Thread: Define yourself

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

Truly see it from your own intimate perspective, not just some extrapilation of some teaching. Define it as you see it personally.

NonDualistic, when I have pondered over this deeply, it is hard to separate the "me" from the cumulative compilation of everything that is the ego. Without the extrapolation of what "I" perceive to be past, present or future just remains a stream of consciousness. I guess we all have individual characteristics and traits, habits. But they were all derived from the beginning of some influence or another no?

Just wanted to point out that I and me are the same thing. Different words for the same meaning. Gramatical difference.

Originally Posted by Howie

NonDualistic, when I have pondered over this deeply, it is hard to separate the "me" from the cumulative compilation of everything that is the ego.

Hard to separate, yes, but is it really seperate? Thats how I began, trying to divide with this notion of not "me" and yes, "me".

The thing I have run into is its all "me".

Like you seemingly, I have this notion to separate "me" from that which is labeled "ego". I used to percieve it( the point of separation) as a divide, a space, a split. Something with the quality of a true separation. But I see now its not true.
What I see now is more like a line scribed denoting a difference rather than a divide.
I am that which is extended out into the ego, wearing it, being it. However, this ego state, this body, its all changing. Everything on that side of the scribed line is in a state of perpetual change.

This is difficult to put to words. I "see" what it is, this "me". It is the "seeing" itself, the "view". Perception itself, alive, conscious, embracing a means to express. Embracing this ego, extending outward into it. Becoming lost in it, limited by it, caged in it. Then, beginning to find its way back out again.

I sit looking at it. I used to work on attachments on a one by one basis. Cars, women, sex, etc etc, but then I began to see that there was/is really only one attachment. The physical person, the body, the psyche, the ego, its experience. All the other attachments were little more than aspects branching off of that one.

So here I sit, looking, witnessing. Thats where I am, here now. I know there is more beyond this blinded view. I know "I" am not that which is being witnessed, or at least it is not "all of me", just only a small part, and a transitory part at that.

What I find is that this view is tied to this point of reference, this that I am witnessing. Intuition tells me that this point of reference can be shifted, changed, expanded. It can be moved in different ways.

This is where i am at now, looking...

What do you think?

"Me & Mine" are my everyday aspects that I think make up Mysteryhunter
"I" - is the whole and when I peer into it, it/s evil_scary_beautiful and if I am brave enough will attemp to make known. If I am successful, "I" will eat "me/mine".

I am a self aware piece of animated Flesh with the ability to question my own existence.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

Hard to separate, yes, but is it really seperate? Thats how I began, trying to divide with this notion of not "me" and yes, "me".

The thing I have run into is its all "me".

Like you seemingly, I have this notion to separate "me" from that which is labeled "ego". I used to perceive it( the point of separation) as a divide, a space, a split. Something with the quality of a true separation. But I see now its not true.
What I see now is more like a line scribed denoting a difference rather than a divide.
I am that which is extended out into the ego, wearing it, being it. However, this ego state, this body, its all changing. Everything on that side of the scribed line is in a state of perpetual change.

This is difficult to put to words. I "see" what it is, this "me". It is the "seeing" itself, the "view". Perception itself, alive, conscious, embracing a means to express. Embracing this ego, extending outward into it. Becoming lost in it, limited by it, caged in it. Then, beginning to find its way back out again.

I sit looking at it. I used to work on attachments on a one by one basis. Cars, women, sex, etc etc, but then I began to see that there was/is really only one attachment. The physical person, the body, the psyche, the ego, its experience. All the other attachments were little more than aspects branching off of that one.

So here I sit, looking, witnessing. Thats where I am, here now. I know there is more beyond this blinded view. I know "I" am not that which is being witnessed, or at least it is not "all of me", just only a small part, and a transitory part at that.

What I find is that this view is tied to this point of reference, this that I am witnessing. Intuition tells me that this point of reference can be shifted, changed, expanded. It can be moved in different ways.

This is where i am at now, looking...

What do you think?

Wow.
That redirected my thoughts many different ways. It all makes sense to me though. The way you have described it. I think.

So you have the old saying "live in the now"- Zen masters, Buddhas and the like claim they exist without an ego or any Me involved. Which is really just eluding yourself to think so? I think you have described that very uniquely.
As I understand you to say is that we are an IT, ME, an I! That there is no way around that. There really doesn't have to be. But realizing the perspectives to which the "me" is experience is the nature of the event. Or the event of being witnessed and perceived.
Is that close?

Any time the ego or self comes into play usually takes me to my inquiry about consciousness itself. Just perception. Perception directed to any given thing at any given time always changing with not possible limit to variables. Just a "transitory part at that."

