Thread: The founding fathers were NOT Christian, and America is not based on Christian principles.

Wow, very interesting.

Thanks.

I read an article like this a long time ago and I agree 100% that the U.S. was NOT based on Christianity.

I used to go to a group that called themselves "Discipleship" where various holier-than-thou high school students "learned" about Christianity (although it seemed quite like a weird Christian anti-Catholic cult because everyone there listened and quietly agreed with the one leader). I wish that I had seen this earlier so that I could show it to them since they deemed a lot of what is going on in the United States as "wrong" because they believed that the U.S. was based on Christian morals. I just want to shove this in their faces now!

You don't need to be a Christian to agree with some of the morals. But still interesting to know. Don't matter if it wasn't based on it at first, but at some point it happened.... Know anything about Canada? :p

Originally Posted by homer2020

You don't need to be a Christian to agree with some of the morals. But still interesting to know. Don't matter if it wasn't based on it at first, but at some point it happened....

Yes, some of the "morals" aren't exclusively Christian but that doesn't matter.

And it DID NOT just "happen". Stupid Christians think it happened, but it didn't.

Originally Posted by homer2020

You don't need to be a Christian to agree with some of the morals. But still interesting to know. Don't matter if it wasn't based on it at first, but at some point it happened.... Know anything about Canada? :p

Yeah, Christians gained ground in the politics, which the Bible tells them not to do... And the nation isn't founded on it, which means it shouldn't evolve into exclusively that.

Its funny too how quickly people forget these sorts of things. "Under God" wasn't in the pledge of allegiance until 1954 but the way people argue over it today you would think its been there since we declared independence.

While this is true, I must say that not all right-wingers are bible hugging gay-bashers, and they're just not educated on such a thing. They find it to be moral anyhow, so even when they learn, they still think that the founding fathers supported the morals from the bible. You can't really argue with someone as stubborn as many of the right-wingers, but their intentions are pure enough. Saying under god in the pledge is just simply yet another line that has no meaning that would only piss people off to try to drop, so you may as well just leave something as harmless as that in. As long as you have the information and the ability to debate with someone, it's not much of an issue. Religion should have nothing to do with politics. While it may have made a great moral influence in the world, it's not relative to politics anymore, as we know our morals and we don't need an old book filled with stories to keep us filled in. To sum this up, I will also state that the Bible doesn't state the fundamentals of morals and it along with all its technicalities shouldn't have nearly as much as it has to do with politics and morals today. Stable parents should be teaching morals, not a dramatized book.

Sorry for the big post, I tend to rant a bit when it comes to such things.

America used to be a pretty awesome place. It's really quite a bizarre phenomenon, the shift that it's undergone of late. There doesn't seem to be a single Republican, for instance, who isn't a fanatic Christian (paranoid, insular, evolution-denying, etc.). Republicans are supposed to stand for freedom, yet I've never heard any one of them speak movingly on this issue. In fact they seem to stand for the exact opposite... they stand for close-mindedness, xenophobia, authoritarianism, religious overzealousness; they all seem to be nutcases. How did this happen?

THANK YOU for this thread. And thank you to whoever resurrected it. Very important stuff!!!

Originally Posted by Xei

America used to be a pretty awesome place. It's really quite a bizarre phenomenon, the shift that it's undergone of late. There doesn't seem to be a single Republican, for instance, who isn't a fanatic Christian (paranoid, insular, evolution-denying, etc.). Republicans are supposed to stand for freedom, yet I've never heard any one of them speak movingly on this issue. In fact they seem to stand for the exact opposite... they stand for close-mindedness, xenophobia, authoritarianism, religious overzealousness; they all seem to be nutcases. How did this happen?

One Candidate: Gary Johnson. Pro-choice, pro-pot, pro-gay marriage, anti-war, pro-liberty, and fiscally conservative (which goes along with liberty and small government.) He's a hero of mine, but no one knows about him (media blackout). If he's not given attention, he won't garner support other than word of mouth (which doesn't work as well when Iowa and NH, the "deciders" are bombarded with a billion political ads and speeches and pandering for 12 months straight.)

