Is their free will in Heaven?

**Leo Volont** · 02-10-2006 11:25 AM

First, we need to acknowledge that Heaven has always been seen as consisting of Tiers -- there are Higher Levels and Lower Levels. In some of the Metaphorical Descriptions we have a Central City of Heaven as distinguished from the Realm of Heaven that surrounds that Special City. And even in the City, we have the distinctive zone of the Throne Room of God.

In the Very Narrow Precincts closest to God, then there is Only God. The Highest Mystics no longer experience any separation from God in their most intense Visions and Religious Experiences. In the Highest Experience there is not room for more than one Will.

But Heaven stretches down from God. Indeed, when we evaluate the large body of Religious Revelation we find that God's Providence in the World is never direct, but comes to us from either Angelic Agency or the Agency of Saints. In this Agency there is inevitably some individuality.

We can even see some disagreement. Take for instance an example from the Catholic Church. There was a time when the Catholic Church was divided by a dispute regarding a split between Popes and a split between Capitols -- there was a Pope in Avignon France and of course a Pope in Rome. And at this time there were two acknowledged supernatural Saints, both with Divine Sponsorship. One sided with Rome -- Saint Catherine of Siena, and the other sided with Avignon -- Saint Vincent Ferrer. They were both Dominicans, though Catherine did not follow the rest of her Order as they stood almost unanimously behind the Avignon Pope. Now, I myself think Vincent Ferrer to have been more right than Catherine. I think that Catholic Civilization may have survived had the Capitol of Catholicism moved up into West Central Europe. We can see how History worked out with Rome. but both these individuals were 'Saints'. On the Supernatural Scale, Ferrer was the more powerful of the two (indeed, on the same scale, Ferrer was more powerful than Christ Himself).

In less extreme cases, the Saints were not uniform in will and personality. They were different enough to have some certain curiousity about each other. Saint Bernard and Saint Malachi sought each other out and became friends. Bernard also wrote to Saint Helga of Sweden. Saint Francis of Assisi and Saint Dominic were facinated by each other. Clearly they each had an individuality and a will of their own.

Even the Angels have will of their own. Catholicism's foremost Seer and Visionary, Anne Catherine Emmerich, tells of the day Christ was Crucified... that Michael the Archangel wanted to destory Jerusalem immediately and had started with an assault on the Temple. Christ interceded and persuaded Michael to desist for a time. But for a moment this highest of the Angels was of his own will and opinion on the matter. And even then, the destruction of Jerusalem was not dismissed, but only delayed.

Catholics are great believers in Free Will and the belief that Heaven is replete with various Wills and Personalities. it pisses Protestants off. Protestants are absolutists and believe that there is only One Will in the Universe and that all destiny has been pre-ordained. Morality does not matter since nobody has ever had any choice, since God must have been the only Free Will in the Universe -- the Only Will in the Universe. But Catholics believe in the Potent Will of every Separate Saint and Angel in Heaven, and appeal to them for Intercession on that basis -- that each Entity has a separate and effective Will of its own.

It is on this basis of Free Will that Catholics still believe in a Day of Judgment. Protestants, on the other hand believe that they will escape Judgment with some indiscriminate blanket "Rapture" -- that they will not be held responsible for any of their actions... and why should they... since they seem to renounce Free Will in their insistence upon the Absoluteness of God and the Preordained Quality of a Determined and Fixed Destiny.

**InTheMoment** · 02-10-2006 03:16 PM

Originally posted by dreamaccount2000

If you place a marshmellow in front of a 5 year old you dont cause him to eat it. You give him the a chance to make a choice to eat it or not. Perhaps he does not like marshmellows. You could let him starve and not give him anything to eat..You could give him the choice between a marshmellow or a candy bar..Man could have ate of any tree in the garden except one and man choose to eat of the one he was commanded not to eat of.
God created man. God gave man a choice. God knew what mans choice would be. It was still mans choice. God did not make him do it. As I said before the only other choice is create a robot or dont create anyone at all...I kinda like it here myself and dont care to be a robot

I'll put it to you in the clearest way possible...

1. God knows that Adam will partake of the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge, IF he puts a tree of knowledge in the garden.