Individual perception alone tell us that there is a me.
Does someone liberated, or what ever they want to call themselves lacking empirical judgement? Any subjective analysis? How could they relate to personal if is is all just perceived as one streaming line of consciousness?

your·self (yr-slf, yôr-, yr-, yr-)
pron.
1. That one identical with you.
a. Used reflexively as the direct or indirect object of a verb or as the object of a preposition: Did you buy yourself a gift?
b. Used for emphasis: You yourself were certain of the facts.
c. Used in an absolute construction: In office yourself, you helped push the bill along.
2. Your normal or healthy condition: Are you feeling yourself again? See Usage Note at myself.


The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Originally Posted by Howie

Wow.
That redirected my thoughts many different ways. It all makes sense to me though. The way you have described it. I think.

So you have the old saying "live in the now"- Zen masters, Buddhas and the like claim they exist without an ego or any Me involved. Which is really just eluding yourself to think so? I think you have described that very uniquely.
As I understand you to say is that we are an IT, ME, an I! That there is no way around that. There really doesn't have to be. But realizing the perspectives to which the "me" is experience is the nature of the event. Or the event of being witnessed and perceived.
Is that close?

Its not merely an elusion, though that seems to be required to initially break free from this physical cage the perception is locked into.

Let me put it like I did to a friend of mine yesterday here locally, a friend who is of the same mindset I am.

I have incorporated imagery as metaphor in working with my perception, my "view" as the case is. Much like I am understanding the imagery in my dreams at night. Initially intuition had me using spherical shapes, and cirlces. Lately however I have been using a image of a balance beam.

On the far right of the beam there is the physical "me". The human form, psyche, and ego. At this end of the beam there is the most distinct notion of being a independant conscious individual, seperate from everyone and everything else that is percieved.
On the far left of the beam there is the most basic awareness, free of ego and of consciousness itself. There is no notion of "I" at all, as there is no notion of Self or other to foster an "I" sense. ( and yes, I have experienced this perspective myself, tasted it for all intents and purposes) All there is is a view of awareness, a seeing of all that is , as it is, all one thing. No divisions.

We, in our human mindset, try and concieve of being on one end or the other, or at any given point in between. We just dont fathom that we are actually all points of perception on that beam all at the same time, and that our "conscious" perception can be moved anywhere along that beam. Or, maybe its better stated that our consciousness can be moved anyhwere along that beam, and that time itself is irrelavant to the beam or the perception.

( this is new ground here for me You are getting this "right off the top of me head" in real time )

In this, there is the notion that consciousness itself is the focusing agent of perception. That consciousness goes through a "evolutionary" process of some sorts. Being tied into form through conscutively higher forms of living things until self awareness is cultivated and then that self awareness evolves to the point where it can free itself from limitations of the cage of its physical form. IE "see" or become consciously aware of the entirety of the balance beam. ( this is getting most interesting,... for me anyhow)

One begins to realize that they are all points of perspecticve along that beam, including both ends. The notion arises here that once one realizes all this, truly knows it, that the ego part of the consciousness falls away, as it is merely only one of many points along that beam, one of many points of perception. That the consciousness is merely tied to the ego only when it is focused on that particular point on the beam.

Any time the ego or self comes into play usually takes me to my inquiry about consciousness itself. Just perception. Perception directed to any given thing at any given time always changing with not possible limit to variables. Just a "transitory part at that."

This is about where I went just above isnt it? If I understand you correctly?

Individual perception alone tell us that there is a me.
Does someone liberated, or what ever they want to call themselves lacking empirical judgement? Any subjective analysis? How could they relate to personal if is is all just perceived as one streaming line of consciousness?

This goes back to what I said of consciousness being the focusing agent of the "view" . What it is that focuses the view on/from any particular "point of perception" along the beam in my metaphorical analogy.

My friend pointed out to me that he sees kind of the same way, but in his model he states suggests that the beam is circular, where both ends meet. I clearly didnt understand as he left, but he kind of suggested I would figure it out. I spent the last 24 hours thinking on this and heres what I came up with.

If you lay a wheel flat on its face on the ground and step back aways, it looks like a beam, like my balance beam. When you stand over it looking down you see that it is a circle. from there I began to see it as a sphere, 2 dimensional at first , then I began seeing it as three and for dimensional.

Follow along here for a miniute and be patient with me...

INstead of the balance being determned by one end or the other of a beam or a flat circle, what if the balance is between the center of a sphere and its outer edges?
And... what if that shere is like the sun or a star? Where there is the core body and from that core body individual rays of light eminate from its surface outwards?

