Thread: Women’s right to chose

I say, let the woman chose. If she wants it, she will get it. A clinic is better than a wet/dry vac and a clothes hanger.

Originally posted by scorpifly
I say, let the woman chose. If she wants it, she will get it. A clinic is better than a wet/dry vac and a clothes hanger.

christ no kidding

I remember Whoopie Goldburg saying she used a hanger on herself once

Originally posted by kimpossible
Didn't your buddy already establish it has no right to choose until 18?

18 are about making legal choices like your copied signature. We are talking about the right to live.

lol more like womens right to cook and clean.

Originally posted by dreamtamer007+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dreamtamer007)</div>

We are talking about the right to live.[/b]

Yeah we are aren't we. Well you could keep the discussion going by responding to some points, namely:

Originally posted by kimpossible+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kimpossible)</div>

A lump of cells dividing in the womb is no different than a mole growing on the skin. It's just a bunch of cells dividing and growing. [/b]

Originally posted by Universal Mind
I think the most important fact to consider in the abortion debate is that a fetus does not have the neurons involved in conscious experience until the third trimester. So first and second trimester fetuses don't have consciousness, and don't even have the neurons that are responsible for it. Therefore, there is no mind that is being killed in an abortion.

<!--QuoteBegin-spoon@
The amount of lives saved through abortion is 14 times greater than lives stopped. Unless you can demonstrate how a foetus without the emergent property of intelligence is alive.

<!--QuoteBegin-spoon
One third of all pregnancies abort naturally. Doesn't this make god the biggest abortionist of all? If this occurs naturally, as set out by god, why should we not perform it ourselves? He obviously doesn't have a moral problem with the procedure.

Just trying to keep this on track.

-spoon

Originally posted by OpheliaBlue
I remember Whoopie Goldburg saying she used a hanger on herself once

Holy shit...
..now why didn\'t she make a video...then again that might be highly disturbing..

*cough Cough* okay back on topic

Some major religions consider it to be the 'soul' that is important in that case. And even they don't seem to know when their alleged 'soul' comes to exist.
Hence all the crap with cloning.

If you take religion and this unsubstantiated soul out of the equation - my morality dictates that the woman should lose that choice only around the time that the foetus can experience the agony of it and/or comprehend it's own death.
Anybody know at what time a foetus develops a nervous system capable of pain?

Originally posted by Placebo
And even they don't seem to know when their alleged 'soul' comes to exist.
Hence all the crap with cloning.

Oh yeah I thought about that soul bit once too, like I remember some hard core religious person arguing that the soul pops in there RIGHT when the sperm and egg meet.

Well, if that's the case, then what about identical twins? With that logic, identical twins have to share a soul because the division occurs AFTER fertilization.

Good point. Exactly why I don't see a soul as some shady thing you come to automatically inherit. Even the bible says that Adam came to BE a soul, not HAVE a soul.
ie. Everything you are = a soul.

Originally posted by spoon


Just trying to keep this on track.

-spoon

dreamtamer007 wrote:
We are talking about the right to live.
spoon:
Yeah we are aren't we. Well you could keep the discussion going by responding to some points, namely:

kimpossible wrote:
A lump of cells dividing in the womb is no different than a mole growing on the skin. It's just a bunch of cells dividing and growing.
.
I did respond to the Great Kim if you read the following posts. I'm not about to answer all that are apposed to my god-fearing answers because that would be like a full time job. If you get my jest.

Huh?

well, kim's example there was a bit crude to compare it with the development of an embryo. It's not really the same thing.

When you consider the tendency and what would be a natural flow of events, it's a sin against life to cut that life really short. It's not necessarily a religious thing, but just an expression of my conscience on it.

Ok, I don't really like the are you a soul or not argument....you really cannot tell.

No - it was practical and truthful.

Originally posted by Placebo+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Placebo)</div>

Anybody know at what time a foetus develops a nervous system capable of pain? [/b]

Brain waves start around the 24th week and become what you'd expect in a baby outside of the womb in the 26th week.

Originally posted by dreamtamer007+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dreamtamer007)</div>

I did respond to the Great Kim if you read the following posts. [/b]

And if you'd bother to have read anyone else's posts, or the other quots in my last post you'd find that people have adequately answered your question:

Originally posted by kim
Nope. The early-stage fetus, as UM also noted, is nothing more than a lump of cells

I have consciousness going on as well as a lump of cells.

And Universal stated that as well.


<!--QuoteBegin-dreamtamer@
I'm not about to answer all that are apposed to my god-fearing answers because that would be like a full time job. If you get my jest.

Do you mean: you're not going to back up your unsupported position with any sort of evidence? Your objection, that we're just a lump of cells dividing too, has been completely dealt with. Do you want to maybe demonstrate how a bunch of cells without the emergent property of intelligence is different than a bunch of mole cells you burn off?

And I'd really like an answer to my question:

<!--QuoteBegin-I
One third of all pregnancies abort naturally. Doesn't this make god the biggest abortionist of all? If this occurs naturally, as set out by god, why should we not perform it ourselves? He obviously doesn't have a moral problem with the procedure.

-spoon

Spoon:
Do you mean: you're not going to back up your unsupported position with any sort of evidence? Your objection, that we're just a lump of cells dividing too, has been completely dealt with. Do you want to maybe demonstrate how a bunch of cells without the emergent property of intelligence is different than a bunch of mole cells you burn off?