Hey, you forgot about Thomas Paine.

"The universe is the bible of a true Theophilanthropist. It is there that he reads of God. It is there that the proofs of his existence are to be sought and to be found. As to written or printed books, by whatever name they are called, they are the works of man's hands, and carry no evidence in themselves that God is the author of any of them. It must be in something that man could not make, that we must seek evidence for our belief, and that something is the universe; the true bible; the inimitable word, of God."

"That which is now called natural philosophy, embracing the whole circle of science, of which astronomy occupies the chief place, is the study of the works of God, and of the power and wisdom of God in his works, and is the true theology."

Don't forget about the part where everyone was cool with slavery.

You know what those guys did believe in? Slavery. So no matter what they believed or didn't believe in...it's still a bunch of garbage. And yes, anyone who doesn't speak up on a certain thing and lets it pass, is still a supporter. And with that said, they've never garnered my respect, and they never will regardless of who want's to try to paint them into or out of religious people.

EDIT:

Damnit invader....you beat me to the punch...but yeah...I understand you completely. It's funny that people are trying to rework the history of what people believed in, but everyone forgets slavery.

Getting off-topic guys. This is R/S and the subject is that America was not founded on Christian principles, which is something I'm tired of getting beat over the head with by every Republican.

You're actually pointing out one way in which America has improved by going against Christian principles, since slavery was supported in the bible.

Thanks for posting. I'm very interested in the origins of America and the role of faith in the development of nations. I do propose that John Adams himself declared that Rev.Dr.Jonathan Mayhew and the Rev.Dr.Samual Cooper were two of the individuals "most conspicuous, the most ardent, and influential" in the "awakening and revival of American principles and feelings" that led to our independence. Other ministers whose influence and leadership were also important included the Rev. George Whitefield, the Rev. James Caldwell, the Rev. John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg and his brother the Rev Fredrick Augustus Muhlenberg, and many more. These people were instrumental in rallying the american people around the ideas of liberty and independence that America embraced. While modern interpretations have gone askew, the original message of Christianity was one of tolerance, openness, liberty, and the pursuit of common good for all men and women. You could take my word for it but I suggest you look into the exploits of many of these ministers which are recorded in older historical works including The Pulpit of the American Revolution, The Patriot Preachers of the American Revolution, and The Chaplains and Clergy of the Revolution.

So why could John Adams say that pastors in particular (and Christians in general) were so influential in our move for independence? It was because the work of pastors in shaping the thinking (i.e., the worldview) of the nation, and because of the work of Christians in founding our government. A great example of this is when you consider the influence of Christian thinkers such as John Locke. While you can't say that all founding fathers were Christian, declaration signers such as John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Rush, and many others sang the praises of John Lock; and John Quincy Adams declared that: "The Declaration of Independence [was]...founded upon one and the same theory of government... expounded in the writings of Lock." Not only was John Lock considered a theologean by previous generations, but he even wrote a verse-by-verse commentary of Paul's Epistles and complied a topical Bible, which he called a Common Place-Book to the Holy Bible, that listed the verses in the Bible, subject by subject. When anti-religious enlightenment thinkers attacked Christianity, Locke defended it in his book, The Reasonable-ness of Christianity as Delivered in the Scriptures. And then when he was attacked for defending Christianity in that first work, he responded with the work, A Vindication of the Reasonableness of Christianity. Still being attacked, two years later he wrote A Second Vindication of the Reasonableness of Christianity. No wonder he was considered a theologian by his peers and by subsequent generations!

However, the writing of John Locke that most influenced the Founder's philosophy in the Declaration of Independence was his Two Treatises of Government. In fact, signer of the Declaration Richard Henry Lee declared that the Declaration itself was "copied from Locke's Treatise on Government."