I have this notion that the point of balance in this metaphorical model is at the surface where the rays begin to eminate from the core body.

So where is the relavance to what we are discussing?

It is in that our individual consciousnesses are like each ray of light eminating from the central unified core. The surface of this sphere is the point of origination of consciousness. The sphere itself is not consciousness.
At the end of the rays of light is the physical world, physical reality. As our individual consciousness comes into being it reaches all the way out to the end into physical existance and gets stuck there in that point of perception.
Only by freeing itself can it move backward along the ray of light to the point of balance at the surface of the sphere.I say this because the ray of light and the star that begets it are really one in the same. There is no true division between them. If there were there would be no ray of light.

I need to spend time contemplating this, being with it. But, do you see generally what is being stated here?

I apologize for kind of running away here, but I just started typing as I was "looking" at this in my minds eye.

Who am I?

I'm a bit lost now.
I will read it again later and maybe take something different from what you have said.

Let me put it like I did to a friend of mine yesterday here locally

Is he still your friend? Ha ha... I am totally joking. The reason I say this is because I would try to get one of my good friends to engage in this type of discussion and he would not have any clue what the hell I am talking about. But then again, neither do.. me?

Cool Video Solskye

Originally Posted by Howie

I'm a bit lost now.
I will read it again later and maybe take something different from what you have said.

Dont feel alone. I have sat for months at times contemplating different masters teachings, and themn one day something will occur that will trigger a complete understanding of what it is I had taken in.
If you feel the need to ask anything just ask, though I wont gaurentee I wont get you even more lost.

Everyone seems to find their own way through this stuff. Each seems to have thier unique "fingerprint"

Is he still your friend? Ha ha... I am totally joking. The reason I say this is because I would try to get one of my good friends to engage in this type of discussion and he would not have any clue what the hell I am talking about. But then again, neither do.. me?

LoL

Actually I have known this person for 20 years and only just recently discovered we had similar views on this subject. I guess the topic never really came up for discussion until then. As you can imagine, The rest of our group of friends look at us like we are nuts when we talk about these things

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

If you lay a wheel flat on its face on the ground and step back aways, it looks like a beam, like my balance beam. When you stand over it looking down you see that it is a circle. from there I began to see it as a sphere, 2 dimensional at first , then I began seeing it as three and for dimensional.

Follow along here for a miniute and be patient with me...

INstead of the balance being determned by one end or the other of a beam or a flat circle, what if the balance is between the center of a sphere and its outer edges?
And... what if that shere is like the sun or a star? Where there is the core body and from that core body individual rays of light eminate from its surface outwards?

I have this notion that the point of balance in this metaphorical model is at the surface where the rays begin to eminate from the core body.

So where is the relavance to what we are discussing?

It is in that our individual consciousnesses are like each ray of light eminating from the central unified core. The surface of this sphere is the point of origination of consciousness. The sphere itself is not consciousness.
At the end of the rays of light is the physical world, physical reality. As our individual consciousness comes into being it reaches all the way out to the end into physical existance and gets stuck there in that point of perception.
Only by freeing itself can it move backward along the ray of light to the point of balance at the surface of the sphere.I say this because the ray of light and the star that begets it are really one in the same. There is no true division between them. If there were there would be no ray of light.

There is really good stuff here. Allow me to retrace your steps to see if I can shed any more light on this sacred geometry.

Let us start with the point, the principle origin that gives existence to everything else. The point itself does not exist in space, but rather creates space through relationships to itself. By reflecting itself, two points create a linear relationship; there is the original point of origin and its reflected opposite, which could also be said to signify birth and death.

Once we take a look from "outside" this linear conception, we realize that the line is in fact a circle, with the beginning and end points actually being the same point. This circle we have now imagined could be said to represent an individual's life. We can step back even further, however, to see that the end of one cycle of manifestation is really the beginning of another one. Death to one point of view is only a birth into another one, so that it appears to be a closed circle from within each individual point of view, but from outside one can see that it is in fact a continuous sprial.

This new dimension transcends the circle to reveal the sphere. Each horizontal slice of the sphere is one cycle of an individual point of view, indefinite in number, and all rotating in relation to the center axis. This vertical axis connects every circular slice through its center, and it is known as the 'World Axis', the 'Celestial Ray', the 'Tree of Life', 'Buddhi', among others. It is the non-manifested, motionless center that allows all of manifestation to come into existence, transferring from potency to act.

