Questioning Eternal Hell

[Dannon Oneironaut]

The dogma of eternal hell is that some god tortures you every day forever and ever with no hope of ever escaping this judgment, no chance to repent and be free, no chance to atonement for the torture with any kind of remedial task, and no chance to even have the pain even lessen some, and that each moment is as painful as being burned alive without the relief of even being able to die and ceasing to exist. Even further, the teaching is that every day you know that the judgment of god is just and that you deserve this horrible and cruel eternal fate. As such it is even worse than Prometheus, who knew he did good, and, even though tormented for aeons, he saw his eventual vindication and release from sorrow with his ability to see into the future... What I see now that Christianity is a little insane because it tries to hold a contradiction between "God is Love" and "God throws people into Hell forever, tormenting them every day." It is a confusion between love and violence that inspires the abusive treatment of children in the name of punishing them and disciplining them for their own good or torturing Native Americans until they accept Jesus Christ as personal lord and savior and then burning them to death before they can change their mind (thereby saving them from eternal damnation, strangely logical deduction about what to do with nonbelievers given the initial insane belief, any torture to convert someone is justified and better than leaving them as nonbelievers in the hands of an angry, primitive, unforgiving, violent, and righteous god, the insane logical deduction being further proof of how much of a contradiction there is between unconditional divine love and highly conditional eternal damnation). I further do not believe that the dogma of eternal hell was part of the original teaching of Jesus, do not believe that the dogma of eternal hell is even really very biblical, and I further do not believe that the idea is conducive to human sanity. I later came to understand that the idea is even demonic and that Christianity has a demon infecting its thinking and will always have a demon infecting its thinking until it releases all allegiance to this idea. The dogma of eternal damnation reduces Christianity down to an evil brainwashing cult more extreme than any other evil cult in the history of religion. It is behind every war lead in the name of Christ, even justifying Christians killing Christians. It is the reason why Christianity as a whole had the bloodiest track record of any religion in known history. It has justified the torture of countless pagan and even heretical Christians relative whatever the prevailing dogmas were. Every other rotten dogma that Christians have ever believed has been fueled and supported by this one dogma. For instance, Christians have been intolerant of all "nonbelievers" whether they believe in god, many gods, or no gods. They are all lumped together and given the same judgment. Why? Because Christians believe that god did the same thing and threw all nonbelievers into eternal hell forever and further that THEY DESERVED IT. If they believe that nonbelievers SHOULD BE TORTURED FOREVER rejecting Jesus Christ as personal lord and savior, then it justifies treating all nonbelievers very badly, mocking and poking fun at their beliefs, attributing the worse motives to their behaviors (they have to be so bad in truth that they deserve to be tortured forever every single day but having their burned alive without the respite of death). Think about what this means since human judges may give only three consecutive life sentences to a serial sociopathic psychopathic killer or just kill them as punishment for what they have done. They do not torture these killers and even then not forever and ever. There is a sense of just proportion to human justice, that the punishment must fit the crime. But infinite torture for a finite amount of crimes can NEVER be proportionate. Further, the argument that it is "god's mysterious will" does not work, because there is NO CHANGE IN OUTCOME from the torture. It might be strangely justified if it lead to a person having a change of heart, like a person who is more loving to everyone after seeing the cruelties of war. But the people tortured in hell never have a chance to ever change their heart and leave to a better place. A mysterious will operating at a higher wisdom than ours only makes sense if it leads to something good, but eternal hell does not lead to anything good at all. It is not like a criminal who is sentenced, pays his or her dues, has remorse for what he or she did, and learns to be a good citizen. In other words, the dogma of eternal damnation leaves no chance of ever explaining how Divine Love could do this to anyone. What makes an evil religious cult is a strong distinction between the "in group" and the "out group", with a hostility towards the outgroup (all those who do not belong to the group). In the psychological and sociological studies of extreme cults (many of them believing in eternal damnation for nonbelievers and many of them justifying intense treatment of nonbelievers through this dogma, both as a motivator to convert them so that they can avoid the cruel fate and as a fear tactic to scare them into joining), the strong distinction and the hostility towards the out group is key in their formation. The dogma of eternal damnation, by its very definition, is the most extreme distinction you can make between in group (believer) and out group (nonbeliever) with one going to eternal blissful heaven while the other goes into eternal endless torment. It also has the god behind the dogma modelling extreme hatred of the outgroup (torturing them forever for rejecting his son). The punishment of eternal damnation is given in "righteous wrath". From a hypnotherapy view, the power of ideas, when believed, leads to emotional states. There is no good state that can come from believing this idea. It makes the in group (believers) intolerant. The very idea is the most intolerant idea possible. Nonbelievers are not tolerated at all. They are not merely left alone. They are not even merely wiped out and killed. They are tortured forever because of how bad they are. Because of this, any ideological inter-religious dialogue cannot truly be