2. God creates and places the tree of knowledge in the garden.

3. Adam (predictably) eats of the fruit.

If god is truly "all knowing" and the creator of all of this, then in reality we are just bunch of robots living and dying under the illusion (or in my opinion a false concept) of free will.

**Neruo** · 02-10-2006 05:54 PM

Funny how no-one voted 'no'. All the people that do not believe in heaven say 'no', I think, if there would be an heaven.

And all the die hard religious brainwashed poopiefaces vote yes.

- But really, it's a good question for if you think of it heaven could never be perfect. Becouse if people live together in groups there will allways be some sort of anger, jalousy, envy, hate. Something.

The only possible 'ultimately-good-heaven' would only be able within one's mind itself.

But allways people will like having power over others, in every 'heaven' people would create for themselves (self-creation=certainly exactly how you want it) Some things will appear that would not be 'christian'.

I mean rape is fun if you don't go to jail, right

You get the point

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-10-2006 06:02 PM

Originally posted by InTheMoment

I'll put it to you in the clearest way possible...

1. God knows that Adam will partake of the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge, IF he puts a tree of knowledge in the garden.

2. God creates and places the tree of knowledge in the garden.

3. Adam (predictably) eats of the fruit.

If god is truly "all knowing" and the creator of all of this, then in reality we are just bunch of robots living and dying under the illusion (or in my opinion a false concept) of free will.

So, you have a child and there is a stove in your house and you tell the child not to touch the stove. The child disobeys. Then you casued the child to touch the stove just becasue the stove is there?
If a psychic forsees a murder, He or she casued the murder?
Which option would you have prefered? God make you a robot? Or God not create you at all?
Man is the one who choose..Man was told to obey and man did not obey therefore man is responsible. Was not Gods fault man did not obey. God knew he wouldent but that does not change the fact that it was mans choice.

**InTheMoment** · 02-10-2006 06:22 PM

Originally posted by dreamaccount2000

So, you have a child and there is a stove in your house and you tell the child not to touch the stove. The child disobeys. Then you casued the child to touch the stove just becasue the stove is there?
If a psychic forsees a murder, He or she casued the murder?
Which option would you have prefered? God make you a robot? Or God not create you at all?
Man is the one who choose..Man was told to obey and man did not obey therefore man is responsible. Was not Gods fault man did not obey. God knew he wouldent but that does not change the fact that it was mans choice.

Your still not seeing the big picture here. Those analogies do not apply to this argument. Maybe if you were a psychic, who knew 100% that the child would touch the stove and yet you still left the child in front of the stove...then yes you would have a more fitting analogy.

God (in his omniscience) knows what we're going to do, even before we do it...even before we're ever born (created). So if god (being omniscience) still decides to create us (knowing 100% that we'll do something evil), then he (and all of his omnipotence) is ultimately responsible.

The only way to argue against this logic is to reduce god's omnipotence or omniscience...either way your padding your beliefs to comfort your bias.

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-10-2006 06:28 PM

Originally posted by InTheMoment

Your still not seeing the big picture here. Those analogies do not apply to this argument. Maybe if you were a psychic, who knew 100% that the child would touch the stove and yet you still left the child in front of the stove...then yes you would have a more fitting analogy.

God (in his omniscience) knows what we're going to do, even before we do it...even before we're ever born (created). So if god (being omniscience) still decides to create us (knowing 100% that we'll do something evil), then he (and all of his omnipotence) is ultimately responsible.

The only way to argue against this logic is to reduce god's omnipotence or omniscience...either way your padding your beliefs to comfort your bias.

You did not answer the question. Would you rather he had made us robots or not created us at all? Which would it be?

Also by this logic, Alcohol companies should be responsible for drunk driving deaths because they know for a fact it is going to happen yet they supply it anyway.. Also lets hold the gun comapnies and tobacoo companies responsible... It is a fact that people will die from these things and the compaines know it... Hold them responsible ?

**bradybaker** · 02-10-2006 07:05 PM

Originally posted by dreamaccount2000
Would you rather he had made us robots or not created us at all? Which would it be?

It doesn't matter 'what you would rather'. Personal opinions have no bearing on actual explanations of reality.

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-10-2006 07:13 PM

Originally posted by bradybaker

It doesn't matter 'what you would rather'. Personal opinions have no bearing on actual explanations of reality.

How about answering the other part of that post?