If we take the horizontal plane to represent an individual point of view, with its worldly evolution, and the vertical axis to represent the "spiritual evolution", we have created the cross. This ancient symbol has shown up in many spiritual traditions: in the Chinese tradition, the horizontal plane is 'Earth', the vertical is 'Heaven', and the point at the center is 'Man' - Universal Man; of course Christianity is probably the most well known today, with Christ symbolizing the center point within that allows for the resurrection from one life into the next.

Since this 'Celestial Ray' is contained within each person (or each person is contained within it, depending on the point of view), anyone can 'orient' themselves back to their source. Any point - any individual - can be the center, since in Reality it is only the original point that 'exists'. This spiritual journey, this travel to the East, is the 'awakening' to one's Self, the rising of the Sun. The more one orients themselves to this 'Celestial Ray', the more they realize that they are not their individual ego, but the motionless, invisible center that gives the individual its temporary existence.

wouldn't the answer simply be, I am?

Originally Posted by syzygy

There is really good stuff here. Allow me to retrace your steps to see if I can shed any more light on this sacred geometry.

Let us start with the point, the principle origin that gives existence to everything else. The point itself does not exist in space, but rather creates space through relationships to itself. By reflecting itself, two points create a linear relationship; there is the original point of origin and its reflected opposite, which could also be said to signify birth and death.

Once we take a look from "outside" this linear conception, we realize that the line is in fact a circle, with the beginning and end points actually being the same point. This circle we have now imagined could be said to represent an individual's life. We can step back even further, however, to see that the end of one cycle of manifestation is really the beginning of another one. Death to one point of view is only a birth into another one, so that it appears to be a closed circle from within each individual point of view, but from outside one can see that it is in fact a continuous sprial.

This new dimension transcends the circle to reveal the sphere. Each horizontal slice of the sphere is one cycle of an individual point of view, indefinite in number, and all rotating in relation to the center axis. This vertical axis connects every circular slice through its center, and it is known as the 'World Axis', the 'Celestial Ray', the 'Tree of Life', 'Buddhi', among others. It is the non-manifested, motionless center that allows all of manifestation to come into existence, transferring from potency to act.

If we take the horizontal plane to represent an individual point of view, with its worldly evolution, and the vertical axis to represent the "spiritual evolution", we have created the cross. This ancient symbol has shown up in many spiritual traditions: in the Chinese tradition, the horizontal plane is 'Earth', the vertical is 'Heaven', and the point at the center is 'Man' - Universal Man; of course Christianity is probably the most well known today, with Christ symbolizing the center point within that allows for the resurrection from one life into the next.

Since this 'Celestial Ray' is contained within each person (or each person is contained within it, depending on the point of view), anyone can 'orient' themselves back to their source. Any point - any individual - can be the center, since in Reality it is only the original point that 'exists'. This spiritual journey, this travel to the East, is the 'awakening' to one's Self, the rising of the Sun. The more one orients themselves to this 'Celestial Ray', the more they realize that they are not their individual ego, but the motionless, invisible center that gives the individual its temporary existence.

You should see the changes this has made to my visualization...

Astounding mental imagery. I'll describe it as best I can later.

Originally Posted by juroara

wouldn't the answer simply be, I am?

actually yaa juhoara. I think it is that simple. But our lives seem to be 99% hard science and our mind is conditioned to attach everything to themselves.

In other words we can't just leave it as ... I am ( then let it flow.)
We more often think I am - happy , mad, sad, shy, smart, stupid and so on)

Originally Posted by syzygy

There is really good stuff here. Allow me to retrace your steps to see if I can shed any more light on this sacred geometry.

Let us start with the point, the principle origin that gives existence to everything else. The point itself does not exist in space, but rather creates space through relationships to itself. By reflecting itself, two points create a linear relationship; there is the original point of origin and its reflected opposite, which could also be said to signify birth and death.

Once we take a look from "outside" this linear conception, we realize that the line is in fact a circle, with the beginning and end points actually being the same point. This circle we have now imagined could be said to represent an individual's life. We can step back even further, however, to see that the end of one cycle of manifestation is really the beginning of another one. Death to one point of view is only a birth into another one, so that it appears to be a closed circle from within each individual point of view, but from outside one can see that it is in fact a continuous sprial.

This new dimension transcends the circle to reveal the sphere. Each horizontal slice of the sphere is one cycle of an individual point of view, indefinite in number, and all rotating in relation to the center axis. This vertical axis connects every circular slice through its center, and it is known as the 'World Axis', the 'Celestial Ray', the 'Tree of Life', 'Buddhi', among others. It is the non-manifested, motionless center that allows all of manifestation to come into existence, transferring from potency to act.