based on "mutual respect". You cannot really respect someone if you feel that they are so bad that they should be tortured forever, while you are destined by the mere fact of believing the right teaching to go to eternal blissful heaven. If we consider Christianity barbaric for having justified slavery, treated women as inferiors to men, and stoning homosexuals for merely having an alternative sexual orientation, then all of these criticisms pale in comparison to torturing people forever merely because they disbelieve. I am mentioning all this because the constant bombardment of the dogma of eternal hell, from it the preachers who preached it, all the churches that have believed it and still believe it, from all the forums that have discussed it, and from all the books that presuppose it, has desensitized people to how cruel, evil, and barbaric the idea really is. The dogma of eternal damnation, more than any idea, is the exact opposite of Unconditional Universal Divine Love (which I feel is at the very heart of everything that Jesus taught). I would go further to ask why Christians have not been bothered by this dogma. Why has this contradiction not been fully seen? Why has this contradiction not been jettisoned completely from a religion that supposed to believe in love, forgiveness, nonjudgment, and grace? How different is this dogma to Jesus teaching people to turn the other cheek, bless those who curse them, pray for those who persecute them, resist not evil, forgive people again and again, and love your enemies. Jesus uses the metaphor of the rain which pours on everyone equally and the sun which shines on everyone equally. Then he wants us to be merciful as his god is merciful. In other words, we are meant to forgive underconditionally because that is what god aka love does. There is no need for atonement for sins. Imagine that someone wrong me and comes to ask me for forgiveness and I say, "Wait, before I accept your forgiveness, I must vent all the wrath that you deserve on to my cat, have it squirm in pain, die nailed to a board, and then resurrected from the grave." You then see me severely torture the cat with what I feel you deserve. You would wonder how sane I was. The funny thing is that even what Jesus gets from god in the atonement story is less than what a single nonbeliever gets in hell. No matter how horrible was the wrath that the scape goat of god got, he could at least die and become free from the pain. The poor nonbeliever gets to be tormented with extreme agony forever with each day really being more than he or she could bear. It is curious that fire is used as a symbol for the extreme torture, because the sheer pain of being burned alive is so painful that many burn victims die because the pain is too much for them (but at least they can die). I could come from a few other sides about the dogma of eternal hell, but my hope that it is not necessary, that calling this false and vicious idea for what it really is will be enough. But just to summarize the main points: 1. that the idea is a logical and psychological contradition to Unconditional Love 2. that it confuses love and violence and therefore justifies all kinds of cruelty that plays out in history and which has not stopped. 3. that it defines a radical difference between the saved in group and the not saved out group, the latter which is believed to be deserving of eternal punishment, and therefore promotes intolerance and hatred of the out group, and even has justified torturing them, killing them, and making them slaves. 4. that it has inspired a lot of cruel events that can look very demonic in modern times, with events so cruel that you might barf your dinner and have bad dreams if you heard them described in detail. 5. that if this teaching is a foundational tenet of some versions of Christianity and that if it is, for instance, one of the five fundamentals of Christian fundamentalism, then it may be considered sufficient proof that those versions of Christianity are false or at least in need of severe revision (unless they want to solve the contradiction by jettisoning belief in Unconditional Divine Love which I think would even be a worse mistake). 6. that it is a demon inspired dogma or a demonic meme (a mental virus which infects the mind and harms it, causing it to go insane and even become more intolerant and hateful), and that as long as a Christian tradition, or any tradition at all, believes the meme it will continue to have a demon lurking in it and causing all kinds of problems and suffering for people (some Christians who do believe it are less affected by simply not taking the belief seriously or not really believing it). 7. that it does not allow the cultic Christians who believe it to engage in mutually respectful dialogue with other religions and possibly learn from them (or at least forms a barrier of intolerance of heretics that is hard to overcome). 8. that it makes the cultic Christians fear based, guilt based, punitive, dogmatic, and intolerant. In answer to one of the questions raised earlier about why this contradiction between Unconditional Divine Love and Eternal Damnation has not been clearly seen and felt so that mature and sane Christians jettison it (like C. S. Lewis and George MacDonald and many universalists eventually did), it is because the meme had already taken root and build buffers around itself. It is for the same reason that many Whites in the South could be very loving to other Whites and not feel the need to love the Black slaves enough to set them free, treat them as equals, care for them, and not beat them. A kind of cognitive disodence happens to protect the meme. The study of memetic buffers is an interesting one in its own right. But the first step in releasing the idea is to "call a spade, a spade" to name the ugly meme for what it really is so that it can be released. It does indirectly link to the immortalist theme, because feeling that Divine Love pervades the universe is behind physical immortality, that heaven can replace hell here on Earth. The belief that "death is necessary and inevitable, that there is nothing you can do to stop it, and that you are a fool for trying" is another meme (and another theme for another day). Releasing these kinds of memetic infections does increase our health, happiness, and longevity.

