Is their free will in Heaven?

**InTheMoment** · 02-08-2006 09:21 PM

This question is mainly directed to those who believe in a heaven as a spiritual realm where our souls can transcend after death.

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-08-2006 10:49 PM

Originally posted by InTheMoment
This question is mainly directed to those who believe in a heaven as a spiritual realm where our souls can transcend after death.

Thats a very good question. I would think the answer would be no, at least in the sense that once we are in heaven we will no longer choose or at least desire to choose evil..

**InTheMoment** · 02-08-2006 10:54 PM

Originally posted by dreamaccount2000

Thats a very good question. I would think the answer would be no, at least in the sense that once we are in heaven we will no longer choose or at least desire to choose evil..

Well according to the bible that is true...which raises another question; why didn't god (the Judeo-christian model) just make us like that from the start? Taking into account he is omnibenelovent and omnipotent of course.

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-08-2006 11:09 PM

Originally posted by InTheMoment

Well according to the bible that is true...which raises another question; why didn't god (the Judeo-christian model) just make us like that from the start? Taking into account he is omnibenelovent and omnipotent of course.

Well, from my limited understanding, God wanted a relationship with man. A love relationship . This would require man to choose God of his own freewill...Now there is a branch of Christianity called Calvinsim that does not believe that man has freewill. They believe that God alone decides who will go to heaven and who will go to hell.

Once we get to heaven and our desires are changed is it still a freewill love relationship? Is it that our will has been tampered with or is it the fact that we have been changed and our desires are no longer desires of the flesh? I dont know... A lot of hard questions and no easy answers..

**wombing** · 02-09-2006 07:00 AM

this is my main point against christians who feel they are 'saved by the blood of the lamb" on one hand, and yet irreparably tainted by original sin while on earth.

they basically write everyone off as pathetic, tainted spirits trapped in physical bodies. your only hope is to fully accept this, grovel before god, and wait to die. then you'll suddenly be made perfect.

often i wish people like this would committ mass suicide and let the rest of us have a chance to overcome the baser aspects of human nature and create heaven on earth.

if god granted every christian complete purity, he would be changing the basic nature of what makes us human (according to christians). it maddens me that they fail to see this would essentially obliterate them as they were when they died.

no person is the same for even a second. without the continual progression, there isn't an individual entity...

bah

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-09-2006 05:03 PM

Originally posted by Asher
this is my main point against christians who feel they are 'saved by the blood of the lamb" on one hand, and yet irreparably tainted by original sin while on earth.

If the bible be true then this is true.

*they basically write everyone off as pathetic, tainted spirits trapped in physical bodies. your only hope is to fully accept this, grovel before god, *and wait to die. then you'll suddenly be made perfect.[/b]

Not all think this way but there are some. And you are correct.. Its pathetic

*often i wish people like this would committ mass suicide and let the rest of us have a chance to overcome the baser aspects of human nature and create heaven on earth.[/b]

It seems that wishing that people we dont agree with would commit mass suicide is one of the baser aspects that we should try to overcome. How do we overcome the baser aspects of human nature?

if god granted every christian complete purity, he would be changing the basic nature of what makes us human (according to christians). it maddens me that they fail to see this would essentially obliterate them as they were when they died.[/b]

Not sure I understand the statement

**Neruo** · 02-09-2006 05:16 PM

A heaven without free choise... That would kind of go against all 'omg ppl can sjoose wetter thay r wanting 2 goez 2 heffen 0r h3llz!111!!' stuff.

If there was a heaven, there would have been free choise or an illusion of it. Aslong as people think they have free choice they are happy. If they don't, it's not cool. Heaven is supposed to be cool so there would have to be fc in heaven.

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-09-2006 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Neruo
A heaven without free choise... That would kind of go against all 'omg ppl can sjoose wetter thay r wanting 2 goez 2 heffen 0r h3llz!111!!' stuff.

If there was a heaven, there would have been free choise or an illusion of it. Aslong as people think they have free choice they are happy. If they don't, it's not cool. Heaven is supposed to be cool so there would have to be fc in heaven.

Free choice yes.. But the ability to choose evil? Or perhaps there will be the ability but no longer the desire..

**InTheMoment** · 02-09-2006 05:27 PM

Originally posted by dreamaccount2000

Free choice yes.. But the ability to choose evil? Or perhaps there will be the ability but no longer the desire..

