Thread: Faith Morality, It's In Your Head

Originally Posted by folded

Hey Howietzer, what does a label get you? What are you looking for the label to do for you?[/b]

Very good question.
I do not want a label! In fact I am against it.
I think labels set boundaries and cause apartheid and prejudice and ignorance. It feeds our ego.

So you must really wonder now.


Similar to politics there is a process to navigate and correspond with others ideals, theories and logic.
People (most) only deal in this language.
So if you were to pasture with hundreds of cattle, it would be much easier to talk their language To know what MOOOOOOOOO means.

Does that make any sense?

It is an interesting topic, although I am not sure if you care to read most of it. Who should I vote for?
This is a good example behind my reasoning.

So then, what do you want with religion? Are you looking for something to believe in? Or are you formulating a way to view the world?

Originally Posted by folded

So then, what do you want with religion? Are you looking for something to believe in? Or are you formulating a way to view the world?[/b]

Close.
Thanks again for a reply.

Or are you formulating a way to view the world?[/b]

I am trying to formulate a way to live in a the world with religion?

Howeitzer, I am a little confused.

Are you religious, do you feel religious? Are you trying to reconcile your religion with your life?

Or are you trying to reconcile others' religion in your life?

Originally Posted by folded

Howeitzer, I am a little confused.
Are you religious, do you feel religious? Are you trying to reconcile your religion with your life?
Or are you trying to reconcile others' religion in your life?[/b]

Sorry to come across so confusing.
I am not a religious person.
I do have a very high set of moral standards that I have set for my self. I never needed a religious teaching for that to come to me naturally.
I do not like to talk down towards religion or religious people.

When it comes down to a deeper discussion, as we have going on now, it is difficult to come across unabated. It is hard to address my feelings with out demeaning some one else's.
So I have my own view of religion that I do not try to push on any one, but I am always honest when asked.

So I am not trying to reconcile, for I am comfortable with how I feel. I don't want to change any one's religion if they are happy. BUT! I do wish that people saw religion in the same light as I do. Which I think is natural.

What do you feel about, well;
Faith Morality, It's In Your Head, a placebo of sorts.

Hi Howie,

Well, faith and morality are, of course, "all in your head." They cannot be anywhere else.

A placebo? Hmm. If you mean "something that makes you feel better, even though it is not actually effective medicine", then yes I would have to agree with that, generally. But I have my exceptions to the agreement.

First off, faith and morality are not the same thing. Morals are a set of principles that govern behavior in a society, even if they are not quite laws. They are a consensus of sorts. In many cases, they are religion-derived. But, many people can agree that killing a person is bad, even if they are not religious at all.

Faith is belief. Faith itself is usually required by religion. But, beliefs can also be non-religious in nature. For instance, I have never been to a star. I am told that those points of light in the sky are far-away stars, each a huge nuclear inferno, with other planets circling them. But, do I know this? Not directly, no I do not. I only know what I have been taught. I have faith that it is correct, and that my education was good, and that there really are stars out there above my head.

But, yes, I think that faith and belief are a way for people to "fill in the gaps" in their knowledge. Especially about the important things like where we came from and what happens to our consciousness when we die. Death is important. Most people do not like the idea of their conscious lives disintegrating, and many wish to think that there is a nice place to go after this... or at least more to do than just die.

Even your typical atheist would have beliefs about such things, like: the big bang made the universe, we are a product of evolution, and when we die our consciousness dies with our bodies. The atheist's point of view may have been informed by what science he knows. But, he is only going on the faith that the science is right. Unless he is an cosmologist or a medical doctor, he would have no direct experience of the knowledge. And even a cosmologist or MD has no direct experience of the big bang or death; we all take our existence on faith.

Originally Posted by folded

Morals are a set of principles that govern behavior in a society, even if they are not quite laws. They are a consensus of sorts. In many cases, they are religion-derived.[/b]

Why not the other way around? Peopel have morals, people created religion, therefore morals are found in religion.

Originally Posted by folded

Faith is belief. Faith itself is usually required by religion. But, beliefs can also be non-religious in nature.
...we all take our existence on faith.[/b]

Faith is belief despite evidence to the contrary. Therefore belief in science is not faith.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Why not the other way around? Peopel have morals, people created religion, therefore morals are found in religion.

...AND...

Faith is belief despite evidence to the contrary. Therefore belief in science is not faith.[/b]

Another swimmer in the pool!

Yeah, I'll agree that morals could have developed that way. But, right now here in the US, the general sense of morals seems to be religion derived. Seems to be. Do you know of a current society that has morals not religion based?

many dictionaries have slightly different definitions of faith. This one is from Dictionary.com. Definition #2 jives with what you wrote.

faith (f?th) Pronunciation Key
n.
- Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
- Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
- Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
- often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
- The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
- A set of principles or beliefs.[/b]

However, I think that if you are a lay person, belief in science is belief no matter how you slice it, unless you are a scientist studying your chosen subject. I have faith -- I believe -- that quantum physics underlies the structure of everything I see. But, I don't have direct experience of it. I don't understand the math, and I wouldn't know what to make of an article about it in the Physical Review. I would have to trust that what I read about it in Scientific American is correct.

