Thread: Is their free will in Heaven?

Originally posted by InTheMoment

I don't have a problem with that...it's the alternative that doesn't make sense, when speaking of an all-loving and omnipotent god.

I'm still going over the concept of hell, but have concluded it cannot be a place where humans or their souls get tortured by demons. If that were so, God's punishment for them would be considered a blessing from their point of view.

If you go to an encyclopedia you'll get all that words that became known as hell. To sum it up, the only hell I can think of existing now is a place inhabited by demons who are completely separated from God's presence.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment

If am wrong about this and there is a hell where human sinners will go, I still believe hell will not be a place of eternal punishment.

One can read Revelation 20:9-10 and sense something eternal and the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The key words are for ever and ever. In Deuteronomy 14:16-17

16 And if it happens that he says to you, ‘I will not go away from you,’ because he loves you and your house, since he prospers with you, 17 then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant for ever. Also to your female servant you shall do likewise.

Clearly the servant won't remain one for all eternity, but for the duration of that person's life. In Revelation, it doesn't make sense to say "for all eternity and ever", because you cannot add to an eternity. Eternity or infinity cannot be measured or quantified. Does that make sense? I wouldn't mind some input from people more knowledgeable with the subject of infinity. Either way, if I'm thinking about this correctly, a person in hell will be there to pay for his/her sins, not in torture but in separation and for a finite time.

It just seems more logical to have created it like that from the start [/b]

That is actually quite telling of the Creator. He could have chosen to end up to the very end bypassing everything else. Even so, he gives his creation the opportunity to live and make their decisions. God enjoys working and he reflects upon his labor. He calls this a "good" and "very good" creation, but is gearing up for his new creation. I probably shouldn't have tried to summarize everything and expect to provide all the answers, but at least I can see the logic of this universe. If everything is recycled THEN it wouldn't make sense and there would be no point in having evil. Once is all it takes and we are in it!

I can't.[/b]

At least you honestly thought about it.

Originally posted by Genjyo
I'm still going over the concept of hell, but have concluded it cannot be a place where humans or their souls get tortured by demons. If that were so, God's punishment for them would be considered a blessing from their point of view.

Maybe I'm tired right now, but I don't get what your trying to say in that last sentence.

If am wrong about this and there is a hell where human sinners will go, I still believe hell will not be a place of eternal punishment.[/b]

I grew up in a Southern Baptist atmosphere and attended a Christian school up till high school and they always taught of a place where demons poke pitchforks at your prosterior and the turkey sandwiches are always too dry.

It just goes to show how open the bible is to interpretation.

Either way, if I'm thinking about this correctly, a person in hell will be there to pay for his/her sins, not in torture but in separation and for a finite time.[/b]

And where do think they go after their time is served?

I probably shouldn't have tried to summarize everything and expect to provide all the answers, but at least I can see the logic of this universe.[/b]

This is where you and I differ...if god is so great and perfect, then why are their so many imperfections within his creation. I for one know that I could do a much better job...given I was omnipotent and all.

Maybe I'm tired right now, but I don't get what your trying to say in that last sentence. [/b]

Instead of receiving a punishment from God, they would be granted something they long for, torturing humans in many ways and forms. Basically, it would be paradise for the demons.

I grew up in a Southern Baptist atmosphere and attended a Christian school up till high school and they always taught of a place where demons poke pitchforks at your prosterior and the turkey sandwiches are always too dry...It just goes to show how open the bible is to interpretation. [/b]

I don't see how one could gather pitchforks from the bible. So in effect, that is not a biblical interpretation. Finding tons of bread, but nothing to put in between them would be even worse.

And where do think they go after their time is served?[/b]

Please understand I am speaking as if there is a hell for humans. If that were so, I suppose after their time is spent there, maybe complete inexistence follows.

this is where you and I differ...if god is so great and perfect, then why are their so many imperfections within his creation. I for one know that I could do a much better job...given I was omnipotent and all.[/b]

Which imperfections are you referring to? If you are referring to injustice, greed, hunger.. etc, it's due to mistakes of administration by mankind.

Instead of receiving a punishment from God, they would be granted something they long for, torturing humans in many ways and forms. Basically, it would be paradise for the demons. [/b]

Ah ok, I see what you mean. What do you think happens to pedophiles and rapist once they die (assuming they haven't asked Jesus into their heart)?

I don't see how one could gather pitchforks from the bible. So in effect, that is not a biblical interpretation. Finding tons of bread, but nothing to put in between them would be even worse. [/b]

lol...sorry about my liberal attempt at humor, I didn't really mean that was what we were taught. However, it was too some degree very similiar. ~

Please understand I am speaking as if there is a hell for humans. If that were so, I suppose after their time is spent there, maybe complete inexistence follows. [/b]

That doesn't sound like the plan of an omnibenevolent deity. It sounds kind of cruel and unnecessary actually.

