Thread: All points of view are truth

I see what you're saying - but to achieve that would require complete enlightenment plus complete scientific knowledge. Can anyone ever do that?

I think that if such a thing as a universal consciousness exists, that is the only thing to which truth is not a mystery.

Is truth required to make decisions? Is truth required to be happy? Is truth required for a civilization to flourish? All that is required is functionality and sustainability. If it works, it works. It may work for short term goals rather than long term ones (in the sense of cancer) or for personal goals rather than wide-spread goals (in the case of parasites) but none of our scientific achievements or philosophical revelations have doodly to do with Truth. They have always and will always lean upon functionality for the service they provide us and the trust they deserve.

This Truth of which you speak sounds rather lofty and abstract, and pretty much unnecessary. If we've got this far without ever seeing a hint of it, then do we need it? It also sounds like something we'll never see.

But we are capable of knowing some truths. Like the fact that if I drop a hammer gravity will pull it downward (assuming I'm on a planet).

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

This Truth of which you speak sounds rather lofty and abstract, and pretty much unnecessary. If we've got this far without ever seeing a hint of it, then do we need it? It also sounds like something we'll never see.

But we are capable of knowing some truths. Like the fact that if I drop a hammer gravity will pull it downward (assuming I'm on a planet).

Truth is supposed to mean what's true right? I bring this point up to remind you that Gravity is not true. You can't prove a hammer will fall before it falls. After it falls, you can use gravity to explain how it fell but therein lies the key difference. Before and After. Truth and Narrative. Nothing is true until you can prove its true and even then you only prove that one particular instance from that one particular POV. Reminding me of my "How can spirituality be studied scientifically?" thread, this goes back to casinos.

Casinos don't know what your cards are going to be. They only know what your cards are likely to be and they have a 51% likelihood that the cards will work out in their favor rather than yours. They don't know truth, but they understand enough about the process to know where to put their money.

Truth does not rely on proof - only our understanding of it does. Truth is truth whether or not we know what it is.

They don't know truth, but they understand enough about the process to know where to put their money.

Yes - this is all we can ever know of truth really - I said somewhere up above that nothing is known with total certainty - even those theories with 99.9999% certainty. But some things are known better than others. For me, I tend to stick to those things that are fairly well known, and anything else I'll call a guess or a belief or a faith.

Technically we're still debating semantics.

I don't know, I think its valuable to remember that absolute truth is outside the realm of man and man is left only to work the figures and make decisions, not to discern truth.

Darkmatter,
“I’m thinking out load”.
Here is a meditation that might explain further my OP and where I am coming from.
I had a meditation a few months back about the Sun and the center of the universe. From my meditative perspective. This is a recounting of my thoughts during the meditation. Think of our solar system (along with our earth) as the manifestation of our Sun. The earth being where the Sun manifests and experiences life through living matter. Bringing forth our chakra systems in a rainbow of color. Let me explain. In a meditation I saw the root chakra (red) as being very grounded, foundation, starting point, I also felt a strong association with Mars. The second chakra sacral (orange) being the beginning of creation, womb, seeds planted. Third Chakra Solar Plexus, the Sun, Yellow, the center of our physical and spiritual being, our self confidence, our power. Fourth Chakra, Heart, Green, I always think of this chakra when I’m in nature and all the green around me, I always feel more connected to source when I’m in nature. This is where I feel it all comes together in the physical. I live in the rainforest and I see every color of the rainbow (chakras) around me. I feel as if I am witnessing creation and the chakra system through the eyes of the creator and what if that was the Sun? Fifth Chakra, Throat, Blue, sky, air, the song of birds, water, evaporation. With the Chakras above the Solar Plexus (sun) I feel like we are connecting the heavens and spiritual with the earth and physical aspects of creation. Sixth Chakra, Third eye, Indigo, deep space, multiple perspectives, higher self, clear vision. Seventh Chakra, Crown Chakra, enlightenment, multidimensional knowledge, this is the Source from which all Sun’s generate into existence. From this perspective everything IS.
For me it is like the view point you mentioned about quote “ all view points having “some” truth if you search enough to find it. That it is impossible to make a decision. In order to be myself I have to stop thinking about everybody else’s viewpoint and return to my own”. From the perspective of the “crown” or Source their just IS because in it all perspectives exist.

This was my experience. I experienced this light in a dream and I know it to be real. My insights are mine alone just as many other people of varried religions have experiences that supports their belief. They are that of the individual and can not be proven (as of yet) by science but it does not make them any less true.
Example: LD if you had never had one and someone tried to explain it to you (before it was proven by science) would you except it as truth if you yourself had not had the experience of LDing? You can’t know what an LD really is untill you have one. I believe that there are many more experiences just as powerful out there in all religions that can only be validated by the experiencer.

