Thread: All points of view are truth

Ne-yo,
It's not of sound logic to you? From my perspective it makes perfect sense but I do struggle with getting my thoughts across in writing. Please if you have any questions I would love to explain my thought further.
Love & Light

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Is that a fact?
So, let me ask you something. What lidybug has mentioned here, can you honestly say that you reason with this information and it's of sound logic to you?

Oh he doesn't disagree with you Lidybug (necessarily) - trust me - he's trying to pin me down to something he thinks I said that I actually never did.

Need I repeat myself again Ne-yo? Saying that I like the way a person thinks is not the same as saying I AGREE with them.

Here's what I like about her statement -

I like that she thinks outside the box. Nowhere have I ever heard anyone say that black holes are the cosmic pupils of god!!

I also like that she doesn't seem to be stuck on a strictly biblical idea of what god is - she seems to be engaged in a search of discovery about it, and to allow the possibility that it might be something internal rather than external. At least to me it seems that way, and from the fact that she says all points of view are truth, I assume she wouldn't disagree with my interpretation of what she said. I find it very refreshing to be able to talk about god in ways that aren't stiffly pre-determined by biblical dogma. Personally I don't like having people tell me what I'm allowed to think.

My belief is that all religions and myths are attempts to explain strictly internal phenomena - gods are essentially archetypes that people believed to be external since they couldn't conceive that anything so powerful could possibly come from inside their own mind. If you have a basic understanding of how the collective unconscious works, it's easy to see how people made these errors - so frequently pre-scientific people imagined things working backwards - for instance believing that vision was caused by some kind of rays emerging from the eyes rather than the other way around, as we now know to be true. Or because people saw insects emerge en masse from piles of garbage it was easy for them to believe they must have been bits of garbage that spontaneously began to twitch and somehow became insects. There was no way people could possibly understand the actual truth about these things until science probed into them and found the answers.

I think people like Lidybug are engaged in a powerful search for truth, as opposed to people who restrict themselves to only believing what they've been told to believe and refuse to examine their beliefs or check to see if they actually relate to facts about the world.

Nowhere in anything I've seen her say did she indicate that what she calls God or Source is identical to the God of the bible.

I'm not one of those atheists who think the bible is just a science fiction book or a fairy tale, or that God is no more than a lie made up to scare people into being good - I think religion is one of the most powerful examinations of nature and human nature and meaning, but that in Christianity it's been unfortunately crystallized into dogma and is no longer responsive to our changing understanding of reality. But when one thinks of god in the kind of terms Lidybug seems to, they free themselves of that restriction and allow themselves to search for meaning that's actually meaningful to us today rather than might have been meaningful to a primitive Hebrew tribe millenia ago and has since been crystallized and politicized to the point that even the original meaning is lost now.

I believe it's ultimately less important whether a person believes god is internal or external, as long as they're willing to constantly test and investigate whatever it is that they believe god is. And this seems to be exactly what she's doing. Ergo I like the way she thinks!

Originally Posted by lidybug

Ne-yo,
It's not of sound logic to you? From my perspective it makes perfect sense but I do struggle with getting my thoughts across in writing. Please if you have any questions I would love to explain my thought further.
Love & Light

I think your statement is very well put and completely rational in my eyes, however, I was just wondering why Darkmatters, who may I say, previous statement is now in conflict with his atheistic position, would all of a sudden agree with this mode of thinking. Considering he thinks EVERYTHING pertaining to a God is completely absurd, ridiculous and of circular logic. So now he's trying to clean it up.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Oh he doesn't disagree with you Lidybug (necessarily) - trust me - he's trying to pin me down to something he thinks I said that I actually never did.

Need I repeat myself again Ne-yo? Saying that I like the way a person thinks is not the same as saying I AGREE with them.

Ok, but you never answered my question. Do you think her statement was logically sound to you? Yes or no?

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I think your statement is very well put and completely rational in my eyes, however, I was just wondering why Darkmatters, who may I say, previous statement is now in conflict with his atheistic position, would all of a sudden agree with this mode of thinking. Considering he thinks EVERYTHING pertaining to a God is completely absurd, ridiculous and of circular logic. So now he's trying to clean it up.

