Thread: The problem of heaven.

Well...The point is you don't need reminding. Physically, if you can be blissful now, you can be blissful at any other time, simply by replicating the same brainstate - or a similar one. So any point in the future can be just as pleasant as now.
Of course you don't have to freeze your brainstate at all - you could just "reset" when you get sick of it. I suppose that's what reincarnation's for, if it exists.

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

Well...The point is you don't need reminding. Physically, if you can be blissful now, you can be blissful at any other time, simply by replicating the same brainstate - or a similar one. So any point in the future can be just as pleasant as now.
Of course you don't have to freeze your brainstate at all - you could just "reset" when you get sick of it. I suppose that's what reincarnation's for, if it exists.

The problem with the "no/frozen time" argument is its subsequent effective on our awareness. No time = no awareness, likewise, infinite time = infinite awareness. With no time, you have no future, past or present, because all three are concepts of time, and so without the progression of time, how can one be aware of the state one is in? In dreamless sleep, you are often not aware of the progression of time between the point you fall asleep and the point where you wake up. But the key thing is awareness. Any form of awareness so to allow recognition of a certain emotional state will inevitably require some form of progression of time. One can't simply be aware of an emotion in a timeless situation.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

A blissful eternal state wouldn't really be blissful without something to distinguish/contrast with it. Otherwise, it'll simply be a normal, neutral state. Plus having to stay within a status quo for an eternity is not my idea of heaven. Even with all sorts of people coming and providing new conversation and all that, after let's say 1000 years, you would start to see similarities in people's lives and their stories. Eventually, there will come to a point where humanity has long ended and the universe would have faded away into a cold, dark place and no new people would enter heaven. Add the remaining infinite period of time after that, and it will become more of a drudgery than a heaven.

Who said humanity would end? What if, by some miracle, humanity turned around and formed the earth into a paradise rather than a cesspool? And with things constantly changing (though a lot of things really do remain the same), I don't think "new" would be hard to come by.

Originally Posted by Amethyst Star

Who said humanity would end? What if, by some miracle, humanity turned around and formed the earth into a paradise rather than a cesspool? And with things constantly changing (though a lot of things really do remain the same), I don't think "new" would be hard to come by.

Firstly, the sun won't last forever (before it explodes as a nova, it'll expand and consume the earth), and neither will the universe (if humans do manage to escape this solar-system). And if one is in a heaven for an eternity, one would be around for such things to occur and thus would experience the ceasing of the flow of humans into heaven. In an infinite existence, one would pretty much not only see everything else come to an end, but be stuck with an eternity ahead with no end in sight for yourself. Unless, one was to end when the universe ends, if heaven happens to be linked in any way to this reality.

Also, I think there already is 'heaven' on earth if you are willing to look for it. We can strive to make sure it reaches everyone in some way. The only thing I'm really arguing against is on the notion of eternal existence being a 'reward'.

Originally Posted by lseadragon

My best theory is that heaven is actually nothingness. When you are nothing, you do not want for anything, and thus you are eternally content.

Isn't this usually the atheistic idea of death?

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Isn't this usually the atheistic idea of death?

Yes.

a big problem with a Heaven that is perfect for you is that most of not all humans deepest desires are at least somewhat sinful, however i would assume sin can not occur in Heaven, Heaven is perfect after all. Having sex for pleasure is a sin so people couldn't for fill sexual fantasies in heaven,eating when it is not necessary(gluttony) is a sin, so no eating your favorite food in having, same goes with drink. there are many other examples but the point is if you keep your human consciousness in heaven, what you want would generally not be allowed.

Interestingly on a site called gotquestions.com( recommend this site they email you back quickly and their answers are interesting and without bias, useful for when i want a Christian view on something, well at least what a Christian should think), a site which answers any question you put forward to it using scripture and a bit of their opinion but mainly focusing on scripture, claims that when you go to Heaven and see God, anything else wont matter anymore. You wont want to see family members who died, it wont cross your mind, you will bow before the glory of God himself, you will worship him for all eternity, you'd never want to stop because he is so amazing.

Originally Posted by lseadragon

Is there anything wrong with this argument?

Yes: You think there might be a problem with heaven.

There is nothing wrong with heaven, try and stop thinking like a human and go beyond your own ego. The ego is the one keeping you guys "i don't get it".
The world has it's own things to worry about with society now a days. I have never seen past my own ego, but i will know it will stop me from seeing the truth. What's the truth? definatly not this....we made all this up. Afterall, if you look deep into yourself, how can it be a lie, and all this stuff we made up the truth? all this as in all the things we have in the world.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

There is nothing wrong with heaven, try and stop thinking like a human and go beyond your own ego. The ego is the one keeping you guys "i don't get it".
The world has it's own things to worry about with society now a days. I have never seen past my own ego, but i will know it will stop me from seeing the truth. What's the truth? definatly not this....we made all this up. Afterall, if you look deep into yourself, how can it be a lie, and all this stuff we made up the truth? all this as in all the things we have in the world.

