Thread: Animal Suicide

Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

I kind of lean toward what SS was saying near the end of his post.

It's interesting because humans can kind of override natural instinct. Humans can give into things like wonder, awe, and curiosity. If you were standing, watching a forest fire, you would likely see all the animals living in that forest running away. But a human could choose to walk into that blaze. I mean most people wouldn't, but the point is you could. You could override your natural instinct, if you wanted.

But the question remains: "Is the human's walking toward the blaze an act of choice, or instinct?" After all, where exactly is that line between something that is completely done on our own accord (independently of ALL INFLUENCE - including genetic) and something that its as instinctual as a dog running off to retrieve a tennis ball?

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

But the question remains: "Is the human's walking toward the blaze an act of choice, or instinct?" After all, where exactly is that line between something that is completely done on our own accord (independently of ALL INFLUENCE - including genetic) and something that its as instinctual as a dog running off to retrieve a tennis ball?

But if you threw the tennis ball into a forest fire it probably wouldn't go for it. If you had one of our primitive ancestors beside you and threw a steak into the fire he probably wouldn't go after it either, and I kind of doubt he would voluntarily walk into it for no apparent reason.
It's definitely not wrong to say different instincts can evolve, and maybe a human walking toward that blaze is instinct. It's interesting to think about. But like you said, there's no way to draw a line.

Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

But if you threw the tennis ball into a forest fire it probably wouldn't go for it. If you had one of our primitive ancestors beside you and threw a steak into the fire he probably wouldn't go after it either, and I kind of doubt he would voluntarily walk into it for no apparent reason.

The key word, though, is probably. The choice is still there. A dog isn't likely to go into the fire, neither are our ancestors, but neither is a human of today. Being modern man, we can empathize with the idea that there are any number of "reasons" (logical or not) that modern man would do such a thing, but we can't really say the same thing about animals. I think this has much less to do with their being "lower life-forms", but simply that they do not have the types of experiences that we do. They don't live a lifestyle where concepts like "wonder and awe" are really as applicable as they are to us. But were they to experience some of the things that we do, and be taught some of the lessons we learn, and given the options we have in life, who knows what their reactions to those types of events would be?

For instance, if a dog loses a long-time companion, it's not uncommon for them to slip into depression - depression so deep that the dog will often stop eating, to the point of starvation. Is this an instinctual response? Or is the dog saying "you know what? Fuck this. I'm not hungry. Leave me alone"?

EDIT: It was totally in the article, never mind.

Animals can very much have a sense of free will... Elephants have been known as one of the only animals to actually remove its own teeth to kill themselves in captivity.

Please read this ridiculous article, and the brilliant comments.

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/sh...t-suicide.html