Well, obviously I don't believe EVERYTHING "pertaining to a god is completely absurd, ridiculous and of circular logic" as you put it. I only believe that's what dogmatic Christian beliefs are.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Ok, but you never answered my question. Do you think her statement was logically sound to you? Yes or no?

Well, technically yes. I DO believe she's been told that we were made in the image of God or Source. This is not to say that I believe we actually WERE made in the image of god.

Though to be even more technical about it, I can say that in a sense I DO believe were were made in the image of god. In the sense that, as I've said repeatedly (once on this thread, multiple times elsewhere) I believe what people call god is an archetypal form residing in the collective unconscious. Archetypes are patterns of thought that we all share in common, passed on to us from our parent's DNA. Just as the patterns of skeletal anatomy etc are passed down generation after generation, ensuring that we're all made to the same basic specifications anatomically. The same is true for our patterns of thought, at least the ones we call archetypes - they shape our thought processes and are identical form one person to another. So if these thought patterns are what I believe you're referring to when you say god, then yes, I suppose you could even say that I believe we are all created in the same image, and that image is god. However this god has nothing whatsoever to do with creating the universe or originating life, nor is it in any way omnipotent or omniscient. So it's not the same as what you mean when you say God. However it just occurred to me that what I call god certainly is responsible for laying down moral law. So there are many similarities, but it's not the same god, as you were hoping.

I believe this is the part you were hinging your argument on - the fact that she said "we were created in the image of god"? Well, there goes that argument!

Don't mistake me for Xei - I'm not going to argue incessantly with you. I know better than to try to force you to 'see the error of your ways'. You'll never agree with me and I'll never agree with you, and I know that.

Thanks to this little discussion I have gained some deeper insight into my ideas on this subject - I had never thought before about the 'image of god' as DNA imprinting (or whatever it's called) until tonight. But as soon as I feel like we're banging our heads on that old familiar brick wall I'm calling it quits - there's no point in fighting an unwinnable fight that nobody can benefit from. And I think all you're really trying to do here is pin me down on a technicality - because maybe I made an error in wording or something.

And to be clear - I am an atheist in the sense that I believe what people mean when they say god is nothing supernatural - I believe it's entirely psychological.

Darkmatters you've made so many contradictions within your last few posts I don't even know where to begin with dissecting all of your nonsense. I wasn't looking for a wall of text, all I wanted was a simple yes or no answer and you still dodged around that. I did get a good laugh and I thank you for that. Especially on this part.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

This is not to say that I believe we actually WERE made in the image of god.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

I can say that in a sense I DO believe were were made in the image of god.

Dude, you're so confused you don't know what to believe. I'll leave you alone because this is waaaay to easy.

Wow!!! Darkmatter now I am blown away! Thank you for so elegantly explaining your perspective of my perspective. You have tapped into my experience and thought process beautifully! I am on a journey for truth and I'm opening myself to infinite possibilities as to not be boxed in and limited to what is already known. As for the God in the bible... I was raised catholic and have been a self proclaimed catholic drop-out after I did not follow through with Confirmation in the 10th grade. I felt as if I was not being told the whole story by the Church, it did not feel genuine. I didn't want to follow blindly to be excepted only to acquire a false sense of security. After 10th grade I didn't think much about the Church, God, or why I was here. Until December 10th 1999, I was 23, and my fiancé was killed in a car accident. I had a premonition or a feeling something was not right. I remember sitting in front of the TV watching Providence and looking at the stone wall of the fireplace. It was like a daydream or a vision of Josh in a hospital bed and me by his side. I then got up from the couch and called the hospital. I don't know what came over me but "I KNEW" something had happen. I called the wrong hospital. With in 15 minutes his grandfather called me and I dropped to my knees before he even said anything. I went to the hospital and spent the night by Josh's bedside just like the vision I saw on the fireplace wall. I got to spend one night with him saying my goodbyes and in the morning they turned off the machines and he was gone. This is a day I have just recently come to know as my Birthday. This was the day I started to question and ask why! It was the day I woke up! Many things happened after this event that I can not explain but I know to be true. Because of Josh I found my Soul and for that I am eternally grateful. I always knew what my Soul was. As a child I knew it as that part of me that knows I exist. The part that observes and knows it's self to be eternal. I just never made the connection of that feeling being my Soul. With out the experience above that shifted my perspective I may of never questioned my existence with such intensity.
Now, I am married with 2 beautiful little girls. I find myself learning about existence through observations. Children helped me to gain amazingly insightful multi-dimensional perspective. I find myself looking at the bible with new eyes as well. I have a hard time understanding or believing a lot of what is written but I am coming to realize that the bible to is perspective. I am in constant evolution changing my perspectives for a better upstanding of all that is.
I hope this bit of history helps to shed more light on the perspective I am coming from.
Darkmatter, I love the way you think! "I am an atheist in the sense that I believe what people mean when they say god is nothing supernatural - I believe it's entirely psychological." quote Darkmatter