Which imperfections are you referring to?[/b]

Cancer, natural birth defects/miscarriages, the design of our throat, male pattern baldness, natural disasters, the appendix, etc...

Originally posted by InTheMoment
Ah ok, I see what you mean. What do you think happens to pedophiles and rapist once they die (assuming they haven't asked Jesus into their heart)?

They'll remain dead until judgement is passed on to them. This very likely applies to people all over the spectrum.

lol...sorry about my liberal attempt at humor, I didn't really mean that was what we were taught. However, it was too some degree very similiar. ~[/b]

I knew you were being funny, at least in regards to the sandwiches.

That doesn't sound like the plan of an omnibenevolent deity. It sounds kind of cruel and unnecessary actually.[/b]

Do you believe people who commit moral crimes ought to be punished?

Cancer, natural birth defects/miscarriages, the design of our throat, male pattern baldness, natural disasters, the appendix, etc...[/b]

We live in a fallen world which affects us primarily and to a degree, nature itself. So cancer, birth defects, miscarriages, and other problems are a result of sin. Since we are in a state of deterioration, we can't alienate ourselves from the effects. Natural disasters are tragic when they take many lives, but if it wasn't for earthquakes, hurricanes, volcanic erruptions etc, Earth would be completely uninhabitable.

I'll have to claim ignorance on the design of the throat because no one that I know of died because of the design alone, but doing something contrary to the purpose of it or simply by accident. I haven't studied the appendix issue greatly sorry.

Male pattern baldness (<--like this happy guy) I myself even shaved my head a few years back. Trust me, there are plenty of bald people that have accomplished a great deal and continue to do so.

Do you believe people who commit moral crimes ought to be punished?[/b]

Depends on the crime...morality is very subjective. I don't think it's fair to damn someone's soul to hell (for any amount of time), no matter what their offense. This of course stemming from the viewpoint that god (if he existed) is responsible for all that we do...this includes sin.

We live in a fallen world which affects us primarily and to a degree, nature itself. So cancer, birth defects, miscarriages, and other problems are a result of sin. Since we are in a state of deterioration, we can't alienate ourselves from the effects. [/b]

See, this is one of the many aspects that I (assuming the role of god) would have improved upon in creating the universe. I would not have tempted Adam with the Tree of Knowledge (knowing full well what he would do) and then condemn the rest of humanity to a world of imperfection and sin. An all loving god, would have made things a lot different.

Natural disasters are tragic when they take many lives, but if it wasn't for earthquakes, hurricanes, volcanic erruptions etc, Earth would be completely inhabitable. [/b]

But an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god could have created an inhabitable planet that didn't require such disasters.

Originally posted by InTheMoment
Depends on the crime...morality is very subjective. I don't think it's fair to damn someone's soul to hell (for any amount of time), no matter what their offense. This of course stemming from the viewpoint that god (if he existed) is responsible for all that we do...this includes sin.

So would you agree that a person breaking the law deserves to be punished per the nature of the crime?

See, this is one of the many aspects that I (assuming the role of god) would have improved upon in creating the universe. I would not have tempted Adam with the Tree of Knowledge (knowing full well what he would do) and then condemn the rest of humanity to a world of imperfection and sin. An all loving god, would have made things a lot different...But an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god could have created an inhabitable planet that didn't require such disasters.[/b]

Romans 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

God, in his omniscience, knew the majority of his creation would betray him. What did he do?

He created the best universe possible that would bring about the conquest of evil.

First, in order to love, you must have the freedom to want to love. This means both angels and humans utilize their reasoning power. God's sovereignty came into question by free will beings, so this meant putting rebellion to the test, dire consequences and all, but with purpose.

Secondly, the arena had been provided to settle this question. Breakdown occurs, order turns to disorder, organisms live for so long, energy dissipates etc, this universe is made so we can be tested by Lucifer, but NOT to the point where we cannot oppose him and choose God's love.

We live in a world where even a simple cold can make the strongest, most intelligent person get down and see everything has its limits.

So would you agree that a person breaking the law deserves to be punished per the nature of the crime?[/b]

Yes

God, in his omniscience, knew the majority of his creation would betray him. What did he do?

He created the best universe possible that would bring about the conquest of evil.[/b]

This makes god appear to be more of a drama queen, rather than all loving entity.

Again, I could've done a lot better if I was god...and that's not saying too much.

