Thread: Another Huge GOD Bash

Originally posted by Awaken4e1


This is who the devil, and always has been.

Isa 54:16 *Lo, I--I have prepared an artisan, Blowing on a fire of coals, And bringing out an instrument for his work, And I have prepared a destroyer to destroy.

Awaken, quoting the Bible does not count as a rebuttal to a logical contradiction present within Christianity.

The fact that the devil exists shows that God is either not all-loving, or not all-powerful. God obviously could've created a universe with no need for evil, but God chose not to, or could not.

is it that hard to understand
they believe true paradise can only be acheived after actively rejecting true horror

well, whatever
this threads lost it's appeal now

As we all know the basic building block of learning is to know the opposite of ‘any’ given thing. One must know hate to know love. One must know unrest, to know peace, to know wont, to know contentment. God placed evil within the garden so that man could tasted of evil, and learn from the experience. So that he would be more than what he was.

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
As we all know the basic building block of learning is to know the opposite of ‘any’ given thing. One must know hate to know love. One must know unrest, to know peace, to know wont, to know contentment. God placed evil within the garden so that man could tasted of evil, and learn from the experience. So that he would be more than what he was.

that's exactly what I meant

would ice-cream taste so good if you had not tasted brocolli

anyway, I'm making a firm committment not to post to this thread anymore
(I'm going to go ridicule the guy who doesn't beleif in aliens over in general discussion)

This + this =

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
As we all know the basic building block of learning is to know the opposite of ‘any’ given thing. One must know hate to know love. One must know unrest, to know peace, to know wont, to know contentment. God placed evil within the garden so that man could tasted of evil, and learn from the experience. So that he would be more than what he was.

Those are all LAWS OF THE REALITY WE LIVE IN. An all-powerful diety could've easily created an existence in which we can know peace without knowing unrest, where we can know love and not know hate. That's the point!!!!!! God can do whatever the fuck he wants!!! He is NOT bound by the "learning by opposites" model you present.

You mention the "basic building block of learning". God could've made that basic building block anything she wanted. The fact that God chose to create the need for evil, shows that God is NOT all-loving. Or NOT all-powerful.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

Originally posted by bradybaker

Those are all LAWS OF THE REALITY WE LIVE IN. An all-powerful diety could've easily created an existence in which we can know peace without knowing unrest, where we can know love and not know hate. That's the point!!!!!! God can do whatever the fuck he wants!!! He is NOT bound by the \"learning by opposites\" model you present. *

You mention the \"basic building block of learning\". God could've made that basic building block anything she wanted. The fact that God chose to create the need for evil, shows that God is NOT all-loving. Or NOT all-powerful.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

There we go again. Smarter then God. Knowing Christians more then we do. In the first place God created the angles and Lucifer was one of them. He, like some of you thought he was smarter then God and knew how things should be and even tried to take Gods place of power. With his free will he turned against God to try and be God. Does that sound like anyone here in this forum?

Maybe some nice mod could split this side-topic off? It doesn't really fit

Originally posted by awaken
This is who the devil, and always has been.

Isa 54:16 Lo, I--I have prepared an artisan, Blowing on a fire of coals, And bringing out an instrument for his work, And I have prepared a destroyer to destroy.

That quote being about the devil is a bit far fetched. The only reference to \"lucifer\" in isaiah is a mistranslation (latin word in a hebrew text?) and a misinterpretation (actually read isaiah 14 - it is clearly talking about an earthly king - the king of babylon).

But lets just ignore that. God is still responsible for the creation of the devil - and by extension everything he does. And you can't claim evil as a sole product of free will as:

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].[/b]

There's no wiggle room here. God created evil. He could have just chosen not to.

As we all know the basic building block of learning is to know the opposite of ‘any’ given thing. One must know hate to know love. One must know unrest, to know peace, to know wont, to know contentment. God placed evil within the garden so that man could tasted of evil, and learn from the experience. So that he would be more than what he was. [/b]

1. Knowing the opposite does not entail performing the opposite. I'm sure my parents never took a life to learn how to make one.

