Thread: The problem of heaven.

Syzygy, look... let me try to explain things as concisely as possible.

You talk about spiritual phenomena being beyond knowledge, but very fact you are trying to talk about it and trying to explain it is knowledge; knowledge of your experience. In other words, you've taken an experience and you've tried to explain it (whether rationally or not). To say it is beyond knowledge or understanding is false, because otherwise, why do attempt to explain it?

You ask me to look into areas and ask specific questions or to try and take an idea in mind. However, these questions are quite subtle in their insinuation of a spiritual aspect. It is not a question where it does not presume an answer, and therefore, I am not interested in asking those questions.

As for the time thing, you say it renews itself. That is infinite passage of time. There is no end, there is no beginning, it just passes along never ceasing. Please do not fluff up already clear terminology. I do not have the patience to deal with vague, nebulous words and concepts.

You say I have to experience it in order to understand it. THAT is confirmation bias, my friend. Example: "God does exist! You need to look for him in your heart and through prayer before you feel his presence!". However, a lot of things can be understood with a rational approach if you look at the problem. This whole concept of heaven, whether it be a destination, reward or mental state or [insert vague concept here], you can't analyse it objectively. You can't test for it, you can't falsify it, you can't determine its existence in an objective manner. If you are unable to observe or experience this occurrence objectively, then it can be considered absurd.

That is the problem. There is no logical reason for a heaven to exist, regardless of the form it takes. There is no logical reason for Death to be merely an illusion. Death is simply an end, just like a book. You have the beginning, the story in between, and the end. What matters not is getting to the end, it is the journey, the story itself. Life is what matters, not this whole spiritual thing, in my eyes. To gain an understanding of our existence does not require spiritual answers. You can have them for all I care, but they don't apply to everyone else, because it is a mere subjective interpretation.

Now.... take that math, and apply if to our universe... versus number of moments which our universe did not exist.

So if all forms of existence are real including nothingness, it is mathematically impossible for us to be on Earth at the current time.

Interesting response actually.

But no, it doesn't work like that really (well, clearly it doesn't because we're on Earth now ).

First you have to remember that the universe is going to exist for an infinite number of moments.

And second... well actually this issue is one I've considered quite a bit. And what you have to do is apply the anthropic principle. Assume that there are many alternate universes with different fundamental constants, the vast majority without any sort of intelligent life (which is what I believe). Of all the moments you could be observing, all of these moments can only belong to an observer in a universe in which conscious life is impossible; not the total number of moments ever, because most of those are impossible to observe. In fact you can extend this. Imagine you have a barrel full of 10000 marbles and a jam jar full of 100. You are given a marble. Where do you think it came from; the barrel or the jam jar? Obviously it's vastly more likely that it came from the barrel because the majority of marbles are in the barrel. In the same way, for any moment that you observe, it can be said that not only must you be observing a universe at a time at which conscious life is possible, but also that it is vastly likely that the universe will have constants which support the greatest number of conscious beings. I mean, just look at our universe; 6,700,000,000 people in one solar system alone, and about 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 solar systems... that's one hell of a lot of conscious moments.

But yeah, basically I think that everything we can observe is hence either a) necessary for conscious life b) necessary for maximising amount of conscious life or c) useless products of the necessary conditions... and I have deviated just a bit.

Originally Posted by lseadragon

I was thinking about the concept of heaven, and I have come to the conclusion that the conventional heaven is actually impossible.

Take a definition (as I know it) of heaven - a place where nothing can be better. Now, consider certain things in life; things that hurt but also have a good side, like a sad song or candy-flavoured barbed wire or something. If heaven can't be better in any way, then it will have to include these things as it otherwise could be improved by adding them. But the bad side of these things also makes it worse by including them. And before you say "Why not just include the good side?", it should be known that for some things the good and bad are inseparable. If you take away the pain of a sad song, then most of its beauty is lost.

So whether you add these or not, a heaven cannot be a place where nothing can be improved - because there is always something that could be made better.

Is there anything wrong with this argument?