Secondly, the arena had been provided to settle this question. Breakdown occurs, order turns to disorder, organisms live for so long, energy dissipates etc, this universe is made so we can be tested by Lucifer, but NOT to the point where we cannot oppose him and choose God's love. [/b]

Unfortunately that arena wasn't designed large enough to encompass the entire planet. What about the majority of people in this world who either believe in a different god(s) and belief system or outright don't believe in anything at all?

I hate to turn this discussion towards a different path once again, but I should have realized that in pointing out an illogical aspect of Christianity, that other logical impossiblities would arise.

Originally posted by dreamaccount2000


Well, from my limited understanding, God wanted a relationship with man. A love relationship . This would require

Okay, that is the exact point where my disagreement (with the concept, but apparently not you personally) becomes very extreme. There is no "require" in regard to an infinitely powerful being, by definition. (Borisstarseed, give me your best counter argument. I can't wait to read it.)

Originally posted by InTheMoment

Unfortunately that arena wasn't designed large enough to encompass the entire planet. What about the majority of people in this world who either believe in a different god(s) and belief system or outright don't believe in anything at all?...I hate to turn this discussion towards a different path once again, but I should have realized that in pointing out an illogical aspect of Christianity, that other logical impossiblities would arise.

By arena, I meant the entire universe and its timeline. Civilizations, even savage ones, that were never introduced to any of this will be judged differently. For example, in Romans 2:11-16 speaks of the "law written in their heart", their sense of right and wrong.

Ultimately no one is without excuse. Nature itself testifies. Romans 2:19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Originally posted by Genjyo

By arena, I meant the entire universe and its timeline. Civilizations, even savage ones, that were never introduced to any of this will be judged differently. For example, in Romans 2:11-16 speaks of the "law written in their heart", their sense of right and wrong.

That's a very liberal interpretation.

What about tribal warriors of New Guinea that engage in homo-erotic behavior with pubescent boys as part of their rite of passage?

http://www.gettingit.com/article/56

Bizarre homosexual rites are practiced extensively by numerous Melanesian tribesmen in New Guinea and adjacent islands. Young boys must "accumulate" semen for several years, either by regularly receiving anal penetration, or by swallowing the ejaculations of older males they fellate. This ancient custom springs from a religious belief system that regards sperm as the essential conduit of masculine energy; puny boys, they believe, are only transformed into virile warriors if they ingest large quantities of sperm.[/b]

Is god really so biased as to allow certain cultures to go against his word and still permit them into heaven, since they were raised to believe otherwise?

Also, why do Christians send out so many missionaries to foreign lands if this is true?

That's a very liberal interpretation...What about tribal warriors of New Guinea that engage in homo-erotic behavior with pubescent boys as part of their rite of passage? [/b]

I'm not taking liberties with the passage, Romans 2:11-16 states
11For God does not show favoritism. 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Is god really so biased as to allow certain cultures to go against his word and still permit them into heaven, since they were raised to believe otherwise?[/b]

If that were the case there would be no need for preaching and missionary work at all. In those times and locations where the gospel was unavailable, their sense of right and wrong and nature itself provided testimony of a higher power. God's judgement will determine the outcome, 1 John 3:20 ...For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

Originally posted by Genjyo

That's a very liberal interpretation...What about tribal warriors of New Guinea that engage in homo-erotic behavior with pubescent boys as part of their rite of passage?

I'm not taking liberties with the passage, Romans 2:11-16 states
11For God does not show favoritism. 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
So in essence, you're saying that one man's sin is another man's virtue in god's eyes?

Is god really so biased as to allow certain cultures to go against his word and still permit them into heaven, since they were raised to believe otherwise?[/b]

If that were the case there would be no need for preaching and missionary work at all. In those times and locations where the gospel was unavailable, their sense of right and wrong and nature itself provided testimony of a higher power.[/b]

I'm sort of confused here...you state that god will judge those outside of christianity based on their hearts and conscience. And I asked, why do christians strive in sending missionaries abroad if this is true.

God's judgement will determine the outcome, 1 John 3:20 ...For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.[/b]

It's easy to say/think that god will just sort this mess out in the end. But the whole concept of a world full of civilizations that have never known the Christian god is just illogical...this of course assuming that an all powerful "Christian" god created everything.

It would appear that god didn't do an adequate job in planning out his design.

Lord is GOD

Originally posted by InTheMoment
I'm sort of confused here...you state that god will judge those outside of christianity based on their hearts and conscience. And I asked, why do christians strive in sending missionaries abroad if this is true.

It's easy to say/think that god will just sort this mess out in the end. But the whole concept of a world full of civilizations that have never known the Christian god is just illogical...this of course assuming that an all powerful "Christian" god created everything.

It would appear that god didn't do an adequate job in planning out his design.