There is everything wrong with heaven (the concept that is). You say to stop thinking as a human, well bud, how else does one think? I get the concept of heaven, which is why I argue against it. Let me break the argument down for you:

1. The implication of Eternity. When something is eternal, you will exist far beyond the end of the universe. You will end up witnessing firsthand or indirectly the end of humanity and the end of this universe. After that, after no more people enter heaven, you are left with an eternity ahead with a set amount of people and with the prospect of no escape, nothing new to occupy yourself with, left to wander in heaven or simply worship God forever.
2. You lose your memories or some part of what makes you you and then somehow everything will be fine for coping with an eternal existence. The mindless drone syndrome.

That's what my argument breaks down to. Heaven is horrible concept, the whole idea of an eternal existence is actually more akin to torture. Oh, so you are in a blissful state for eternity. How is that any different from being in pain for an eternity? As with hell, there's only so long you can continue to scream before you get accustomed to the pain. Likewise, with an eternal state of bliss, there's only so long before you grow accustomed to the feeling, and thus it becomes your normal state.

The prospect of having to exist for an eternity is much more frightening then knowing one is going to die, because of the implications of what it means to experience eternity.

Does the universe have to end? Who knows, it could go on for eternity. And I think heaven isn't just for humans. If you don't deny that other life exists in the universe, why shouldn't it have a place in heaven as well? So even if the human race becomes extinct, there would still be new beings entering heaven as long as there's still life in the universe.

Originally Posted by Schmaven

Does the universe have to end? Who knows, it could go on for eternity. And I think heaven isn't just for humans. If you don't deny that other life exists in the universe, why shouldn't it have a place in heaven as well? So even if the human race becomes extinct, there would still be new beings entering heaven as long as there's still life in the universe.

First of all, there will come a point where every single star will fade, as the essential elements required for fusion will be consumed, with matter either ending ending within black holes or simply floating in dark cloud of matter, and if proton decay is ever observed and proven, eventually all matter would decay and the universe will end up as a soup of low-energy radiation and particles. And if one had an eternal existence, they will witness such progression from a bright, dynamic universe to a cold, dark void (don't forget the universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate).

There will come a point the universe will end in some way or another. Any sort of eternal existence will put you in such a position that one will exist not only long enough to witness such events (which will drag on for billions of year), they will have to continue to exist far beyond after the universe itself has ended.

I`m not sure. I think if there is a heaven, that's probably not where people go if they die. I`m not trying to start any religious argument here, but I`m just using it to prove my point.
I`m going to go with the definition "A better place." and then that ironic "My mother just died" situation. For a parent, isn't the best place for them to be, with their child? So if they died and went to heaven, it wouldn't be a better place, because they've lost their purpose for existance, wouldn't they?

Just throwing this out there.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

There is everything wrong with heaven (the concept that is). You say to stop thinking as a human, well bud, how else does one think? I get the concept of heaven, which is why I argue against it. Let me break the argument down for you:

1. The implication of Eternity. When something is eternal, you will exist far beyond the end of the universe. You will end up witnessing firsthand or indirectly the end of humanity and the end of this universe. After that, after no more people enter heaven, you are left with an eternity ahead with a set amount of people and with the prospect of no escape, nothing new to occupy yourself with, left to wander in heaven or simply worship God forever.
2. You lose your memories or some part of what makes you you and then somehow everything will be fine for coping with an eternal existence. The mindless drone syndrome.

That's what my argument breaks down to. Heaven is horrible concept, the whole idea of an eternal existence is actually more akin to torture. Oh, so you are in a blissful state for eternity. How is that any different from being in pain for an eternity? As with hell, there's only so long you can continue to scream before you get accustomed to the pain. Likewise, with an eternal state of bliss, there's only so long before you grow accustomed to the feeling, and thus it becomes your normal state.

The prospect of having to exist for an eternity is much more frightening then knowing one is going to die, because of the implications of what it means to experience eternity.

Nothing wrong with heaven at all, and to stop thinking like a human i mean like meditate. People seem to be completly changed in their views when they look deep within themselves. While it's just yourself, if there is a soul i'm sure that also has some part of it. Connect to your soul, know the truth.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Nothing wrong with heaven at all, and to stop thinking like a human i mean like meditate. People seem to be completly changed in their views when they look deep within themselves. While it's just yourself, if there is a soul i'm sure that also has some part of it. Connect to your soul, know the truth.