EDIT: I'm not sure whether this should be in Religion/Spirituality. It didn't really feel like it to me, and it still doesn't, but I'll let the mods decide whether it should be moved.

its only in humanity that we come up with this silly concept that perfection is a state where nothing changes

take a deeper look into christianity. take a deeper look into eastern beliefs.

heaven IS NOT a magical place in the sky. both christianity and eastern beliefs say similar things. where does Jesus say heaven is? "the kingdom of heaven is within you"

this is not so different from the idea of nirvana. heaven becomes a state of consciousness, not a place.

in this state of consciousness you are one with yourself, at peace, and you are one with all of those around you - allowing yourself to love others. allowing yourself to be loved. it doesn't mean you know everything, and so, even in this state you can still have things to learn

"heaven is here on earth but you can not see it"

many spiritual people today will tell you - heaven is not separate from the world. actually, heaven CAN be a physical place in the universe. and it is our 'destiny' to bring heaven to earth. a place becomes heaven if the majority of the inhabitants are in that state of consciousness. this is what 2012 is all about.

perfection is perpetual growth. perfection is a state of always growing. just as the universe is always growing. so to then is heaven always growing and changing

a state where you stay the same and nothing changes is not perfection. such a state is a closed system that would collapse on itself and cease to exist

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Survival is both a conscious and unconscious effort. Whilst a lot of processes are done unconsciously, you still have to go out of your way to eat, to sleep, to drink, to defecate and urinate, etc..

Thanks for the tips! When you transcend the ego, these things are actually found to be happening on their own. Ask some record-breaking atheletes; they'll give you a hint (in the transcending of "trying" to an effortless "win").

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Absolute implies objective, not subjective..

Absolute Truth is not determined by force/personal control or opinion. But it is non-existent if it is not subjectively recognised at least. If Awareness is low, relative truths arise. If Awareness is non-existent altogether, so is the Truth (subjectively).

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Or you realise that without the context by which one can discern the objective meaning of the said number, it is pointless to try and speculate on what the number means..

There is no such thing as objective meaning if you're refering to the absolute. That is beyond meaning.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

A4 is a categorisation of size for a sheet of paper. A standardised size. All it means is that the sheet of paper has certain dimensions. Also, if one wanted, they could measure down to the molecular level... won't mean much though..

As I said.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Again, Occam's Razor can shave all the God stuff and simply say it is survival instinct coupled with emotions that lead the liaison that eventually lead to me coming into existence. Still beyond my own control..

I don't know Occam, but I know that Spiritual Revelations are not intinctual.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

A revelation to one person is hearsay to another, because what one has experienced himself cannot be experienced by another in order to confirm whether the revelation is true or not..

Yes it can. Enlightenment, The Path of. Impersonal Truth.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Ahh, the snake oil salesman technique.

Call the illusory techniques whatever you like; has no effect on Truth.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

"It's your choice, but you could be missing on the fantastic Mystery Box! Who knows what lies within? Could be a holiday to Tahiti, or the keys to your new car!".

It's not a mystery for those with faith, but a mystery to those who have no genuine interest.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

I am a sceptical bastard. Live with it.

A child may be a brat to a parent, but an angle to a Nanny.

Originally Posted by really

Thanks for the tips! When you transcend the ego, these things are actually found to be happening on their own. Ask some record-breaking atheletes; they'll give you a hint (in the transcending of "trying" to an effortless "win").

....

. <- the point ________ You->

The point... you missed it

Originally Posted by really

Absolute Truth is not determined by force/personal control or opinion. But it is non-existent if it is not subjectively recognised at least. If Awareness is low, relative truths arise. If Awareness is non-existent altogether, so is the Truth (subjectively).

You fail to understand the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.

Originally Posted by really

There is no such thing as objective meaning if you're refering to the absolute. That is beyond meaning.

See above response

Originally Posted by really

I don't know Occam, but I know that Spiritual Revelations are not intinctual.

Sex is a spiritual revelation? I really wonder what you were taught in sex ed. classes.

Originally Posted by really

Yes it can. Enlightenment, The Path of. Impersonal Truth.

Hearsay to the rest of us. Get over it.