That's basically the meat of my argument. If people have the ability to choose too commit evil acts in heaven, then evil is able to exist in heaven...a contradiction to the bible. If god removes our desire to commit sin (once in heaven) then why couldn't he have done that from the start?

**Neruo** · 02-09-2006 05:45 PM

Originally posted by InTheMoment

That's basically the meat of my argument. If people have the ability to choose too commit evil acts in heaven, then evil is able to exist in heaven...a contradiction to the bible. If god removes our desire to commit sin (once in heaven) then why couldn't he have done that from the start?

Becouse he is a fag. God could create infinity happy-ness n shit. No pain, no suffering. Yet he fucked us up so we are all a bunch of hating, whining, silly bastards =)

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-09-2006 05:54 PM

Originally posted by InTheMoment

That's basically the meat of my argument. If people have the ability to choose too commit evil acts in heaven, then evil is able to exist in heaven...a contradiction to the bible. If god removes our desire to commit sin (once in heaven) then why couldn't he have done that from the start?

Well, evil can happen in heaven. Lucifer was cast out of heaven for his rebellion against God. In the book of Job he is appearing before God and accussing Job.
Now, Im not so sure that its God that removes our desires( though that could be true). It could be that once we are there and our desires change of our own will when we see him for who he is...

We were not created with a desire to sin.. We were created in innocence.. Adam of his own freewill chose to sin..
Lots of good questions, And I will admit that you think alot like I do.. I question a lot.... The freewill question is one that has bugged me a long time... How it is compatable with Gods foreknowledge ect....

**Neruo** · 02-09-2006 06:14 PM

In MY heaven I would like to rape woman. But I don't think I will be allowed to do that, will I now? : ( Better go to hell, more hot secks there.

Point is: heaven r teh sucks ^__^

**InTheMoment** · 02-09-2006 06:45 PM

Originally posted by dreamaccount2000
Now, Im not so sure that its God that removes our desires( though that could be true). It could be that once we are there and our desires change of our own will when we see him for who he is...

I would have to say that if god is truly omnipotent, then he is the one responsible for our desires...evil or not. Even if he assigns us free-will (which I believe is illogical), he is still ultimately responsible for the sins that we commit.

We were not created with a desire to sin.. We were created in innocence.. Adam of his own freewill chose to sin.. [/b]

That's what I don't get...how could an all loving creator curse mankind with being born into sin based on the actions of two individuals? God placed the Tree of Knowledge in the garden to tempt Adam & Eve, knowing full well what they would do...being omniscient and all. So in the end, god is responsible for the sin, suffering and evil of mankind.

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-09-2006 06:58 PM

I would have to say that if god is truly omnipotent, then he is the one responsible for our desires...evil or not. Even if he assigns us free-will (which I believe is illogical), he is still ultimately responsible for the sins that we commit. [/b]

How is he responsible for the sins we commit?

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-09-2006 07:16 PM

Originally posted by InTheMoment

That's what I don't get...how could an all loving creator curse mankind with being born into sin based on the actions of two individuals?

You are still born with a choice to choose the good or choose the evil...

God placed the Tree of Knowledge in the garden to tempt Adam & Eve, knowing full well what they would do...being omniscient and all. So in the end, god is responsible for the sin, suffering and evil of mankind.[/b]

Becasue someone knows something does not mean they cause it.. For example. If you and I both watch a movie and I have seen the movie before then I know what will happen.. That does not mean I caused it to happen.
God put the tree in the garden and gave a command...Adam had the freewill to obey or disobey.. God knew already what Adam would choose.. God did not force Adam to make those choices..

2 other things God could have done....
#1 Create man without freewill... Basically a robot....Would you want someone to love you becasue you programed them that way or would you want them to love you of their own freewill?

#2 Not create man at all

You say that God is responsible for sin and suffering but if God does exist then he is responsible for creation period.. If he does exist then you and Iexist becasue of him....
The bible does say that God created evil... This is understood that God created man with the freewill to choose evil

**bradybaker** · 02-09-2006 10:11 PM

Originally posted by dreamaccount2000
For example. If you and I both watch a movie and I have seen the movie before then I know what will happen.. That does not mean I caused it to happen.

A poor analogy. A more fitting one would involved you being the writer, director, producer and star of the movie. In that case, you did cause it to happen.

God is not defined as a viewer, her/her/it is in charge of the whole production.

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-09-2006 10:17 PM

Originally posted by bradybaker

A poor analogy. A more fitting one would involved you being the writer, director, producer and star of the movie. In that case, you did cause it to happen.