Connect to my soul huh... is that the best you can come up with? Essentially, you are saying that I must have some form of confirmation bias in order to "see that it isn't so bad" or " know the truth".

I really don't understand religion's daemonisation of humanity. What is wrong with being human? Really... explain that to me. As for Meditation, all it does is help relax and focus. Nothing more. Also, how the fuck will I 'completely' change if I simply meditate? Am I trying to listen for this playing deep within my own mind?

Let me spell it out to you where my position is on this whole thing... AGAIN. An eternal existence is effectively pointless, meaningless and is probably the worst thing you can have happen to a sentient being. You can't simply say that you'll be different in heaven so that this isn't an issue, because you are effectively implying that one becomes a mindless drone devoid of anything that made him/her who he/she was in life. In other words "Lobotomies for Jeebus!".

At least tackle with the argument I've set out, not encourage me to take up another form of confirmation bias.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

I really don't understand religion's daemonisation of humanity. What is wrong with being human? Really... explain that to me.

There is nothing inherently wrong with being human, but the human mind contains the possibility of doubting that which gives the self its existence, its Being. This inevitably leads to an unnecessary limiting of the self (e.g. the physical self or the ego-self), and gives one a distorted view of 'Reality'. It is from this self-imposing limitation that Religion offers to set one free. By Religion, I am not referring to what most people today consider it to be, i.e. a purely social and sentimental institution, but rather to what it is in its truest sense - a re-linking between one's current limited state of being and the divine Principle that gives it its existence through the contemplation and meditation of the Self, by the Self, through the Self, and for the Self. Without this reflection on the self, ultimately leading to a true Realization of the higher Self, one cannot hope to understand what is beyond its self-imposed limitation because it will inevitably reduce all spiritual knowledge to the level of the physical and therefore completely distort it to the point of absurdity.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

As for Meditation, all it does is help relax and focus. Nothing more. Also, how the fuck will I 'completely' change if I simply meditate? Am I trying to listen for this playing deep within my own mind?

It is a curious thing that you say things such as "all it does" or "nothing more". Why are you putting these limitations on it? I agree that it helps one relax and focus; the purpose of meditation is to calm the mind so that it can exist in a more pure state of being. When the mind is calm, it is free from all that is not essential to its Being and can only then recognize what it is not - Being in itself. Once it realizes this for itself, it is able to transcend the limitations of accidental properties and identify itself with a more pure and true state of being, a Heaven. It is by raising the self up to this state of being that one effectively changes the self.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

An eternal existence is effectively pointless, meaningless and is probably the worst thing you can have happen to a sentient being. You can't simply say that you'll be different in heaven so that this isn't an issue, because you are effectively implying that one becomes a mindless drone devoid of anything that made him/her who he/she was in life. In other words "Lobotomies for Jeebus!".

Your assumption that in Heaven one is a "mindless drone" is a symptom of this limitation that I'm speaking of. It seems, from the way you describe your version of heaven, that you are confusing the limited, physical self with the infinite, spiritual Self. You are reducing the spiritual world to the physical, i.e. conceiving of eternity in terms of physical time, and are coming up with some pretty absurd conclusions.
Eternity is not simply an irreversible, physical time that extends on indefinitely, but is rather the Moment where past, present, and future exist simultaneously. This dimensionless point is free from all limitation (physical space and time) and is therefore Infinite. One could never become "bored" of this state of being because it is filled with infinite possibility. "Boredom" can only occur in a state where one is not interested in their activity. In the spiritual world, one's space and time, one's activity, is their desire for that state. Boredom would therefore be a state reserved for a Hell, and not a Heaven, because an existence of boredom is a result of becoming trapped within one's limited self.

Ahh, finally someone with some decent answers!

Originally Posted by syzygy

There is nothing inherently wrong with being human, but the human mind contains the possibility of doubting that which gives the self its existence, its Being. This inevitably leads to an unnecessary limiting of the self (e.g. the physical self or the ego-self), and gives one a distorted view of 'Reality'. It is from this self-imposing limitation that Religion offers to set one free. By Religion, I am not referring to what most people today consider it to be, i.e. a purely social and sentimental institution, but rather to what it is in its truest sense - a re-linking between one's current limited state of being and the divine Principle that gives it its existence through the contemplation and meditation of the Self, by the Self, through the Self, and for the Self. Without this reflection on the self, ultimately leading to a true Realization of the higher Self, one cannot hope to understand what is beyond its self-imposed limitation because it will inevitably reduce all spiritual knowledge to the level of the physical and therefore completely distort it to the point of absurdity.

