*disappears, never to be seen here again*

Originally posted by Awaken


Where is God: Everywhere.
Where is God not: Nowhere.

Here's my delusional mind :
Of course, it's all about how one perceives existence in the first place. I don't believe in a God which takes any particular shape/form...I believe existence itself is God, and so my conclusion is that God is everything and everywhere. These words I'm typing are manifestations of God...

As for where God isn't, well, simply enough, it isn't nowhere (double-negative). Wherever we are able to perceive existence, we are part of God and part of its life energy. Without God, there is no such thing as existence.

Exactly! Where is anythign but God? People always talk about a great spiritual nothingness outside of heaven,hell, and earth but why would that be there? Thats why I always come back to the same conclusion, if God is everythign, everywhere, and all that we're saying he is here, how can you not worshp him?

Bradybaker, I find it rather annoying to be referred to as "religious people". You presume to know where my thoughts are concerning spirituality. I do not confine myself to any religion. I am who I am because I have had the good fortune and freedom to walk many paths and participate in many rites, orthodox as well as "pagan" in nature. I walked these paths not with the intention of seeking, but merely to journey and experience. At 39 years of age I base my knowledge on factual experience and not what I learn about life from surfing the internet. I have been LDing since age 6 and have had over 30,000 lucid dreams. I dream Every time I sleep, even if it is only a 10 minute nap. My consciousness is always "on" which has been both a blessing and a curse. There is nothing that I have not done while dreaming, and I have a great appreciation for the creative process.

Originally posted by Aneas
Bradybaker, I find it rather annoying to be referred to as \"religious people\". You presume to know where my thoughts are concerning spirituality. I do not confine myself to any religion. I am who I am because I have had the good fortune and freedom to walk many paths and participate in many rites, orthodox as well as \"pagan\" in nature.

I apologize, I'll use the term \"spiritual people\" from now on

Originally posted by Aneas
At 39 years of age I base my knowledge on factual experience and not what I learn about life from surfing the internet.

Experience, by its very nature, is far from "factual".