2. Why did god not just create man \"more than he was\" in the first place? Why need the fall from eden? Infinite power allows for anything. Why not create good and evil, give man in innate knowledge of both - but a predisposition to only perform good.

3. If evil is a requirement for good - why is evil punished by god? With no evil there would be no good, and god obviously doesn't want that. Evil/sinners are performing a vital function, allowing people to get to heaven, and should be rewarded under this scheme as much as the good.

There we go again. Smarter then God. Knowing Christians more then we do.[/b]

This isn't an issue of trying to be smarter than god - all brady/universal was doing (and I guess I just did) is point out an inconsistancy in your concept of god.

The problem of evil doesn't require you to \"think you're smarter than god\" or whatever, its just a logical conclusion to evil being in a world created by an omni-everything deity.

And you completely dodged the question.

In the first place God created the angles and Lucifer was one of them. He, like some of you thought he was smarter then God and knew how things should be and even tried to take Gods place of power. With his free will he turned against God to try and be God.[/b]

I love how christians tell stories like these and don't bother to read into them. Sure, it sends a nice little message "don't piss off god like lucifer" but it also wrecks the whole vision of the christian heaven:

If lucifer (who was in heaven) rebelled than heaven is not a perfect place and allows sin, so why is it a desirable place?

So anyway, this story is good news for unbelievers. If christianity is true there's still an avenue for rebellion. Go the underdogs!

-spoon

Originally posted by spoon



I love how christians tell stories like these and don't bother to read into them. Sure, it sends a nice little message \"don't piss off god like lucifer\" but it also wrecks the whole vision of the christian heaven:

If lucifer (who was in heaven) rebelled than heaven is not a perfect place and allows sin, so why is it a desirable place?

-spoon

It says he was thrown out of heaven.
You guys keep making up stuff and think that’s what we believe. God created the heavens not heaven. Jesus said I go to prepare a place for you. Wouldn’t you like him to say that to you?
.
I’ll say it again, Evolution is bull crap and there is no scientific proof of it. It IS a religion.

Originally posted by dreamtamer007
It says he was thrown out of heaven.
You guys keep making up stuff and think that’s what we believe. God created the heavens not heaven. Jesus said I go to prepare a place for you. Wouldn’t you like him to say that to you?

It says he was thrown out of heaven for rebelling against god. Which shouldn't be possible in a perfect place.

Oh, and on the topic of heaven being perfect/without sin. If heaven is perfect/without sin, do people have free will there? If so, why is it possible for the problem of evil to be overcome there and not here? If not, why should anyone want to go to a place where they are completely controlled?

God didn't create heaven?

(ETA: and you're still dodging the question!)

Rev, if you're still with us, go back to the last page and read mine and spoon's posts. I'd really like to hear your response.

Please try to avoid quoting the bible and using 47 words when 6 will suffice.

I think that the whole purpose of creating evil is still unknown to the majority of mankind, so therefore man still considers it to be some kind of mistake on God’s part.

‘It is not mistake, God made the devil to bring out all of man’s ugly carnal nature to reveal it unto him, so he can see what it took to bring him through the experience of evil, and then at the end possess have an understanding for himself what is the gift which God had given him at the cross.

God does not what robots to serve Him, He want creatures who love Him, not out of fear, but from a genuine love from Father to son. So at the end of our walk through evil we will have had a benefit from going though it, and not being removed from it. As the ole’ adage says ‘So what doesn’t kill you makes you better.’

The Rev.

There is a ‘term’ in the bible which is used to describe to one who overcomes all that this world can throw at them. That ‘term’ is coincidentally ‘The Overcomer’ It is said that this ‘one’ who is a group of many who fulfill the word and stand through all of their tests, without faltering.

The Overcomer has to overcome evil, the devil, just as Jesus did.So there has to be evil for him to overcome?’ Right, This is the purpose of evil, ‘to bring man unto a higher state of being though faith and through the fulfillment of God’s promise to him.