First of all, Religion, by definition, is an organisation that holds to a key set of doctrines. What you are talking about here is Spirituality. Just to make sure certain definitions are clear.

Also, I'm not in agreement with the idea of spiritual knowledge being reduced by a questioning 'limited' mind. If anything, a questioning mind discerns and investigates itself and thus is able to decipher what the Self is. You can't simply say that one has to spiritually enlighten oneself in order to come the realisation of Self. The only limitations of the mind is when it refuses to use logic and reasoning, holds onto conformed ideas and speculations without trying to analyse and understand. THAT is when the mind is hamstrung and 'limited'.

Effectively, the whole daemonisation of humanity is because are inherently self-limiting? Well, no shit sherlock, as humans are bound with all sorts of limitations. However, that is not necessarily a bad thing.

Originally Posted by syzygy

It is a curious thing that you say things such as "all it does" or "nothing more". Why are you putting these limitations on it? I agree that it helps one relax and focus; the purpose of meditation is to calm the mind so that it can exist in a more pure state of being. When the mind is calm, it is free from all that is not essential to its Being and can only then recognize what it is not - Being in itself. Once it realizes this for itself, it is able to transcend the limitations of accidental properties and identify itself with a more pure and true state of being, a Heaven. It is by raising the self up to this state of being that one effectively changes the self.

As someone who meditates from time to time, I don't feel any changes to my self, I only derive sensations of relaxation and focus. I come out still being me, and not something less of me (or more, depending on what viewpoint you have on the matter). There is no empirical evidence to suggest that meditation does anything of the sort you claim, and thus I don't have to accept any of these claims. Basically, I try to adhere to the principle that "Though I want to believe in as many true things as possible, I want to get rid of as many false beliefs I have in order to achieve the former".

Originally Posted by syzygy

Your assumption that in Heaven one is a "mindless drone" is a symptom of this limitation that I'm speaking of. It seems, from the way you describe your version of heaven, that you are confusing the limited, physical self with the infinite, spiritual Self. You are reducing the spiritual world to the physical, i.e. conceiving of eternity in terms of physical time, and are coming up with some pretty absurd conclusions.
Eternity is not simply an irreversible, physical time that extends on indefinitely, but is rather the Moment where past, present, and future exist simultaneously. This dimensionless point is free from all limitation (physical space and time) and is therefore Infinite. One could never become "bored" of this state of being because it is filled with infinite possibility. "Boredom" can only occur in a state where one is not interested in their activity. In the spiritual world, one's space and time, one's activity, is their desire for that state. Boredom would therefore be a state reserved for a Hell, and not a Heaven, because an existence of boredom is a result of becoming trapped within one's limited self.

First of all, how can anyone suggest that your spiritual self would be any different from your physical self? Without one being similar to the other, then you lose the whole definition of Self. Thus my conclusion of the whole mindless-drone syndrome. Also, Eternity does not equate to all time converging onto one point. That is lack of time, if there is no progression of some sort. Eternity is the infinite passage of time, not the convergence of time.

Secondly, with all this infinite possibility... in an eternal existence, what is the point of all that possibility? What is the meaning, the purpose of it? What achievement can you gain in an existence that is essentially purposeless. Without some sort of limit, you lose not only your self, but also the purpose of your existence and any meaning it had. You say that I am putting things into physical contexts, but anything other than that is only pure speculation. To become anything other than who you are in this moment, enlightened or not, is essentially losing the very things that form your awareness and identity. And then to have an eternal existence stuck in a situation with no derivable purpose or meaning (despite the infinite potential), THAT is more akin to hell. There is no point of infinite potential, because if you can do everything and never run out of time, then what's the point of doing anything?

I still see no reason as to why a 'spiritually enlightened state' will somehow give me the ability to withstand an eternity. Also, what purpose do I gain out of such a thing? Do I simply kick-back and relax for all eternity?

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Connect to my soul huh... is that the best you can come up with? Essentially, you are saying that I must have some form of confirmation bias in order to "see that it isn't so bad" or " know the truth".

I really don't understand religion's daemonisation of humanity. What is wrong with being human? Really... explain that to me. As for Meditation, all it does is help relax and focus. Nothing more. Also, how the fuck will I 'completely' change if I simply meditate? Am I trying to listen for this playing deep within my own mind?

Let me spell it out to you where my position is on this whole thing... AGAIN. An eternal existence is effectively pointless, meaningless and is probably the worst thing you can have happen to a sentient being. You can't simply say that you'll be different in heaven so that this isn't an issue, because you are effectively implying that one becomes a mindless drone devoid of anything that made him/her who he/she was in life. In other words "Lobotomies for Jeebus!".