If we take the horizontal plane to represent an individual point of view, with its worldly evolution, and the vertical axis to represent the "spiritual evolution", we have created the cross. This ancient symbol has shown up in many spiritual traditions: in the Chinese tradition, the horizontal plane is 'Earth', the vertical is 'Heaven', and the point at the center is 'Man' - Universal Man; of course Christianity is probably the most well known today, with Christ symbolizing the center point within that allows for the resurrection from one life into the next.

Since this 'Celestial Ray' is contained within each person (or each person is contained within it, depending on the point of view), anyone can 'orient' themselves back to their source. Any point - any individual - can be the center, since in Reality it is only the original point that 'exists'. This spiritual journey, this travel to the East, is the 'awakening' to one's Self, the rising of the Sun. The more one orients themselves to this 'Celestial Ray', the more they realize that they are not their individual ego, but the motionless, invisible center that gives the individual its temporary existence.

I also wanted to say, I really enjoyed the imagery on that description, as well. It brought this video to mind...

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

You should see the changes this has made to my visualization...

Astounding mental imagery. I'll describe it as best I can later.

What came to mind at first was a spiral coil of copper wire, much like used on the old time Stills used by the old moonshiners. I saw the coil in the shape of a sphere with the ends at the top and bottom, in the center pictured from overhead, and a tube running through the center of the sphere connecting the ends.

Then I see each layer of the sprial coil as a plane extending through the sphere in connection with the center spire. The center plane in relation to the spire is the broadest. The two ends of the spire are the narrowest planes. At this point I am led to see, or equate these planes in this model with perception.

At this point I do away with the copper coil and replace the image of the copper with an image of white light. Each layer in the coil is seperated or denoted by a thin line or band of darkness, or shadow.

My view shifts as it would in a dream, now I am seeing a spire of light eminating from the center point. This is where my image of a star or a sun appears with the core and countless indiviudal rays of light eminating from that core point.
The view is close up between and around several spires. Betwen each spire is shadow or darkness. Not really visible to much of a degeree on the macrocosmic scale. Its like I am seeing this on a microcosmic scale. Around each spire in the darkness there is like a field of stars( stars shining in a yellow light rather than a white light) spiraling up the spire as far as the can bee seen. Its like a spiral galaxy as seen in outer space. These star fields rotate around the spires, entwining with one another till there can be no denotation betwen the field around one spire and another.

Its as if the representation is both macrocosm and microcosm in the same moment. It a feeling like each spire is unique and distinct but present in the same field of stars. Best I can describe it.

I am led from here to see that the areas of shadow , between the planes first described, and the spires lastly are areas of reflection, Where physical reality is a reflection off of the spires and the planes of light.

If I stand back and look on the macrocosmic scale the geometry all intertwines and works together. Zooming in on the microcosmic scale I see the individual components of the geometry in relation to one another. It seems to me that microcosm and macrocosm is a good way of putting this as one is a near mirror image of the other, only giving off what seems at this point to me slightly different relfections.

I know I lost most reading this thread, but I am just thinking outloud at this point fro my own momentary benefit....

I say Me and my life is Mine.

There is no "I". Not as any discrete entity with separate existence from the external world anyways.

I see myself as a tool to make this world a better place

Who is this I? Myself who is an imperfection

Who is this me ? My other perfection

What is this I and this Me? My soul

So this is who I am, and this is all a lie.

Language becomes meaningless when you enter the world of the one.
Language is meaningful only when you are in the world of two.
In the world of duality language is meaningful because language is created in, is part of the dualistic world.
It becomes meaningless when you enter the one, the non-dual.
That is why those who know have remained silent -- or even if they say something they hurriedly add that whatsoever they are saying is just symbolic, and whatsoever they are saying is not exactly true: it is false.

And I just choose to live, for all that I can give.

Originally Posted by ClouD

So this is who I am, and this is all a lie.

And I just choose to live, for all that I can give.

Like a mirror

Reflecting all that stands in front of it

Never seeing itself

Only being itSelf

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

For those up to the task, define yourself in the context of of the words "Me", "I", and "Mine" as you use them in reference to yourself.

Take a moment and ask yourself

Who is this I?

Who is this me ?

What is this I and this Me?

Really sit and think on this, dont just throw an answer down without really contemplating this. Sit with it for a while, even a few days, and come back and give an answer. Try and give your reasons too for how and why you answered the way you did.

Truly see it from your own intimate perspective, not just some extrapilation of some teaching. Define it as you see it personally.

I can't make my mind stop thinking of what i think to make myself know me and define who i am, and why i am. My usual thought pattern....owning in an FPS game, owning in hockey, having sex with all the girls, being rich. That's pretty much my mind. Is that who i am? no, it's what i am thinking about, though.