Apart from all this, political scientists have recently embarked on an ambitions ten-year project to analyze some 15,000 writings from the Founding Era. Those writings were examined with the goal of isolating and identifying the specific political sources quoted during the time surrounding the establishment of American government. Why this is interesting to me is if the sources of the quotes could be identified, then the origin of the Founder's political ideas could be determined. From the 15,000 writings selected, the researchers isolated some 3,154 quotations and then documented the original sources of those quotations. The research revealed that the single most cited authority in the writings of the Founding Era was the Bible: 34 percent of the documented quotes were taken from the bible - a percentage almost four times higher than the second most quoted source.

In fact, signers of the Constitution George Washing and Alexander Hamilton acknowledge that the principle undergirding the seperation of powers was the same principle found in Jeremiah 17:9. Many other verses and principles found embodiment in the constitution. For example, compare Art. 1 Sec. 8 provision on uniform immigration laws with Leviticus 19:34; compare the Art.II Sec. 1 provision that a president must be a natural born citizen with Deuteronomy 17:15, the Art. III Sec. 3 provision regarding witnesses and capital punishment with Dueteronomy 17:6 and the Art III Sec 3 provision against attainder with Ezekiel 18:20.. Notice that Isaiah 33:22 defines the three branches of government and Ezra 7:24 establishes the type of tax exemptions the Founders gave to our churches that still exist today. This can go on forever.

Since so many of the ideas that found application in our government were taken from the Bible, it is not surprising that John Adams had identified Christian ministers as being so influential in american independence. Nearly four decades after the American Revolution he reaffirmed his position, declaring:

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were... the general principles of Christianity.... Now I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

So while many focus on the several least religions of the founders, many forget about Samuel Huntington, Robert Livingston, George Clinton, Robert Morris, Stephen Hopkins, Richard Henry Lee, George Read, Roger Sherman, Elbridge Gerry and other Christian signers of the declaration of independence. And while people like Franklin and Jefferson were the "least religious" founders, least is a comparative term and even they would be much more religions than most "religions" individuals today. For instance, Benjamin Franklin not only drafted a statewide prayer proclamation for his own state of Pennsylvania, but he also recommended Christianity in the State's public schools and worked to raise church attendence in the state. He also desired to start a colony in Ohio with the Rev. George Whitefield to "facilitate the introduction of pure religion among the heathen" in order to show the Indians "a better sample of Christians than they commonly see in our Indian traders." He enthused "In such an enterprise I could spend the remainder of life with pleasure, and I firmly believe God would bless us with success." Franklin also made one of the nation's most forceful defenses of religion when it was attacked by Thomas Paine, author of Age or Reason. And it was Franklin - citing numerous bible verses to prove his point - who called for the establishment of chaplains and daily prayer at the Constitutional Convention. These are the documented ACTIONS of one of the "least religions Founding Fathers".

My personal favorite is Thomas Jefferson. Not only did he recommend that the Great Seal of the United States depict a Bible story and include the word "God" in the national motto but President Jefferson also negotiated a federal treaty with the Kaskakia Indians in which he included direct federal funding to pay for Christian ministers to work with the Indians and the building of a church in which the Indians could worship --and this treaty was ratified by the US Senate! Furthermore, Jefferson closed all presidential documents with the appellation "In the year of the Lord Christ," which seems insignificant but marks the invoking of Jesus Christ into official government documents. This is Thomas Jefferson, the other "least religious" Founder! Most Americans really don't know that much even about the founders they think they know best.. but if I were to go on talking about all the other founders we'd be here for hours.

So in conclusion, while you offer some interesting quotes to support your stance, the official actions and words of founding fathers paint a vastly different tale. I'm by no means a theologian, or even a historian, just an American who loves to read and research. I welcome your views. Btw, "slavery" in the bible is nothing like what we imagine today.. it was primarily a 7 year jewish tradition for the repayment of debts and "slaves" were often treated so well that they chose to become members of the households for life even after being offered freedom, which is where we get the word and concept of "bond-servant" today.