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Well, obviously I don't believe EVERYTHING "pertaining to a god is completely absurd, ridiculous and of circular logic" as you put it. I only believe that's what dogmatic Christian beliefs are.






I have gained some deeper insight into my ideas on this subject - I had never thought before about the 'image of god' as DNA imprinting (or whatever it's called) until tonight. But as .

I love this insight!! Thank you!!!

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Darkmatters you've made so many contradictions within your last few posts I don't even know where to begin with dissecting all of your nonsense. I wasn't looking for a wall of text, all I wanted was a simple yes or no answer and you still dodged around that. I did get a good laugh and I thank you for that. Especially on this part.

Dude, you're so confused you don't know what to believe. I'll leave you alone because this is waaaay to easy.

@ Ne-yo (tl;dr version is bolded):

Come on Ne-yo. You're an intelligent person (as long as your thinking isn't restricted by dogma) - I refuse to believe you really don't understand what I said. I didn't contradict myself - keep in mind the god I'm talking about is not the God of the Bible (note capitalization). I'm saying that as human beings we are all made (psychologically - not physically) in a pre-formed pattern that's encoded into our DNA. Since I identified this pattern as an archetype that people have called God (and I refer to as god, no capital) then it is in a sense correct to say that we are made in the image of god (not God).

I know you didn't ask for a wall of text - I had some insight that I thought was valuable enough to record and explore further in writing - and for that I thank you for challenging me to think deeper about my beliefs. It's only fairly recently that I've learned much about the collective unconscious and archetypes, and I hadn't really thought much about how it relates to god. Your post made me do that.

It's clear to see that the Greek and Roman gods are archetypes - they each seem to represent some definite part of the psyche (love, war etc). Some of them do anyway - I won't go farther than to say that. But it's harder to understand how the Abrahamic God could represent a single archetype. It seems that the Abrahamic God isn't really a direct representation of any single archetype or group of them - it's more complex than that - it's as if all the relevant archetypes have been collected and then divided arbitrarily into Good and Evil.

@ lidybug:

Thank you for sharing that! I've now googled images of Dominical and it's an amazingly beautiful place!!! It seems like a person can certainly feel close to god there, whatever god means to them. I'm glad we're getting to know each other better through this thread, and I'm glad to find out I was right that you're an explorer of the true nature of human nature and the soul (again, whatever that word means to you). People usually assume that if you believe god is 'just' a part of the human mind, that it diminishes his power or divinity. I don't think it does. If it truly is an archetype or a collection of them, then it's by far one of the most powerful and numinous experiences a person can ever encounter. Archetypes are transformative - they appear to us in dreams or visions in times of crisis or great change. They have the power to bring extreme change to our lives or to kill if we refuse to acknowledge them and the message they carry.

Looking forward to more conversations with you!

I like the way both of you think, DM & LB

It's so common for strange ideas to be met with default hostility. To do the opposite and meet a strange idea by first entertaining it... that is a rare thing, anyplace I've ever seen.

I like the way lidybug thinks also, not sure if I can say the same for Darkmatters. It's hard to find any real truth in what he speaks. In one thread he calls the Bible a logical fallacy in another thread he says the Bible is one of the most powerful examinations of nature and human nature and meaning. He doesn't appear very truthful to himself so I don't really expect him to be truthful to anyone else.

I think he was pretty clear with this:

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

...to search for meaning that's actually meaningful to us today rather than might have been meaningful to a primitive Hebrew tribe millenia ago and has since been crystallized and politicized to the point that even the original meaning is lost now.