Originally Posted by really

It's not a mystery for those with faith, but a mystery to those who have no genuine interest.

And then you open the mystery box and find that the new car that was promised was really a tiny toy collectible.

Originally Posted by really

A child may be a brat to a parent, but an angle to a Nanny.

"There is nothing quite as dangerous as a desperate person" - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

See! I can do cryptic sayings and quotations too!

I'm not religious at all, but I think your heaven is your heaven.

Heaven isn't necessarily orgasm-paradise, but just your peaceful place. IE mine would be in a meadow of infinite lush grass and hills and thundershowers. If you're emo maybe your heaven would be slitting your wrists (which hurts obviously, but for them overall it feels good).

If your idea of heaven is a place where nothing can be better and all you feel is joy - so be it, but you might start to miss pain and real human feelings, and eventually your heaven will just be your happy place in life.

Maybe you'll miss that feeling that you get when you take a risk - which can be viewed as a bad thing.

I dunno, just my idea

Originally Posted by bluefinger

....

. <- the point ________ You->

The point... you missed it

Yet I was the one who brought it up in the first place.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

You fail to understand the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.

Enlightenment unites the two "terms" indifferrently as one.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Sex is a spiritual revelation?

Did I say that? Another false assumption?

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Hearsay to the rest of us. Get over it.

But isn't that the most obvious thing? I don't have to get over it, I am comfortable telling you the Truth whether you are willing to see it for yourself or not. If you don't care, stop wasting your time here.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

And then you open the mystery box and find that the new car that was promised was really a tiny toy collectible.

1. You realize there was no mystery box or salesman.
2. You realize that you had no idea at all, and only needed trust/faith and love.
3. You realize who you are; doubtless. "You" laugh at your old doubts and foolish reasoning; profoundly happy - Knowing real Happiness.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

"There is nothing quite as dangerous as a desperate person" - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

See! I can do cryptic sayings and quotations too!

The ego loves competition - it may create it even when there is none.

Originally Posted by Xei

Simple question: if God has infinite love, and there he has also created a heaven where beings experience infinite goodness for an infinite period of time, then what the fuck is the point of Earth?

Anyway, I'm afraid heaven is mathematically impossible, too:

x = number of moments spent on Earth
y = number of moments spent in heaven = infinity x
probability of it currently being a moment on Earth = x/(x+y) = x/(x+infinity x) = 0

So as heaven is real, it is mathematically impossible for us to be on Earth at the current time.

Oh wait, hold on a second...

Darn it, guess that's another insane religious concept we'll have to do away with.

lol lol lol wait had to reply to this.

Why on earth are you calculating the probability of a moment occuring? that doesn't make any sense, nor is it relevant.

You're essentially saying "If i throw a dart at the timeline, what is the probability that I'll hit somewhere in the time i spent on earth?" The question is arbitrary, because time progresses chronologically, not in random selections (like throwing a dart, flipping a coin, or any other event that has a calculable probability). ... Well, unless you know something about the universe that we don't, maybe time isn't linear like everyone else perceives it to be.

Even so, calculating the probability of a value being chosen from an infinite set is pointless and the earthly laws of probability cease to apply. In a limitless environment, the dartboard is so big and there are so many darts that they disappear altogether, because the probability of a certain section of an infinite board and of no board are the same: 0.

Thus by attempting to quantify the probability of an infinite timespan, you reduce it to nothingness, which is obviously wrong... because I'm looking at my clock right now... and it's ticking... and it's not zero o' clock.

You can't find the probability of an experience that is wholly separate from the realm of empirical study.

[Though admittedly, I do think the formula is cool, whether or not it works. ]

Originally Posted by really

Yet I was the one who brought it up in the first place.

Still missing the point is still missing the point, even if you brought it up. There is no excuse for stupid.

Originally Posted by really

Enlightenment unites the two "terms" indifferrently as one.

Complete utter bullshit. Obviously, such enlightenment is also known as lobotomy.

Originally Posted by really

Did I say that? Another false assumption?

Yes, because someone here, though was born to the love of a mother, received none from the father, who was actually an abusive prick. So much for a 'spiritual revelation'. One of them didn't even want me. Go figure, asshole.