**bradybaker** · 02-10-2006 07:18 PM

Originally posted by dreamaccount2000
How about answering the other part of that post?

I agree, tobacoo, gun and alcohol companies should be held responsible. But you're still not even close to getting the point.

**InTheMoment** · 02-10-2006 07:21 PM

Originally posted by dreamaccount2000+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dreamaccount2000)</div>

You did not answer the question. Would you rather he had made us robots or not created us at all? Which would it be?[/b]

I don't believe in god. If he did exist then I really wouldn't care either way, it's not like it would matter.

<!--QuoteBegin-dreamaccount2000

Also by this logic, Alcohol companies should be responsible for drunk driving deaths because they know for a fact it is going to happen yet they supply it anyway.. Also lets hold the gun comapnies and tobacoo companies responsible... It is a fact that people will die from these things and the compaines know it... Hold them responsible ?

More false analogies...the alcohol, tobacco and firearm companies did not create man.

**Leo Volont** · 02-10-2006 07:42 PM

Originally posted by InTheMoment

That's what I don't get...how could an all loving creator curse mankind with being born into sin based on the actions of two individuals? God placed the Tree of Knowledge in the garden to tempt Adam & Eve, knowing full well what they would do...being omniscient and all. So in the end, god is responsible for the sin, suffering and evil of mankind.

Here is the perfect example of a Paulist Calvinist.

Now, does anyone any longer wonder why I insist that these Protestants are the Antichrist?

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-10-2006 07:43 PM

Originally posted by InTheMoment

More false analogies...the alcohol, tobacco and firearm companies did not create man.

Does not matter if they created man or not... We are talking about foreknowledge. You said that becasue God knows what will happen and creates man anyway then he is responsible... These compaines supply their product with the foreknowledge that peope will die from them.. Are they responsibile? Why or why not?

**InTheMoment** · 02-10-2006 07:49 PM

Originally posted by dreamaccount2000

Does not matter if they created man or not... We are talking about foreknowledge. You said that becasue God knows what will happen and creates man anyway then he is responsible... These compaines supply their product with the foreknowledge that peope will die from them.. Are they responsibile? Why or why not?

YOU are talking about foreknowledge...I'm talking about foreknowledge AND providing ALL the necessary elements to have said actions to take place. Big difference.

I'll discuss my opinion(s) on alcohol and tobacco company's responsibilities in the appropiate forum.

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-10-2006 07:55 PM

Originally posted by InTheMoment

YOU are talking about foreknowledge...I'm talking about foreknowledge AND providing ALL the necessary elements to have said actions to take place. Big difference.

I'll discuss my opinion(s) on alcohol and tobacco company's responsibilities in the appropiate forum.

We have all the here. The companies have the foreknowledge and they have provided all the elelments necessary for the actions to take place..I dont see any diffrence... So we are at a standstill..

**Leo Volont** · 02-10-2006 07:55 PM

Originally posted by Neruo
Funny how no-one voted 'no'. All the people that do not believe in heaven say 'no', I think, if there would be an heaven.

Well, isn't there a Hell?

Those whom God cannot trust with Free Will are simply not allowed into Heaven. They are kept outside of Heaven, and this 'Outer Darkness', because of its Demographics, is what makes it a Hell. You see, people who use their Free Will to hone their predatory skills, these are the people who find themselves in Hell together, and it is their resultant conflicts and endeavers to exercise dominion over each other that occassion all of the controlling tortures and torments Hell is known for. God has nothing to do with them. We can imagine Satan receiving such as Hitler, Stalin or Napoleon into Hell. Why these are formidable Souls and known leaders of great capacity and personal charisma. How then should Satan receive them but with anxious jealousy and caution. We must understand that where in Heaven God can enjoy honest loyalty, in Hell there are no such admirable qualities, and Satan has only treason and subversion to expect. So these new Souls in Hell are thrown into chains and intimidated with torments, all before they can gather a rebellious following of conspirious souls to upset the established order. So it is Satan and those damned souls already set up in Hell who are responsible for the agonies administered there, not God, who is only grateful that He does not have to deal with them.

**InTheMoment** · 02-10-2006 08:00 PM

Originally posted by dreamaccount2000

We have all the here. The companies have the foreknowledge and they have provided all the elelments necessary for the actions to take place..I dont see any diffrence... So we are at a standstill..