And I'd really like an answer to my question:
.
You said it yourself
Spoon:
Brain waves start around the 24th week and become what you'd expect in a baby outside of the womb in the 26th week.


spoon:
One third of all pregnancies abort naturally. Doesn't this make god the biggest abortionist of all? If this occurs naturally, as set out by god, why should we not perform it ourselves? He obviously doesn't have a moral problem with the procedure.

I can’t answer for what god does or doesn’t do. How is it that you can?

So then abortions before the 24th/26th week are perfectly fine with you?

spoon:
One third of all pregnancies abort naturally. Doesn't this make god the biggest abortionist of all? If this occurs naturally, as set out by god, why should we not perform it ourselves? He obviously doesn't have a moral problem with the procedure.

I can’t answer for what god does or doesn’t do. How is it that you can?[/b]

That's not an answer. If god aborts 1/3 of all pregnancies why can we not perform it ourselves? It's obviously not an immoral act because god is doing it.

The miscarriage rate is not 30%. Some studies say it can get this high in older women over 40, but in women under 40 the rate studies find is somewhere around 10 to 15%.

And the rate after fetal cardiac activity can be detected is much lower according to studies, somewhere between 1 and 2% for women under 40 and about 10 to 15% for women over 40.

You can find heath statistical info on pretty much any decent health site. Most will have similar numbers.

And Wikipedia is not any kind of statistical authority.

Originally posted by spoon
So then abortions before the 24th/26th week are perfectly fine with you?

spoon:
One third of all pregnancies abort naturally. Doesn't this make god the biggest abortionist of all? If this occurs naturally, as set out by god, why should we not perform it ourselves? He obviously doesn't have a moral problem with the procedure.

I can’t answer for what god does or doesn’t do. How is it that you can?

That's not an answer. If god aborts 1/3 of all pregnancies why can we not perform it ourselves? It's obviously not an immoral act because god is doing it.[/b]

G spoon, you sure seem to have all the answers!

Quote your sources, lazy-ass.

Originally posted by dreamtamer
G spoon, you sure seem to have all the answers!

Nice of you to say so. Does that mean you agree, and don't see a problem with abortion before brainwaves are detected (24/26th week?).

And you still didn't my question (do I have all the questions too?). What is bad about abortion is god already aborts 1/3 of pregnancies and we follow the same guidelines?

-spoon

Originally posted by spoon
So I'd still like to know how, from a christian perspective, abortion is bad.

When the hell did I every say I was a Christian?

Originally posted by kimpossible
Quote your sources, lazy-ass.

Like I said you should be able to find similar statistics on any reputable heath site. If you want to verify them or something then get off your lazy ass and do the verification work yourself.

Originally posted by spoon

And the rate after fetal cardiac activity can be detected is much lower according to studies, somewhere between 1 and 2% for women under 40 and about 10 to 15% for women over 40.

This is meaningless. All this says is that most miscarriages occur before this time.[/b]

No it's not meaningless. It means the "natural" abortion rate is not as hap-hazard as you keep trying to imply that it is.

I'm not implying. It's a fact that the miscarriage rate is higher than reported, for the reasons I've already stated. 30% was a conservative estimate I made for the sake of argument.

The "rate after cardiac activity" that you quoted is, as I said, meaningless. All it does is tell us that the majority of miscarriages happen before this time. It does not alter, in any way shape or form, the amount of miscarriages, just the distribution with respect to pregnancy week.

I never thought you were a christian, but since you were arguing about something I was targeting at christians, I thought' I'd restate the question so dreamtamer doesn't get out of answering.

-spoon

Dreamtamer, you have completely ignored what I have written. I told you flat out why I don't think abortion before the third trimester is murder, as have Spoon and Kim. I am very curious to know what your counter argument to the point is. All I see you doing is insulting the posters instead of countering the points.

How can you murder something that has never had a mind?

As for the soul argument, if I lose part of my fingernail, have I lost part of my soul? I don't believe in souls, but my understanding of it is that it is a mind. If your mind doesn't go to Heaven or Hell, then what difference does it make where your soul goes? We can prove that bodies stay on Earth after death, but most religions say that the sould doesn't, and speak of it as though it is one's consciousness. If a soul is a person's consciousness, then the "soul" does not "enter" the body until the third trimester. I would love to know the counter argument to that point.

[quote][quote]

And you still didn't my question (do I have all the questions too?). What is bad about abortion is god already aborts 1/3 of pregnancies and we follow the same guidelines?

-spoon

How can you say what god did or did not do? You think because you can look under a microscope and see what animals can't see that you are above all creation and creator. What a joke. Ask a question that is relevant to something and maybe then it can be answered. What a JOKE. The one that is responsible for you and whoever is responsible for your existence must answer to you. Lol
.
I’m going to say this and not answer any more of your silly questions. The bible says not to cast your pearls before swine for they will trample on it. I tried to help you to see where the term “Woman’s right to choose” is a lie. And that is not what the phrase is referring to (Choosing). It’s referring to ridding of Life! You in your blindness have only tried to trample on my efforts so you are on your own.
Ps Spoon. What you don’t know is I admire your intellect and have read where you have shown even Leo where he’s been, Shall we say, ”out in left field”. I will never be able to prove you wrong about something like abortions or other issues that have no definitive answer. One day you will see there is more then the intellect that drives man and then you might cry out for help. Jesus loves all the little children. Have a nice day.