Originally Posted by really

But isn't that the most obvious thing? I don't have to get over it, I am comfortable telling you the Truth whether you are willing to see it for yourself or not. If you don't care, stop wasting your time here.

Because you professing the 'Truth™' is the same thing I get from other religious nutters wanting to push their brand of desert dogma down my throat. Personal revelation is only meaningful to you, not to the rest of us. Seriously, fuck off with these attempts to push confirmation bias onto me.

Originally Posted by really

1. You realize there was no mystery box or salesman.
2. You realize that you had no idea at all, and only needed trust/faith and love.
3. You realize who you are; doubtless. "You" laugh at your old doubts and foolish reasoning; profoundly happy - Knowing real Happiness.

You realise you have let your brain leak out of your ears. Nice going...

Originally Posted by really

The ego loves competition - it may create it even when there is none.

Your dogma is blind to the fact everyone else just does not care for your 'Truth™'.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

You talk about spiritual phenomena being beyond knowledge, but very fact you are trying to talk about it and trying to explain it is knowledge; knowledge of your experience. In other words, you've taken an experience and you've tried to explain it (whether rationally or not). To say it is beyond knowledge or understanding is false, because otherwise, why do attempt to explain it?

Here, I don't think it's fair to brand the acknowledgment of ignorance as "knowledge" or an "explanation" of heaven per say... it's more of a necessary realization and really has no effect on unknown thing in question. Analogy: if I have a card in my hand, and you don't know what's on the other side of it, you can say "I don't know what's on the other side of that card" without attempting to explain what's on my side of the card.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

You can't test for it, you can't falsify it, you can't determine its existence in an objective manner. If you are unable to observe or experience this occurrence objectively, then it can be considered absurd.

That is the problem. There is no logical reason for a heaven to exist, regardless of the form it takes.

While you consider the possibility of heaven "absurd" because it cannot be tested, it can still exist.

Just because there is no logical reason for heaven to exist doesn't mean it can't.

Of course you know all that and it's not really the point of your argument, but just so everyone keeps that in mind.

Originally Posted by bcomp

Here, I don't think it's fair to brand the acknowledgment of ignorance as "knowledge" or an "explanation" of heaven per say... it's more of a necessary realization and really has no effect on unknown thing in question. Analogy: if I have a card in my hand, and you don't know what's on the other side of it, you can say "I don't know what's on the other side of that card" without attempting to explain what's on my side of the card.

True...

Originally Posted by bcomp

While you consider the possibility of heaven "absurd" because it cannot be tested, it can still exist.

Just because there is no logical reason for heaven to exist doesn't mean it can't.

Of course you know all that and it's not really the point of your argument, but just so everyone keeps that in mind.

You can't really assert the whole "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" thing, because when you think logically and rationally, something that can't be determined objectively isn't something that is rational and logical, because if it were then a whole plethora of problems will arise. Something that can't be predicted and tested is often something that is absurd, unreal.

The point I'm trying to get across is the whole subjective interpretation angle... beliefs. All these people have are subjective beliefs, I try to remain objective whilst highlighting my own subjective beliefs. The problem arises in this discussion because I'm trying to analyse things as objectively as possible but all I have and am seeing is subjective interpretations, and some wish to actively push those beliefs onto me (which I do not take kindly to). Hence my attempt to highlight my objective argument that you quoted.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

You can't really assert the whole "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" thing, because when you think logically and rationally, something that can't be determined objectively isn't something that is rational and logical, because if it were then a whole plethora of problems will arise. Something that can't be predicted and tested is often something that is absurd, unreal.

Yeah that's often true; things that can't be tested can seem quite absurd and unreal. Still, before telescopes and modern physics, the idea of a heliocentric universe was pretty darn absurd... simply because no one could test it at that time... oh well.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

The point I'm trying to get across is the whole subjective interpretation angle... beliefs. All these people have are subjective beliefs, I try to remain objective whilst highlighting my own subjective beliefs. The problem arises in this discussion because I'm trying to analyse things as objectively as possible but all I have and am seeing is subjective interpretations, and some wish to actively push those beliefs onto me (which I do not take kindly to). Hence my attempt to highlight my objective argument that you quoted.