A version of this thought probably got transmitted in a way that you interprited as "the Bible a logical fallacy" in whatever you are referring to. It's a delicate process to separate out the bad from the good in religion, sometimes attempts to hold some aspects as worth keeping or worth throwing out can seem like generalizations. I think it's best to assume dishonesty only as a last resort in theoretical discussions, it's much more often the case that you are misinterpriting what is being said.

You keep asking for a digital yes/no answer to a neuanced topic. It's not going to come.

What about:

"All points of truth are views.."

??

Originally Posted by IndieAnthias

A version of this thought probably got transmitted in a way that you interprited as "the Bible a logical fallacy" in whatever you are referring to

Not sure how you've analyzed it as such or maybe you didn't actually read what I previously posted. I think I made it very clear when I stated in the above post that he made the statement, the Bible was a logical fallacy, in another thread.

Originally Posted by IndieAnthias

You keep asking for a digital yes/no answer to a neuanced topic. It's not going to come.

I only asked for a yes or no answer 'once' I'm not sure where you've gotten the "keep asking for a digital yes/no answer" from.

All I'm saying is that it if his words seem to contradict each other, it is more likely that the communication is flawed or misinterprited, and less likely that his actual thoughts contradict one another. Sometimes things get taken as generalizations that aren't intended as such.

But I shouldn't have started speaking for other people in the first place and now this is getting past my comfort level, so I'll shut up about it.

Originally Posted by Oneiro

What about:

"All points of truth are views.."

??

I dunno, what about truths unknown? Or truths that are sounds?

I guarantee you I have never used the term 'logical fallacy'. However, when I first arrived on this board my views were different from what they are now - I was on the same boat with the Strong Atheists, and my thinking at that time was influenced mainly by Richard Dawkins and Carl Sagan. And yes, I'm sure at that time I may have made some statements belittling god or the bible in a way that I wouldn't do now. I've grown - largely thanks to viewpoints I was exposed to here on the board, from a flat denial of any value to be found in Christianity to a more nuanced view which recognizes its virtues while still aware of its inherent weaknesses.

I moved on from Dawkins to Jung, who of course is far more forgiving to religion and to Christianity. So it's true, if you contrast things I said a few years ago to things I've said more recently I'm sure you can find some discrepancies. To a person whose views never change that can be seen as a weakness to be exploited, but actually it shows growth and the willingness to explore viewpoints I may have failed to give full credence to yet. Without this kind of change and self-exploration we cannot grow to our full potential. I thank Juroara for showing me the error of my earlier thinking, which was polarized and oversimplified. I was caught in the trap of dualisitc thinking, which is linked with immaturity. A truly mature thinker is able to reconcile seemingly opposed viewpoints and balance them rather than separating them and choosing one side from which to attack the other.

No one's attacking you Darkmatters if you're that sensitive to my comments you wouldn't be able to take half the comments most atheist on this board has dished out to theist. However, that's besides the point. I was actually referring to something far more recent than a few years ago. What I'm talking about is within the last couple of months. On the other hand, if you're views has changed within the last couple of months then I extend my apologies to you and I'll admit that I was wrong in my thinking of you.

Oh you may well be right - I'll freely admit I sometimes slip back into my old ways of thinking and it's a lot easier and more fun to choose a side and fight for it than to always try to be all open-minded and try to encompass both extremes. I did post that circular thinking meme recently out of frustration, and that was kind of low. I definitely have my bad days when I'll let something get on my nerves and respond with less than exemplary tact. I have never used the term 'logical fallacy' - that sounds like something Xei or Mario or somebody more science-oriented might have said, though I may well have expressed the same attitude in different words.