And, science is only correct until someone else comes along to refute prior findings with ample evidence. Especially when it comes to the esoteric stuff, it's remarkably unstable to rest a world view on. Pluto's not a planet! Not only do chocolate and red wine taste great, but they're good for you! People and some birds share a very specific gene, all it does is help immitate sounds! (Stay tuned, next month a new set of findings refutes everything....

Originally Posted by folded

And, science is only correct until someone else comes along to refute prior findings with ample evidence. Especially when it comes to the esoteric stuff, it's remarkably unstable to rest a world view on. Pluto's not a planet! Not only do chocolate and red wine taste great, but they're good for you! People and some birds share a very specific gene, all it does is help immitate sounds! (Stay tuned, next month a new set of findings refutes everything.... [/b]

The quest for truth.

• The truth is out there. There is only one truth.

• You can disbelieve in an ancient doctrine to find your truths or you can develop and question truth with science to gain your truths.

One is stagnant but steadfast, while the other unsteady and ever changing, evolving with knowledge.

So Pluto may no more be a planet through whomever's standard and means of knowledge, so to may we find that there is no god through the same process.
Religion is afraid of facts that could unfold or account for a fable in a belief system.

Originally Posted by folded

Do you know of a current society that has morals not religion based?[/b]

Sub-groups within our society; for example, atheists. Because of the prevalence of religion, I don't know if there is a totally religion-free society that we could use as an example. But I'm also not sure what qualifies as a religion; I think people have said that buddhism is not a religion; maybe wherever it is practiced? I don't know about that.

Originally Posted by folded

However, I think that if you are a lay person, belief in science is belief no matter how you slice it, unless you are a scientist studying your chosen subject. I have faith -- I believe -- that quantum physics underlies the structure of everything I see. But, I don't have direct experience of it. I don't understand the math, and I wouldn't know what to make of an article about it in the Physical Review. I would have to trust that what I read about it in Scientific American is correct.[/b]

You don't have to be an expert in every field to believe that science is closer to the truth than things people just make up (i.e. religion). It helps to have some knowledge of science and the scientific process; it helps if you are somewhat familiar with at least one area; but I think that the millions of people involved in peer-reviewed, reproducible scientific discovery are putting out something a little more worthy of 'believing as truth than some 1000 year old rambling nonsense. That seems obvious. Mistakes and lies that occur in science are exposed, sooner or later. And why would you have "faith" in quantum mechanics? You must have read something about it and realized that the theories presented, altho possibly simplified, were based on logical assumptions, with evidence provided and experiments described; you may have known that the author was well-respected in the field and therefore probably just not making it up as he went along; etc. I wouldn't call believing in quantum mechanics "faith" when there is ample evidence.

Originally Posted by folded

And, science is only correct until someone else comes along to refute prior findings with ample evidence. Especially when it comes to the esoteric stuff, it's remarkably unstable to rest a world view on. Pluto's not a planet! Not only do chocolate and red wine taste great, but they're good for you! People and some birds share a very specific gene, all it does is help immitate sounds! (Stay tuned, next month a new set of findings refutes everything.... [/b]

I don't think those examples "refute everything". Of course there's controversy and conflicting evidence; that doesn't change the fact that people really have discovered a lot of scientific truths. The press makes a lot more out of these kind of examples than they are really worth usually, just to get a news story. Especially with health stuff. Don't believe everything you read in the newspaper. But you can probably believe most of a basic physics or chemistry or biology text-book, right? That's not faith.

And red wine and chocolate are really good for you; nothing will ever change that. Nothing!

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

...You don't have to be an expert in every field to believe that science is closer to the truth than things people just make up (i.e. religion). It helps to have some knowledge of science and the scientific process....[/b]

Well, exactly the point I am trying to make is that for non-scientists not schooled in science, it is just as mystery laden as anything else. How science changes and keeps updated is beyond some people's understanding.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

I wouldn't call believing in quantum mechanics "faith" when there is ample evidence.[/b]

Well, I wouldn't say that I "believe in" quantum mechanics, per se. I would say that I do believe that it underlies the processes of the physical universe, however. And, even though I am trained in some science, athough it has been years..., at this point I just believe it. I don't know it. I know that experiments and thought continue, and that the science develops. I have faith that development in the science is happening. But, I am no closer to being able to understand anything deep about it at all.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

I don't think those examples "refute everything". Of course there's controversy and conflicting evidence; that doesn't change the fact that people really have discovered a lot of scientific truths. The press makes a lot more out of these kind of examples than they are really worth usually, just to get a news story. Especially with health stuff. Don't believe everything you read in the newspaper. But you can probably believe most of a basic physics or chemistry or biology text-book, right? That's not faith.

And red wine and chocolate are really good for you; nothing will ever change that. Nothing![/b]

That closing line was meant as a joke. Of course those examples don't refute anything -- they were not meant to. But, don't you see the thing here? To a scientific ignorant (I don't mean that as an insult), like someone in the countryside of India who never attended school, what would they make of science? To them, it is just as much of a leap of faith as believing in Shiva.