Yeah I understand. I can't stand those sorts of people, the truly narrow-minded ones.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Still missing the point is still missing the point, even if you brought it up. There is no excuse for stupid..

There are no excuses for anything, but understand there may operations which the mind is not aware of.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Complete utter bullshit. Obviously, such enlightenment is also known as lobotomy..

Oh, sorry, it was because you're not the only one with a blue finger? (Distorted conceptions).

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Yes, because someone here, though was born to the love of a mother, received none from the father, who was actually an abusive prick. So much for a 'spiritual revelation'. One of them didn't even want me. Go figure, asshole..

Yes: False asumption. (Meaning: known or unknown, an assumption which lacks actual truth).

I've never met my father - but what does that determine? Only God Knows.

One may find a forest fire and moan about Global Warming, another can find one and stare in awe of mother nature. Depends on what? Person - Depends on what? Context - Depends one what? That which is independant, beyond mind. Complaining depends on limitation, therefore.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Because you professing the 'Truth™' is the same thing I get from other religious nutters wanting to push their brand of desert dogma down my throat. Personal revelation is only meaningful to you, not to the rest of us. Seriously, fuck off with these attempts to push confirmation bias onto me..

Seriously, I have not attempted anything but to challenge what you deem to be true, which can be useful or useless to anyone or no-one. That's what forums can be for. You can always be ignorant, or you can take advantage of what others can share with you. Again, you can ignore my sympathy and consideration for yourself, or "live in hell". It's all your choice. Is that my fault for emphasizing?

Originally Posted by bluefinger

You realise you have let your brain leak out of your ears. Nice going...

Again, Reality is not a fancy cartoon which is unpleasant. False judgments can be misleading.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Your dogma is blind to the fact everyone else just does not care for your 'Truth™'.

I can admit that "I" am blind to everyone else, for I have no idea who cares and who doesn't. It therefore shouldn't cause problems if one participates in a thread without their own interest. Do not complain where you direct your attention, it is not mine.

So, I say again, do whatever you like. Ignore me if you want, I am immune to the ignorant, because I have learned what seems invisible to most.

Originally Posted by really

The ego loves competition - it may create it even when there is none.

it it it it it it it it it it it it it it !!!


There is something here to be noticed "really".....

are you awake?

or snoring away?

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

it it it it it it it it it it it it it it !!!


There is something here to be noticed "really".....

are you awake?

or snoring away?

Ok, I'm done in this discussion. If you're interested, PM me, if not - you're not. End.

Originally Posted by really

There are no excuses for anything, but understand there may operations which the mind is not aware of.

Hence my assertion on both the conscious and unconscious thought process.

Originally Posted by really

Oh, sorry, it was because you're not the only one with a blue finger? (Distorted conceptions).

And what does that have to do with the price of fish?

Originally Posted by really

Yes: False asumption. (Meaning: known or unknown, an assumption which lacks actual truth).

I've never met my father - but what does that determine? Only God Knows.

One may find a forest fire and moan about Global Warming, another can find one and stare in awe of mother nature. Depends on what? Person - Depends on what? Context - Depends one what? That which is independant, beyond mind. Complaining depends on limitation, therefore.

Sex is not a spiritual revelation. Whatever the motives behind the act, there is no revelation in the sense you are promoting to be had.

Originally Posted by really

Seriously, I have not attempted anything but to challenge what you deem to be true, which can be useful or useless to anyone or no-one. That's what forums can be for. You can always be ignorant, or you can take advantage of what others can share with you. Again, you can ignore my sympathy and consideration for yourself, or "live in hell". It's all your choice. Is that my fault for emphasizing?

What a black & white choice. "Listen to what I have to say or live in hell". Fuck you and your arrogance. Your 'sympathy' and 'consideration' are not pure, and are backed with nothing but an ulterior motive to 'boost the numbers in the flock'.