Again, your limiting the scenario with your analogy. If you're going to stay focused on such a restricting and ill represented analogy, then yes we will remain at a standstill.

I don't play the strawman game. If so, I would ask you if those companies created man.

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-10-2006 08:11 PM

Originally posted by InTheMoment

Again, your limiting the scenario with your analogy. If you're going to stay focused on such a restricting and ill represented analogy, then yes we will remain at a standstill.

I don't play the strawman game. If so, I would ask you if those companies created man.

Tell me why it would be diffrent if those companies created man? My arguement is not a strawman... For the sake of arguement what would you have done had you been God ( i know you dont beleive in God.. Thats not the debate) What would u have done?

**InTheMoment** · 02-10-2006 08:34 PM

Originally posted by dreamaccount2000

Tell me why it would be diffrent if those companies created man? My arguement is not a strawman... For the sake of arguement what would you have done had you been God ( i know you dont beleive in God.. Thats not the debate) What would u have done?

I would've scrapped the whole idea of creating man and pump out more Victoria Secret Angels.

~

However, for the sake of advancing the discussion I'll address your analogy. Yes, I believe those companies are partly responsible.

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-10-2006 08:36 PM

Originally posted by bradybaker

I agree, tobacoo, gun and alcohol companies should be held responsible. But you're still not even close to getting the point.

And the point is?

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-10-2006 08:42 PM

Originally posted by InTheMoment

I would've scrapped the whole idea of creating man and pump out more Victoria Secret Angels. ~

However, for the sake of advancing the discussion I'll address your analogy. Yes, I believe those companies are partly responsible.

I have no complaints about more victoria secret angels

... The more the better
But God would have either had to make man a robot or not create him at all.. Thats the only point Im trying to make..

**InTheMoment** · 02-10-2006 08:48 PM

Originally posted by dreamaccount2000

I have no complaints about more victoria secret angels ... The more the better
But God would have either had to make man a robot or not create him at all.. Thats the only point Im trying to make..

I agree. There is no logical way that an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent god to exist, let alone create an entity that wasn't a robot.

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-10-2006 08:52 PM

Originally posted by InTheMoment

I agree. There is no logical way that an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent god to exist, let alone create an entity that wasn't a robot.

Not the point I was making

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-10-2006 09:04 PM

Originally posted by InTheMoment

I would've scrapped the whole idea of creating man and pump out more Victoria Secret Angels. ~

However, for the sake of advancing the discussion I'll address your analogy. Yes, I believe those companies are partly responsible.

Also, I would have to disagree...These companies did not make anybody drink or smoke or shoot anyone...These people do that of their own freewill

**InTheMoment** · 02-10-2006 09:18 PM

Originally posted by dreamaccount2000

Also, I would have to disagree...These companies did not make anybody drink or smoke or shoot anyone...These people do that of their own freewill

See, this is why I didn't want to answer this particular question. It deviates from the original topic too much. If you would like to discuss the responsibilities of those companies then we should start another thread.

But that particular analogy doesn't hold merit within this discussion. A more fitting analogy would be if those companies created man, gave them free will and then created their products; knowing 100% that man would indulge.

**Genjyo** · 02-11-2006 01:26 AM

Hi Dreamaccount, I share your viewpoint concerning free will. God, having complete knowledge of the outcome, does not impede us from making decisions. We are freely choosing, so it is not illusionary. He simply knows the results ahead of time.

InTheMoment, I understand your reasoning. It doesn't seem right for God to have created children knowing fully well some would betray him.

I'm going to try to explain what I've narrowed it down to and its theologically laden:

God created intelligent beings so they could exist and decide for themselves. This means a portion of them would love him and gain happiness. My conclusion is that in the new heaven, all who have decided to love him will exist in a place that is better than anything imaginable.

2 Cor 2:9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"

This passage refers to God's new creation which is God's purpose for us in the Bible, that is practically where the Bible ends by mentioning new things to come. However, wickedness, evil, and suffering will have ceased to exist for all times. That is the perfect creation.

I've gone way off topic sorry, but that would explain how free will exists, one just has to see the bigger picture. As for free will in the current heaven, it's very likely the celestial beings have multitudes of freedom in goodness. I can see free will without there being evil. It's just beyond me to fully visualize it

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