Originally Posted by folded

But, don't you see the thing here? To a scientific ignorant (I don't mean that as an insult), like someone in the countryside of India who never attended school, what would they make of science? To them, it is just as much of a leap of faith as believing in Shiva.[/b]

I guess I misinterpreted what you were saying a little bit. I get your point, but a person could always be told about science that with education, they could come to understand. It might help to point out that altho there may be differences in opinion over some of the details, scientists have come up with a basic agreement of underlying principles, while religions are always going to contradict each other.

And I think that would be one of the major differences. You're right, religion is always going to be filled with contradiction while something reason or science based would tend to move toward agreement of principle.

Joseph Campbell once said that the world is moving too fast (due to science and change) to base a solid, usefull, spiritual mythology on anything. And it will be a long time until it happens. I wonder how long it might be?

Originally Posted by folded

I wonder how long it might be?[/b]

Long time I bet.

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him. - Voltaire

Originally Posted by Universal

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him. - Voltaire[/b]

So everything that is made, thought of or invented already exists?

Originally Posted by Howie

So everything that is made, thought of or invented already exists?[/b]

I came across that quote in the movie Easy Rider. I always took it to mean that God is an invention of the human mind and that the quote was meant to illustrate that by pointing out the necessity of man's believing in such a thing. But when I looked for the quote on the internet yesterday, I saw where a lot of people argue that Voltaire was saying that God exists but there are major social needs for common belief in him even beyond the supposed fact that he does. I'm not sure which is right. One way or the other, it sounds to me like something that diminishes the credibility of theism, whether that was intended or not.

The purpose of morality; most quite often; with the analytical mind would say "Breeds order." Fine we can go with that. Morality in lies morals. What you may find morally correct or pc may not be to another. Isn't that great. Seriously. I am quite fond of different views and different lifestyles. Christianity with all religions is the base. With that said - educating oneself on all types would help you define your own morality. Maybe define your outlook through faith (which you can't touch or see) and is a powerful force. I think that through faith you can find your morality. Set a clear path with your choices and have a bases to build upon your justification for living. In turn you develop a sense of self and define you own morals. When you can clearly see what you define as morally correct for yourself; then you can morally define your path. Then apparently you have zen in the fact that you know yourself. You live within your moral circle. If your faith is strong than your beliefs never waiver and your individual morals are intact. Whatever christian base religion or fudamentalist belief you chose to believe in.

Originally Posted by oleander

The purpose of morality; most quite often; with the analytical mind would say "Breeds order." Fine we can go with that. Morality in lies morals. What you may find morally correct or pc may not be to another. Isn't that great. Seriously. I am quite fond of different views and different lifestyles. Christianity with all religions is the base. With that said - educating oneself on all types would help you define your own morality. Maybe define your outlook through faith (which you can't touch or see) and is a powerful force. I think that through faith you can find your morality. Set a clear path with your choices and have a bases to build upon your justification for living. In turn you develop a sense of self and define you own morals. When you can clearly see what you define as morally correct for yourself; then you can morally define your path. Then apparently you have zen in the fact that you know yourself. You live within your moral circle. If your faith is strong than your beliefs never waiver and your individual morals are intact. Whatever christian base religion or fudamentalist belief you chose to believe in.

Originally Posted by oleander

The purpose of morality; most quite often; with the analytical mind would say "Breeds order." Fine we can go with that. Morality in lies morals. What you may find morally correct or pc may not be to another. Isn't that great. Seriously. I am quite fond of different views and different lifestyles. Christianity with all religions is the base. With that said - educating oneself on all types would help you define your own morality. Maybe define your outlook through faith (which you can't touch or see) and is a powerful force. I think that through faith you can find your morality. Set a clear path with your choices and have a bases to build upon your justification for living. In turn you develop a sense of self and define you own morals. When you can clearly see what you define as morally correct for yourself; then you can morally define your path. Then apparently you have zen in the fact that you know yourself. You live within your moral circle. If your faith is strong than your beliefs never waiver and your individual morals are intact. Whatever christian base religion or fudamentalist belief you chose to believe in.

Is english a second language to you? This post reminds me of some of the stuff you get when you try to talk to a chatbot. Are you a bot? I understood very little of this post.

I will make this easy for you - What you believe is morally correct or what kind of morals you live by; makes it easier for someone to define themself. You hold yourself up to those morals. Morality in society helps breed order. I feel alot of people would easily understand what I have written. Most have a set code of morals for oneself. It helps a person define who they are. Morals are the bases for conduct. So with that said - what you may find morally correct; others may not. I can give you an example for instance - Adultry which is a christian based sin is considered not morally correct. To others adultry is not a sin and is acceptable to look for bigger and better. Either way - you define a set of morals for yourself - this helps an individual find comfort in their decisions. For the record - english is my first language. Second of all - thier is really no need to attack. Lastly, I can keep it simple. Morals defines your character. Religion was the bases for morals. Morals breeds order in society in short. Morals defines your decisions, your judgements, and your path in life.