Originally Posted by really

Again, Reality is not a fancy cartoon which is unpleasant. False judgments can be misleading.

Or perhaps I'm simply highlighting the absurdity of your statements. By, you know, adding a comedic exaggeration.

Originally Posted by really

I can admit that "I" am blind to everyone else, for I have no idea who cares and who doesn't. It therefore shouldn't cause problems if one participates in a thread without their own interest. Do not complain where you direct your attention, it is not mine.

So, I say again, do whatever you like. Ignore me if you want, I am immune to the ignorant, because I have learned what seems invisible to most.

Immune to ignorance? You practically cloak yourself with ignorance. You push and peddle these ideas without any consideration to the points I have made, only holding them to be false according to your dogma. I try to objectively analyse whilst highlighting my subjective beliefs, but all you do is arrogantly assert that you are the one who is correct because of some personal revelation.

You ARE blind.
You are dogmatic.
Now get over it.

Originally Posted by really

Ok, I'm done in this discussion. If you're interested, PM me, if not - you're not. End.

I was talking to everybody. (There is no problem with heaven).

Originally Posted by really

I was talking to myself. (There is no problem with dogma).

Fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by really
I was talking to myself. (There is no problem with dogma).
Fixed.
__________________

-Bluefinger v1.25- Enter the madness that are my dreams (DJ Update, non-LD)
Yesterday upon the stair, I met a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today, I wish that man would go away.
Hugh Means (1875 - 1965)
DILD: 6, WILD: 1

Hahahaha!..Lol!

Such Simple truths go unnoticed by the sleeping crowds


ROFL!

Ahhhhhhhhhhahahahaha!

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

Quote:
Originally Posted by really
I was talking to myself. (There is no problem with dogma).
Fixed.
__________________

-Bluefinger v1.25- Enter the madness that are my dreams (DJ Update, non-LD)
Yesterday upon the stair, I met a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today, I wish that man would go away.
Hugh Means (1875 - 1965)
DILD: 6, WILD: 1

Hahahaha!..Lol!

Such Simple truths go unnoticed by the sleeping crowds


ROFL!

Ahhhhhhhhhhahahahaha!

Thank you... thank you... I try my best to please

But yeah, the sleeping crowd often speak things they are not aware of, or fully understand, and it is only the few sleepless individuals that can see through the dreams of comfort and perceive the reality around them. Even then, the seeming sleepless understand that the reality around is only another dream, a subjective experience that they can share.

Philosophically speaking

The irony will always be enormous, blue.

Laughing at ourselves...

Enjoying just how things are...seem to be...



You'll "find out" eventually.

Originally Posted by really

You'll "find out" eventually.

Find out what? That you are full of shit? I already know that...

Now run along and go preach your dogma elsewhere. It ain't clever, and you are not going to convince anybody...

Really... really. You're disappointing me here man. The point of a philosophic discussion is to entertain and analyze all sides of an issue, not to simply win an argument. Even at that, your failing right off a fucking cliff.

Philosophy = love of thought... so start thinking.

Blue, don't worry, honestly. "Go out" and enjoy your life, if this thread tickles you the wrong way.

Originally Posted by bcomp

Really... really. You're disappointing me here man. The point of a philosophic discussion is to entertain and analyze all sides of an issue, not to simply win an argument.

There is no winning or losing this argument; this is not a competition. So, not me; not you; nobody "fails".

I cannot please everyone either, but I can be pleased by everyone, yes. (That is up to "me").

Religion/Spirituality is a difficult philosophy (off topic also) to include here and explain in traditional terms. I have tried my best to explain the limitations of the mind - that is part of psychiatry which may be useful.

Originally Posted by really

(I don't need to explain this in the Philosophy forum).

The human mind, as I said, is limited (from certain paradigms it cannot logically understand). Notice that most spiritual people can "transcend" (parts of) the mind, and witness profound intuition and healing abilities which they admit are not "of their own personal control"; they thus may not sound convincining to some people.

It is also difficult to analyze all "sides" of an argument when one can barely comprehend few of them to begin with. This is why I am stopping; there is simply too much ground to cover. (PM me, again, if you trust me).