StonedApe,
quote "All of the major religions(Judeo/Christian/Islam/Hindu) believe things that they do not know. This effects their values and the way the live their lives. This has a huge effect on society."
From your perspective they do not know.

Truth is in the experience.

What are you doing in my head??!!!

Seriously - you just blew my mind!!!

Ok, first - I have done some chakra meditation, so I know what you're talking about there. Though it sounds like you've made a lot more progress there than I have.

Second, I have read your thread about the lighthouse.

But BLAMMO!!

You just blew my mind with this one: "From this perspective everything IS."

Serious - how did you get in my head??!! I haven't had an experience like that from meditation, but I did have the "everything is" experience once from doing acid. I didn't do enough to hallucinate or anything, but my mind started racing and I engaged in a deep philosophical conversation with myself, the end result of which was a clear and profound thought - Everything Is. Meaning everything a person can think of exists - and if you can think of something that doesn't exist, then it now exists - as a thought. And moreover - I understood that everything we humans say is simply a partial attempt to express that idea.

I was going to post an exploding head gif here,but they look too grotesque or comical.

Thank you for explaining all that, and while I still feel mostly the same way, I can certainly understand having an epiphany like that on occasion - I just can't see remaining in that open-minded state for any length of time - you'd need to return to normal human experiencing when it's over or lose your sense of identity.

Just remembered - when I had this Everything Is experience on acid - it felt like the top of my head was open wide... crown chakra indeed..

Omnis Dei:
I don't know, I think its valuable to remember that absolute truth is outside the realm of man and man is left only to work the figures and make decisions, not to discern truth.

Hmmm... then the thought occurs to me - why are we having this discussion? I mean, I basically agree with you - but if Absolute Truth is beyond our comprehension - then pffft!

Well I believe it's only beyond Cognitive Comprehension but that we have greater awareness in us than our cognition which is tapped into this aggregate perception.

I think if there wasn't some sort of universal awareness to which we were a part, then no, truth the way that I see it probably does not warrant discussion.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

:
Serious - how did you get in my head??!! I haven't had an experience like that from meditation, but I did have the "everything is" experience once from doing acid. I didn't do enough to hallucinate or anything, but my mind started racing and I engaged in a deep philosophical conversation with myself, the end result of which was a clear and profound thought - Everything Is. Meaning everything a person can think of exists - and if you can think of something that doesn't exist, then it now exists - as a thought. And moreover - I understood that everything we humans say is simply a partial attempt to express that idea. YES!!!!

This is my belief...
Exactly everything begins with a thought wether it comes from you or the source (which is ultimately you). I feel we are here to express ourselves and to get back to the understanding that we all come from LOVE that there really is no separation it is an illusion. I could go one step further and also say Time is an illusion. All conflict outside of ourselves is a reflection of our inner selves, and can be a tool to understanding compassion not only for someone else put for ourselves.
I can certainly understand having an epiphany like that on occasion - I just can't see remaining in that open-minded state for any length of time - you'd need to return to normal human experiencing when it's over or lose your sense of identity.

I meditate fairly regularly, not always by sitting quietly in a meditative state (I have two young girls 1 1/2 and 3 years old) but I constantly shift my consciousness into alternant perspectives. I posted an example in one of my previous posts " Clear light Perspective" about the awareness of a carrot meditation.

Just remembered - when I had this Everything Is experience on acid - it felt like the top of my head was open wide... crown chakra indeed..
it is very possible to get back there in meditation and in your dreams. I was thinking of this last night as i was falling asleep (I didn't sleep, well my whole family is a bit under the weather) I'm going to start saying an affirmation as i fall asleep, " I want to see everything from the perspective of the Sun". Thank you for all your brilliant thoughts and for providing me with the insight for this affirmation! I believe that conversations of sharing perspectives are the key to expanding our awareness.


Hmmm... then the thought occurs to me - why are we having this discussion? I mean, I basically agree with you - but if Absolute Truth is beyond our comprehension - then pffft!

Connection, that is why we have these discussions.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Please do edit your posts better. I can't read that literal wall of text.

When you have really long winded and convoluted sentences with extremely poor formatting then that tends to have large implications for the legibility of the text rendering it very difficult to read to the vast majority of people which is why formatting is so useful which then will cause more people to read your posts instead of skipping over them because you have very long sentences and bad structure that run on for far too long and give people eye strain and this is not something you should aspire to do so I can only suggest you start to change your posting style to a manner more conducive to generating a discussion on the actual content of your posts rather than people discussing the formatting of said posts which results in more interesting topics because the discussion of formatting is itself not a very interested discussion so in conclusion you really should change the way you post.

holy shit....

Ontological pursuits actually got us past the elephant metaphor of reality, though unfortunately, those who have failed to follow, typically assume something is because of a similar property - assuming the consequent type reasoning.