God is not definer as a viewer, her/her/it is in charge of the whole production.

Not sure I understand..You believe that God is the casue of all that happens?

**bradybaker** · 02-09-2006 10:41 PM

Originally posted by dreamaccount2000
Not sure I understand..You believe that God is the casue of all that happens?

I don't believe in god at all.

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-09-2006 10:42 PM

Originally posted by bradybaker

I don't believe in god at all.

Kind of what I thought but I did not understand your post

**bradybaker** · 02-09-2006 11:43 PM

I was just pointing out your flawed analogy.

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-09-2006 11:46 PM

Originally posted by bradybaker
I was just pointing out your flawed analogy.

The analogy may not be the best in the world but the concept is true.. Knowledge of an event does not = causing the event

**wasup** · 02-10-2006 02:20 AM

But... creating something with knowledge of what will happen IS causing the event. If I place a marshmellow in front of a five year old and walk away... I cause him to eat it. If I didn't want him to eat it, I wouldn't place the marshmellow there. As bradybaker said, your analogy is not very good (granted, mine isn't either). God supposedly had control when he "created the tree of knowledge", etc. With your movie scenario, it would just be like god being able to see into the future but not creating the tree and letting Adam sin. Though it is not.

**dreamaccount2000** · 02-10-2006 03:22 AM

Originally posted by ataraxis
But... creating something with knowledge of what will happen IS causing the event. *If I place a marshmellow in front of a five year old and walk away... I cause him to eat it. *If I didn't want him to eat it, I wouldn't place the marshmellow there. *As bradybaker said, your analogy is not very good (granted, mine isn't either). *God supposedly had control when he "created the tree of knowledge", etc. *With your movie scenario, it would just be like god being able to see into the future but not creating the tree and letting Adam sin. *Though it is not.

If you place a marshmellow in front of a 5 year old you dont cause him to eat it. You give him the a chance to make a choice to eat it or not. Perhaps he does not like marshmellows. You could let him starve and not give him anything to eat..You could give him the choice between a marshmellow or a candy bar..Man could have ate of any tree in the garden except one and man choose to eat of the one he was commanded not to eat of.
God created man. God gave man a choice. God knew what mans choice would be. It was still mans choice. God did not make him do it. As I said before the only other choice is create a robot or dont create anyone at all...I kinda like it here myself and dont care to be a robot

**Darkmatic** · 02-10-2006 04:32 AM

Heres what i think .

Lets say we are using Christians as an example .

Anyone who obeys EVERYTHING in the Christian bible does not have free will on earth . And thus , the only people who will get into heaven are people who follow blindly without question , people who had no free will to start with but the will of GOD . And so in heaven also , they will have no free will , they will live in heaven as they did on earth , as that is supposedly the kind of person GOD wants in heaven . You cant do anything you want in heaven , there must be rules to adhere to , as GOD likes rules , and if you dont adhere to them for eternity(cos thats how long you'll be there) then its the one way ticket to the fiery lake . There was someone else in the bible who didnt like Gods rules , one of Gods creations , he wanted free will . His name was LUCIFER . And now , he dwells in the fires beneath .

I hope you like being opressed , and i hope you like white , boredom , no pleasures of life amoung other things . Because if you follow the bible and believe your going to heaven , thats what to expect .

BTW , i dont believe in GOD , i think when i die there is nothing , and thats how i sleep at night .

(No offence to Christians , i was also baptised as one , but i have come to certain realisations about the Christian faith ) .

**wasup** · 02-10-2006 06:55 AM

Originally posted by dreamaccount2000

If you place a marshmellow in front of a 5 year old you dont cause him to eat it. You give him the a chance to make a choice to eat it or not. *Perhaps he does not like marshmellows. You could let him starve and not give him anything to eat..You could give him the choice between a marshmellow or a candy bar..Man could have ate of any tree in the garden except one and man choose to eat of the one he was commanded not to eat of.
God created man. God gave man a choice. God knew what mans choice would be. It was still mans choice. God did not make him do it. As I *said before the only other choice is create a robot or dont create anyone at all...I kinda like it here myself and dont care to be a robot

Err... if you have precognitive abilities, then you indirectly cause him to eat it by putting the marshmellow in front of him. Sure, you could *say* that there's a "choice," but since God knew that whoever would eat whatever then he caused it by placing the whatever there.