This thread is SO rich! I've been thinking about " The bible being (a) Logical Fallacy" and how this could relate to the bible in my own mind. Something seen as logical to one person may not be logical to another. Perhaps the bible is a logical fallacy if perceived by a mind or a perspective but when we expand our mind to encompass many perspectives then the bible begins to take on a different interpretation, this has been my experience. This thought brought me to what Oneiro posted "All points of truth are views". That statement I find to hold Soul truth.
Darkmatter Quote :"People usually assume that if you believe god is 'just' a part of the human mind, that it diminishes his power or divinity. I don't think it does."
I never thought of this before but I see the truth in it. Isn't it amazing that people don't recognize their own divinity! I believe we are all divine, wether we agree with each other, or have inner conflict with ourselves. We all have the divine will with in us to create our environment through our belief and imagination. Darkmatter, I know you can relate to that on many levels especially with your ability to create multiple realities in your puppet theatre stopmotion animation.
Archetypes have been coming to me all over the place. I just recently started to learn about them as well and the role they play in our lives. It's fascinating. I am remembering doodles on paper from my childhood, and also paying attention to the lessons I receive in my dreams and in my waking life from these amazing symbols.
Ne-Yo,
You are playing an extremely important role from my perspective in this thread. You are making things a bit uncomfortable but I welcome that with enthusiasm and thank you for forcing everyone to reflect and understand and discover more about what they truly believe. I learn so much from people like you, even though it has taken discipline to process and respond from a place of gratitude for what you have forced me to see. So, thank you again from my heart and I hope you too are questioning why you believe what you believe and evolving into a better you.
I think we forget that we are Divine because as we grow we think that what is in the past is less then... but with out it we could not be who we are now. With out all perspectives we are lacking but no less Divine. When I learned to open my mind to all perspectives being truth is when I realized my own Divinity.

IndieAnthias,
Eloquently stated. Thank you for your insight!

Originally Posted by lidybug

.. what StonedApe posted "All points of truth are views".

"All points of truth are views."

Hoist by my own petard.

I'm sorry Oneiro, I will edit my previous post! Thank you.

No lidybug.. don't edit! It's quite funny..

One of those "knock of the spirit"-type things..

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

I did post that circular thinking meme recently out of frustration, and that was kind of low. I definitely have my bad days when I'll let something get on my nerves and respond with less than exemplary tact. I have never used the term 'logical fallacy' - that sounds like something Xei or Mario or somebody more science-oriented might have said, though I may well have expressed the same attitude in different words.

Yup, that's exactly what I was referring to. Anyway I've been looking through my last few post in this thread and I've come to terms that I shouldn't have called you out like I did. You're a cool guy and you didn't really deserve that so I apologize to you Darkmatters.

Originally Posted by lidybug

This thread is SO rich! I've been thinking about " The bible being (a) Logical Fallacy" and how this could relate to the bible in my own mind. Something seen as logical to one person may not be logical to another. Perhaps the bible is a logical fallacy if perceived by a mind or a perspective but when we expand our mind to encompass many perspectives then the bible begins to take on a different interpretation, this has been my experience. This thought brought me to what Oneiro posted "All points of truth are views". That statement I find to hold Soul truth.
Darkmatter Quote :"People usually assume that if you believe god is 'just' a part of the human mind, that it diminishes his power or divinity. I don't think it does."
I never thought of this before but I see the truth in it. Isn't it amazing that people don't recognize their own divinity! I believe we are all divine, wether we agree with each other, or have inner conflict with ourselves. We all have the divine will with in us to create our environment through our belief and imagination. Darkmatter, I know you can relate to that on many levels especially with your ability to create multiple realities in your puppet theatre stopmotion animation.
Archetypes have been coming to me all over the place. I just recently started to learn about them as well and the role they play in our lives. It's fascinating. I am remembering doodles on paper from my childhood, and also paying attention to the lessons I receive in my dreams and in my waking life from these amazing symbols.
Ne-Yo,
You are playing an extremely important role from my perspective in this thread. You are making things a bit uncomfortable but I welcome that with enthusiasm and thank you for forcing everyone to reflect and understand and discover more about what they truly believe. I learn so much from people like you, even though it has taken discipline to process and respond from a place of gratitude for what you have forced me to see. So, thank you again from my heart and I hope you too are questioning why you believe what you believe and evolving into a better you.
I think we forget that we are Divine because as we grow we think that what is in the past is less then... but with out it we could not be who we are now. With out all perspectives we are lacking but no less Divine. When I learned to open my mind to all perspectives being truth is when I realized my own Divinity.

Lidybug those were very inspiring words and I had to do a double-take on your post because you remind me of Switch (a member of this forum) You have a big heart and if I made you uncomfortable I extend my apologies to you as well. There's a ton more that I would like to say here and perhaps I'll continue it later but as for now my little angel's recital is approaching and I gotta run Thanks again for your kind words.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

...but as for now my little angel's recital is approaching and I gotta run....

I soooo just misread that as 'my angel's reticule is approaching', and imagined that you operated under scrutiny of an imaginary sniper in the clouds

enjoy the show, ne-yo