The fact is, when those of us who up to being rational, become so, we tend to see things simply as they are, and whether it is a small piece to a much larger one, is irrelevant in respects to what that particular piece actually is.

Originally Posted by Somii

The fact is, when those of us who up to being rational, become so, we tend to see things simply as they are, and whether it is a small piece to a much larger one, is irrelevant in respects to what that particular piece actually is.

Um, no... no it's not. This is not rational at all, this is willful ignorance.

Originally Posted by Somii

Ontological pursuits actually got us past the elephant metaphor of reality, though unfortunately, those who have failed to follow, typically assume something is because of a similar property - assuming the consequent type reasoning.

The fact is, when those of us who up to being rational, become so, we tend to see things simply as they are, and whether it is a small piece to a much larger one, is irrelevant in respects to what that particular piece actually is.

I disagree. The purpose of a small piece can only be understood by observing the larger mechanism. We can use ontological study to discover things like what the piece is made up and what physical properties can be attributed with it but we cannot see a forest by looking at a tree. We can postulate a forest but I've seen all sorts of wise postulations coming from people who cannot grasp the concept with their minds. Regurgitating knowledge is not the same as perceiving an object and ontological study has served more as a means to list judgments about things which end up fogging our perception rather than clarifying it.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

I disagree. The purpose of a small piece can only be understood by observing the larger mechanism. We can use ontological study to discover things like what the piece is made up and what physical properties can be attributed with it but we cannot see a forest by looking at a tree. We can postulate a forest but I've seen all sorts of wise postulations coming from people who cannot grasp the concept with their minds. Regurgitating knowledge is not the same as perceiving an object and ontological study has served more as a means to list judgments about things which end up fogging our perception rather than clarifying it.

You've missed a crucial detail in your disagreement.

You've missed the part where you explain what that is -_-

I was going to read this entire thread but got bored half-way through.

It seems to me that, in what I read, the original poster changed her mind. I think she was talking about objective reality at first, realised she was wrong after reading some of the responses, and changed her opinion on it, then pretended that subjective truth was what she meant all along. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by Dianeva

I was going to read this entire thread but got bored half-way through.

It seems to me that, in what I read, the original poster changed her mind. I think she was talking about objective reality at first, realised she was wrong after reading some of the responses, and changed her opinion on it, then pretended that subjective truth was what she meant all along. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Dianeve did you read my meditation (reply #58)? This is the source of my thoughts for this post. That might clear your thoughts a little further and maybe it won't. I have not changed my mind on this subject, but I do respect and appreciate all perspectives. I only ask that before making a comment as you did above that you read the entire post.
Thank you, Love & Light

Here is another meditation that brought me back to my thoughts of... everything is.
I am always coming from the view that God or Source is within me (us). The window through which I observe life is centered in the penetrating, dark, black hole of my pupils. The eyes are often called the window to the soul. When visions are perceived through my pupils it evokes an emotion and experience, becoming part of my consciousness influencing my vibration and creating who "I am" now. I've been told we are made in the image of God or Source? I see the the black holes of the universe as the pupils of God Source. I see the universe being absorbed by these black holes bringing all it perceives into the consciousness of God. I also feel that Source is constantly evolving and our vibrations have the capacity to change the face of God. As God evolves so does all of existence because we are all a spark of that Source influencing all that is.

I've been having a lot of fun with this. I would love to hear from others.
Much Love and Light to all of you!

I do like the way you think!!

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

I do like the way you think!!

Now that blows me away! Here, all this time I actually thought you were an atheist Darkmatters but you're a believer? Threw me for a complete loop. :p

Saying I like the way someone thinks does not mean I believe the same things they do...

Is that a fact?

Originally Posted by Lidybug

I am always coming from the view that God or Source is within me (us). The window through which I observe life is centered in the penetrating, dark, black hole of my pupils. The eyes are often called the window to the soul. When visions are perceived through my pupils it evokes an emotion and experience, becoming part of my consciousness influencing my vibration and creating who "I am" now. I've been told we are made in the image of God or Source? I see the the black holes of the universe as the pupils of God Source. I see the universe being absorbed by these black holes bringing all it perceives into the consciousness of God. I also feel that Source is constantly evolving and our vibrations have the capacity to change the face of God. As God evolves so does all of existence because we are all a spark of that Source influencing all that is.

So, let me ask you something. What lidybug has mentioned here, can you honestly say that you reason with this information and it's of sound logic to you?

I think that thruth is whatever works. This means that the thruth is relative to whatever you are doing. If something does not work in a given task, it is not the truth and you should try something else. But I dont believe that all things have meaning by themselves. Meaning is where you put it. You can make any event meaningful, but you dont have to. Sometimes it's good not to make things matter so much... You'll be searching for deep hidden meaning in coca cola soon when you could just take it as it is, something to drink. Better to make some things matter more than others I think.