The Rev.

God does not what robots to serve Him,[/b]

Can you sin in heaven? If no, then he does want robots to serve him. If yes it isn't perfect, and why were we wanting to go there?

This is the purpose of evil, ‘to bring man unto a higher state of being though faith and through the fulfillment of God’s promise to him.[/b]

If there exists a state higher than our current state then we were not designed by an omnipotent/omniscient deity.

Lets step it out logically:

----------------

Omnipotence allows for the best possible design at a given time.
Omniscience allows for all of time to be known at a given time.
Omniscience/Omnipotence allows for the best possible design, out of all of time, at a given time.

Therefore we were designed by an omnipotent/omniscient being if our current state is greater than every other state.

The purpose of evil is to "bring a man unto a higher state". In other words: state + evil = state++

Therefore there exists a state (state++) which is greater than state.

Therefore we were not designed by an omnipotent/omniscient being.

---------------

The only thing I can see wrong with that is state + evil might be better as evil(state) = state++

-spoon

Originally posted by spoon


The only thing I can see wrong with that is state + evil might be better as evil(state) = state++

-spoon

Regardless of whether it is defined as state + evil or evil(state) -- your proof would hold true, would it not?

Nice work on that! Two *very* large thumbs-up from the peanut gallery!

One would think that with all theses so called ‘logical thinkers’ in here, I don’t even understand why the concept of fundamental learning escapes their though process. Every (human) must learn through attempts, and failures.

Through success which is the good, and to fail is to bring into the experience of the negative, or as it is called evil. While we where yet children we needed some one to take us by the hand, and led us around, because we where not experienced in the fundamental balance of right and wrong, light and dark, good and evil.

This is why God told Man ‘of the tree of the knowledge… don’t eat of it’ because your experience is too limited to be able to handle it. God has given every man the inherent ability to correct his mistakes. But it takes trial and error. It was God’s sole purpose in the garden to expose Man to evil so that he would have a balanced experience within his being, but up to that point in Man’s experience Man was only half perfected, knowing not evil, with which he needed to balance himself.

God even stated in no uncertain terms ‘Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' So this ongoing dispute about the reason for evil, and who is to blame for the condition of this world rests solely on the shoulders of Man himself. God has given Man to tools to make this Earth a Paradise but he takes the gift God has given him and wasted it because of unbelief.

The Rev.

Spoon:

If God (should he exist) created a perfect, timeless solution, would it be able to make it's own free willed choices for good or bad ?
It both can't and won't change. It's already perfect and need not change, and even if it could, it does not experience the framework of time to change within.

In order to create at least the perception of free will, you have to create a solution that moves towards it's own perfection, by it's own choices, and within a consecutive framework of 'time'. Each individual would lend it's choices to the greater whole, leading to the ultimate solution.
This is where genetic evolution makes perfect sense to me.

If time was missing, the creature would be in a fixed state resulting in no real free will. It would be a robot.

And if it was perfect from the beginning, it would need no changes, and thus the idea of 'free will' would be moot. It would be just as it was created, no more no less. No chance to change.

So surely it would make sense to have the perfect solution of creatures obtained through the course of time, by their own choices and interaction with environment ?

Forgive me if this makes little sense, I'm not feeling particularly well today

The point is still being missed, big time. I have a question that will get to the heart of things. If the theists in this discussion will answer one question, things will be much clearer (And PLEASE give a yes/no answer before elaborating. Thanks.)...

The question: Is God bound by any law or laws of reality?

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
One would think that with all theses so called ‘logical thinkers’ in here, I don’t even understand why the concept of fundamental learning escapes their though process. Every (human) must learn through attempts, and failures.
The Rev.

Only because god made it that way...which he didn't have to do, being all omnipotent and everything. He could have just as easily constructed man to adhere to his original plan, even in the face of temptation.