Well, first let's establish what kind of judge God really is.
Job 34:12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice.
Gen 18:25 "Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?"
God judges with truth and without error unlike a human. Nature points to the Creator. Psalms 19: 1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.
Everyone is without excuse really, the conscience informs us of our fallings. The key is not suppressing the evident truths.
So why the missionary work?
Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent?
The reason is to share the message of salvation and personal relationship with the Saviour.

Hey Orange County, that's not very kind to be posting the same message in different threads. You can always contribute to the conversations, but at least make it relevant.

I don't even know if you are a christian.

Yes there is free will in "heaven".

From the original post I gather this question however is aimed at those with a lack of understanding. I guess so inthemoment can pick fun of them.

I'd say theres free will in heaven...but i dont think heaven someplace WE are going.

Hopefully when your dead, your dead...but i guess i wont find out until i'm dead. Horrible cycle huh?

Originally posted by Boris
Yes there is free will in "heaven".

From the original post I gather this question however is aimed at those with a lack of understanding. I guess so inthemoment can pick fun of them.

Well how about elaborating on your choice...or are you afraid I'll pick on you?

Originally posted by Genjyo
The reason is to share the message of salvation and personal relationship with the Saviour.

But when a missionary enters a land/culture that is unfamiliar with Christianity, then those residents have to choose whether or not too believe what the missionaries are preaching or stick with what they've always known.

Inevitably, you're going to have some of those people convert to Christianity, which in turn divides the community. Also, if missionaries enter a village (for example) and administer "their" word as truth, what happens to those villagers that hear the message yet reject it in favor of their own belief system?

Originally posted by InTheMoment

But when a missionary enters a land/culture that is unfamiliar with Christianity, then those residents have to choose whether or not too believe what the missionaries are preaching or stick with what they've always known.

Inevitably, you're going to have some of those people convert to Christianity, which in turn divides the community. Also, if missionaries enter a village (for example) and administer "their" word as truth, what happens to those villagers that hear the message yet reject it in favor of their own belief system?

Sometimes that is the effect, families may get divided. After all, same thing happened with Jesus, some of his brothers and sisters rejected him until after the resurrection. The driving factor is not bringing opposition to the current belief systems, but bringing truth into the lives of many and not just automatically accepting it. The christian faith is not to be accepted blindly, but rather examined and tested against other worldviews.

1 Thes 5:21 Test everything. Hold on to that which is good.

Originally posted by Genjyo

Sometimes that is the effect, families may get divided. After all, same thing happened with Jesus, some of his brothers and sisters rejected him until after the resurrection. The driving factor is not bringing opposition to the current belief systems, but bringing truth into the lives of many and not just automatically accepting it. The christian faith is not to be accepted blindly, but rather examined and tested against other worldviews.

1 Thes 5:21 Test everything. Hold on to that which is good.

But why would these people need "truth," if their lifestyle is being judged subjectively by god?

Basically, what I'm saying is...if something isn't broke, then why the need to fix it?

Originally posted by InTheMoment

But why would these people need "truth," if their lifestyle is being judged subjectively by god?

Basically, what I'm saying is...if something isn't broke, then why the need to fix it?

Because it provides the answers to their questions, questions their answers, provides analytical examination of their beliefs as well as for this "new"faith, and most importantly, the opportunity to know and serve God.

Originally posted by Genjyo

Because it provides the answers to their questions, questions their answers, provides analytical examination of their beliefs as well as for this "new"faith, and most importantly, the opportunity to know and serve God.

Ok, let give me you a specific example. Let's say their is a village in India and the entire village are devout Hinduist. How would it benefit them to have Christian missionaries come into their lives and prostelyze?

There are plenty of other religions that answer the questions of life and the universe. And by your own admission have stated that those that don't believe "wholly" in the Christian god, will be judged in a subjective manner...based on their individual merit. So I ask again, why is it necessary for Christians to send missionaries abroad to administer "their" word?

Originally posted by InTheMoment

Ok, let give me you a specific example. Let's say their is a village in India and the entire village are devout Hinduist. How would it benefit them to have Christian missionaries come into their lives and prostelyze?

There are plenty of other religions that answer the questions of life and the universe. And by your own admission have stated that those that don't believe "wholly" in the Christian god, will be judged in a subjective manner...based on their individual merit. So I ask again, why is it necessary for Christians to send missionaries abroad to administer "their" word?

There is a stark difference between Hinduism and Christianity. Hinduism engages in cycles of rebirths that will eventually lead into being absorbed into God or the ultimate reality. It may benefit the people in knowing that there is a personal God who in interested in them. It may also be helpful in sharing what modern cosmology reveals about the universe having a beginning versus a reincarnating state. Other worldviews have their answers I'm sure, but this wouldn't invalidate an invitation.