[Lseadragon]

1. that the idea is a logical and psychological contradition to Unconditional Love You know what? I don't actually agree with this. This is an atheist agnostic speaking from a source he can't quite remember, so obviously you can't trust it; but what I've heard is that there is no dichotomy between heaven and hell. God takes all unto him; he does not throw them down or sort them in a sieve, and he loves them unconditionally. Where the torture comes within this is that in the light of God's love all your flaws are exposed, all the wrongdoings you did and covered up. You can see this so clearly; and if you behaved particularly badly then that knowledge will hurt, knowing you were wrong all that time. And the part, where unconditional love is reconciled with torture? If you do all these things, God loves you anyway. With that clarity of vision the guilt would be unbearable, and it'd never go away.

[Dannon Oneironaut]

Then what about repentance? What about Jesus's forgiveness for your sins? So you are saying that repentance is impossible? The dogma is that Jesus will save you from all of your wrongdoings if only you accept him as Lord and Saviour. Clearly there is a contradiction.

[Lseadragon]

I am indeed saying it's impossible; but the pain can be lessened. Accepting Jesus seems to me more than anything an acknowledgement of your sins; that you are a sinner and need to be saved. It's a simulacrum of the clarity of the presence of God; being able to look back on your sins and say "Yes, I did that, and it was wrong - please, forgive me" before the actual judgement. Acknowledgement brings it into view during your lifetime, and so clears away the future pain of denying it your whole life.

[Replicon]

This sums up the eternalness of it: In all seriousness, leaving hell would require forgiveness from the big shiny one.

[Dannon Oneironaut]

That is funny. But the problem is not with God, but with the people who believe that God is like that.

[StonedApe]

I think the point that you bring up about punishing children is very important. My parents are catholic and so were theirs and so on. When a child does something wrong in a catholic home, they are treated as if they are bad, even if this isn't explicitly expressed. When my brother breaks something, on accident, he is spoken to in a condescending manner. He is shown that he is at the bottem of the totem pole and should not think for himself, but do as he is told. Reminiscent of the patients in the ward from One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest. There doesn't even have to be any physical abuse. Treating a human as if they are bad is the stupidest way to get them to behave well. If they think they are bad they will behave poorly. Then when they get older they rationalize that they aren't actually bad, but they still feel it subconsciously. I believe that this eventually leads to them treating their children the same way which creates a terrible cycle continuing on through generations. It seems particular prevelent in women as women are regarded as inferior in the church as well(even if it;s less so now than 100 years ago, the sentiment is still there), they kind of have it double. I may not have explained this very well, I'm too tired to think straight. I'll come back to this tomorrow maybe.

[Replicon]

That is funny. But the problem is not with God, but with the people who believe that God is like that. Oh, I totally agree, and I like all your points in your OP as well. I went to a catholic high school. The kind that had a seminary attached to it (so like... they meant business). And even there, I didn't get the "hell is eternal" treatment. The guy who was teaching all the religion classes was actually really awesome, and I asked him about all sorts of stuff, including hell, and there was never any mention of "eternal torment" I think "eternal hell" must have come from the gospel of Glenn Beck. Where ever the idea comes from, it might as well have the Faux News Stripe Of Terror on the bottom. I have yet to hear a "god-fearing" christian explain the contradition in your first point without the BS "jesus died for your sins" argument which frankly means absolutely nothing. Jesus wasn't tortured in hell for eternity, so I'm not sure where his "sacrifice" has the same weight as anyone burning for eternity. According to the pope, god's warning about hell and separation from him comes out of love. Of course, he skips the part about god creating hell in the first place. Oh wait, he created hell for the devil... well, great, the devil is in there. Now seal that fucker shut, and show yourself so we can all bask in your love, oh omnipotent one.

[juroara]

I know coming from a Catholic family that many so-called Catholics don't even believe God sends people to hell. But considering that the church hasn't changed their beliefs, how can these same Catholics justify going to mass every Sunday and supporting an institution that doesn't even reflect what they really believe? Why do so many Catholics continue to call themselves Catholic when they don't believe in eternal damnation? Denial? Fear? We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church? And Replicon, its not just omnipotent one, its also Omnipresent One. Jesus teaches that the Creator is in Heaven and Heaven is within you. His teachings and the church's are incompatible. Silly Catholics!!