It was God’s sole purpose in the garden to expose Man to evil so that he would have a balanced experience within his being, but up to that point in Man’s experience Man was only half perfected, knowing not evil, with which he needed to balance himself. [/b]

God's \"perfect\" creation succumbed to evil. That fact acknowledges that man was either, not created in perfection or that evil trumped good and there was nothing god could do to prevent evil from doing so.

Maybe god should have read the creation manual a bit closer, especially the section about exposing man to evil when only half perfected.

God does not what robots to serve Him, He want creatures who love Him, not out of fear, but from a genuine love from Father to son.[/b]

That is why he threatens, those that don't love him, with eternal damnation in Hell's fire. :sweat2:

It is not mistake, God made the devil to bring out all of man’s ugly carnal nature to reveal it unto him, so he can see what it took to bring him through the experience of evil, and then at the end possess have an understanding for himself what is the gift which God had given him at the cross. [/b]

So this IS all just a big game...or maybe a saddistic experiment by god.

Spoon wrote:

If there exists a state higher than our current state then we were not designed by an omnipotent/omniscient deity. [/b]

Can you sin in heaven? If no, then he does want robots to serve him. If yes it isn't perfect, and why were we wanting to go there? [/b]

Two fabulous points! I just hope that these points don't go unanswered, like your previous points have in the past.

Originally posted by Universal Mind
The point is still being missed, big time. I have a question that will get to the heart of things. If the theists in this discussion will answer one question, things will be much clearer (And PLEASE give a yes/no answer before elaborating. Thanks.)...

The question: Is God bound by any law or laws of reality?

Yes.

however this is the personal opinion of an open minded atheist

God (and the devil, for that matter) are bound by the laws that man sets down.

- All men are capable of good and evil
- The collective amount of good across the whole of the human population can be brought together into one lump, we call god
- Same for the collective evil

God and the devil are man-made entities, whose sole purpose is to graphically illustrate the joys of decent living, and the torment of selfish living

God and the devil are bound by our laws - the laws we make
These laws will (and have) changed over time
God and the devil will change to reflect that

in my opinion, anyway
over to the Rev.

Originally posted by Ynot+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ynot)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-Universal Mind

The point is still being missed, big time. I have a question that will get to the heart of things. If the theists in this discussion will answer one question, things will be much clearer (And PLEASE give a yes/no answer before elaborating. Thanks.)...

The question: Is God bound by any law or laws of reality?

Yes.

[/b]

Then, by definition, he is not infinitely powerful.

Originally posted by Universal Mind


Then, by definition, he is not infinitely powerful.

I've said all along "HE" (god) doesn't exist

Originally posted by Ynot


I've said all along \"HE\" (god) doesn't exist

I know, but you have been playing devil's advocate. You stopped playing it right at the point where I was looking most forward to your response.

I’ll say it again, Evolution is bull crap and there is no scientific proof of it. It IS a religion. [/b]

So we're back to this. Now, you've just walked into a very solid and formidable wall here. Evolution IS scientifically proven. Through countless observations of species over the ages, we've witnessed evolution. Not large-scale evolution, nothing along the lines of microscopic life growing into apes, but we HAVE watched evolution in smaller scales.
Just a random example: Straight hair is a genetic abnormality that eventually became the norm. Originally, a few hundred years ago, people had all curly hair. Straight hair was a genetic abnormality that tended to be a dominant trait which had no effect on the survival or reproduction of the species. Therefore, over time, straight hair became more common than curly hair.

Evolution has been observed countless times. Not only that, it follows a logical process. If some gene causes trouble reproducing or surviving, that gene isn't going to be passed on. Therefore, later generations will not have that gene.


Now, back to the God issue. You're being pretty close minded. Obviously, Christian religion isn't something that mankind was meant to speculate on, only believe in. THAT, in itself, makes me choose not to have anything to do with it.

Now, here's something for you. You seem intent on quoting scripture. Well, how's this. How many times does the Old Testament speak literally? It is full of metaphors. What's to say that the creation isn't one of them? This could quite possibly be YOUR error in misinterpreting the Bible. What's to say God didn't think that evolution was a damn good way to bring about his finest creation?