At least tackle with the argument I've set out, not encourage me to take up another form of confirmation bias.

If you're gonna start swearing at things you don't like then it's pointless to even respond to you. Also, i was not talking about religion. I was also tackleing what you said with the whole ego talk.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

If you're gonna start swearing at things you don't like then it's pointless to even respond to you. Also, i was not talking about religion. I was also tackleing what you said with the whole ego talk.

Oh for goodness sake, one word. Because a few colloquialisms slip by somehow you don't feel the need to respond. Also, the reason I got a little heated was because of all the suggestions of confirmation bias (a logical fallacy if I might add), something I do not take kindly to. It doesn't tackle the issues I bring up, it is an attempt to 'sweep them under the rug'. At least syzygy tried to offer some more substantial answers (though I may not agree with them, I still felt it was a better attempt).

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Oh for goodness sake, one word. Because a few colloquialisms slip by somehow you don't feel the need to respond. Also, the reason I got a little heated was because of all the suggestions of confirmation bias (a logical fallacy if I might add), something I do not take kindly to. It doesn't tackle the issues I bring up, it is an attempt to 'sweep them under the rug'. At least syzygy tried to offer some more substantial answers (though I may not agree with them, I still felt it was a better attempt).

Yeah 1 word, just means you can slip again at some other time you feel some "nonsense" comes up. Anyway you think heaven can't exist, and i gave you a reason why you believe that and think of it as you want, but it's true. The ego wont let you believe in things like "heaven", "the easter bunny","santa clause", etc etc. For a simple reason too...it's illogical to believe in silly things such as those. I doubt i will have an answer that will please you, because i have no idea if you will be pleased by anything that goes against what you believe, and that i am not here to make you believe, just to answer. You can make do with what you want since it's your choice to believe, or not to believe. I'm half and half.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Yeah 1 word, just means you can slip again at some other time you feel some "nonsense" comes up. Anyway you think heaven can't exist, and i gave you a reason why you believe that and think of it as you want, but it's true. The ego wont let you believe in things like "heaven", "the easter bunny","santa clause", etc etc. For a simple reason too...it's illogical to believe in silly things such as those. I doubt i will have an answer that will please you, because i have no idea if you will be pleased by anything that goes against what you believe, and that i am not here to make you believe, just to answer. You can make do with what you want since it's your choice to believe, or not to believe. I'm half and half.

Listen. You gave answers, and I pointed out what I saw was wrong with them. Also, the whole ego thing is misguided, because the ego is simply one part of what makes who you are. And if you were to remove that, you'd be missing a good piece of who you are.

All I'm doing is applying a critical line of thought here. And yes, you are correct to point out that certain things are completely illogical to believe in, and what I was doing was pointing out how illogical it is to perceive an eternal existence of some sort being a reward, considering the implications I pointed out.

Now, hopefully, I explained well enough where I am coming at. As for my occasional slip of the tongue, it happens all the time, whether I'm talking to friends, family, or debating on the net. Does it mean anything? No... so don't take it personally.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

You say to stop thinking as a human, well bud, how else does one think?

Stop thinking: Surrender thought.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

The prospect of having to exist for an eternity is much more frightening then knowing one is going to die,

There is nothing to be afraid of. Absolutely nothing. On the contrary, a glimpse of God - the swelling of Perfection is a Bliss that is beyond mind-blowing, may scare the ego in its fears of its own dissolution (for foolish reasons).

Originally Posted by bluefinger

because of the implications of what it means to experience eternity.

Your listed implications are very far from the Truth. Heaven is Perfect, that is that. (Words are very cheap).

Originally Posted by really

Stop thinking: Surrender thought.

Ãgain, mindless drone... "Don't think! It's bad! D:"

Originally Posted by really

There is nothing to be afraid of. Absolutely nothing. On the contrary, a glimpse of God - the swelling of Perfection is a Bliss that is beyond mind-blowing, may scare the ego in its fears of its own dissolution (for foolish reasons).

So kissing God's ass is what you do for an eternity?

Originally Posted by really

Your listed implications are very far from the Truth. Heaven is Perfect, that is that. (Words are very cheap).

Truth is what you make of it. There is no absolute truth in the sense you are insinuating. Also, perfection is boring. If it was perfect, you can't improve upon it, you have no purpose to fulfil, and you gain no meaning to your existence. You basically would sit around kissing God's ass for eternity...

bluefinger, if you want to understand, it requires patience, maturity and humility. I don't teach to kindergarten. Be honest with yourself.