[Ne-yo]

I think the OP has a serious misunderstanding of the scriptures and is twisting the dogma of a so-called eternal hell with the 2nd death mentioned in the Bible. Revelation 20:14 reads: "And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Death itself means separation. The first death, physical death, is separation of the spirit from the body. The second death is eternal separation from God for ever and ever. I'm a Christian and never once do I recall seeing anything in the bible that states when a person dies, they go to some fiery tormented place to get tormented for eternity. Instead of going by what others are preaching to you, what did you find out for yourself when you read the scriptures? Thats the question you need to be asking yourself. I would go further to ask why Christians have not been bothered by this dogma. Why has this contradiction not been fully seen? Why should I be bothered by it? The Bible doesn't support such nonsense.

[Dannon Oneironaut]

I think the OP has a serious misunderstanding of the scriptures and is twisting the dogma of a so-called eternal hell with the 2nd death mentioned in the Bible. Revelation 20:14 reads: "And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Death itself means separation. The first death, physical death, is separation of the spirit from the body. The second death is eternal separation from God for ever and ever. I'm a Christian and never once do I recall seeing anything in the bible that states when a person dies, they go to some fiery tormented place to get tormented for eternity. Instead of going by what others are preaching to you, what did you find out for yourself when you read the scriptures? Thats the question you need to be asking yourself. Why should I be bothered by it? The Bible doesn't support such nonsense. Like I said in the original post: I don't believe that Jesus taught this, I don't think that it is in the Bible. But the sad fact is that many Christians DO believe it. And I moved out of North Carolina last summer, away from the South, here to Colorado, because they all believe it down there. And they thought that I was evil and they hated me. Just because I wasn't Christian, but I love Jesus and his teachings of unconditional love.

[greenhavoc]

So you are saying that repentance is impossible? If you make a conscious decision to abandon your responsibility it is.

[ChaybaChayba]

I'm not an expert on the Bible is I have never read it completely, but to my knowledge, Jesus argued that heaven and hell are right here on earth, and they will be granted to you depending on your perspective on this world.

[Velzhaed]

I'm not an expert on the Bible is I have never read it completely, but to my knowledge, Jesus argued that heaven and hell are right here on earth, and they will be granted to you depending on your perspective on this world. Let us know if you find a source for that, because I'm pretty sure that directly contradicts what Jesus (supposedly) actually said.

[StonedApe]

Let us know if you find a source for that, because I'm pretty sure that directly contradicts what Jesus (supposedly) actually said. I dunno, maybe I'm superimposing Robert Anton Wilson on to Jesus, but I think Jesus meant(I doubt he flat out said it) that heaven is a way of describing just being here on earth in spiritual ecstasy and hell is being here on caught up in your own ideas about how bad things are. I think Jesus understood non-dualism and tried to put it in a Jewish context. I'm pretty sure Jesus never even talked about heaven and hell, only the Kingdom of God, which is more or less living in the moment and accepting things as they are. Words don't really convey it well, you have to experience it yourself. Unless ye become as a little child, ye shall in no wise enter the Kingdom of Heaven- it;s about seeing things without having a preconceived notion about them, seeing them as they are. On top of this the books of the NT were written about 50(?I don't really know) years after Jesus died, so it's doubtful that what he said exactly is what's written in the bible, plus it was translated a million times. How can you take it literally if it's not really even his exact words, and even if it was why are you looking for the answers outside of yourself? After all Jesus said that we are all children of God, no?

[juroara]

Very loose and lazy indirect quotes off the top of my head................. Heaven is here on earth but you can not see it: Heaven is within you (the Creator is in Heaven): I am the Way the Truth and the Life, the only way to the Father is through me: I speak not of myself but the One who works in me: You, I and my Father are One (and Jesus prays later that we realize this!): Sheep I have that are not of this flock (in case you thought you had to be Christian! ha!) Jesus said a lot of things, all of which the church got completely wrong.

[Different]

yeah I don't get eternal hell, don't believe in it. Don't think you can commit a sin so grave on earth that is equal to eternal damnation in hell.

[Ostegolectric]

Eternal hell? More like MIND-CONTROL: YOU'RE GOING TO HELL FOR BEING EVIL But I don't want to :'( YOU DON'T HAVE TO What? GOD KILLED HIS SON ... THAT'S RIGHT, HE KILLED HIM SO THEN YOU DON'T HAVE GO TO HELL What?! Really? Oh what a loving and merciful god! YES. JUST FOLLOW EVERYTHING HE SAYS, AND YOU'LL BE GOOD I lol at how people can "sin" and get away with it but OH NO WAIT god can see you and you'll burn forever! So now that you're fearful, I'm free to commit ALL THE CRIMES MYSELF instead of you doing them because you believed the super-natural man in the sky bullshit I told you.