Mormonism

**Sandform** · 05-18-2008 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by 27

I believe in everything he wrote when he was acting as a prophet. Prophets are imperfect men who are entitled to their own opinions outside of what is reviled to them by God. Some prophets had racist tendencies which are, of corse, not in line which church teachings. I've yet to read anything Joseph wrote that I disagree with, but there may well be some.

I don't own Mormon texts so I can't look it up but...

“God was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens.” (Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Aug. 1, 1844)(is this even a religious text?)

LDS Prophet Joseph Smith taught that God was once a mortal man:

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. ...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil,...

It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, ...and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; ...you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another,... from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, Ch. 14, p. 305-6).

He wrote this but I'm not certain what he actually incorporated into religion.

It could be a complete fictional narrative that he wrote (his family often said that he created wild stories). This leaves open the possiblity that people used his fictional stories to state what he believed.

**Sandform** · 05-18-2008 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by 27

[Edit]

Didn't catch the second part of your post. Could you share the quote you mean?

Sorry I have posted so much, what is it your asking me to do? I "think" that the post above mine gives you the quotes.

also clarified my last statements...

That may very well be, Sandform, but these records are (false) made on false accusations.

changed to

That may very well be, Sandform, but these records are false or made on false accusations.

**Sandform** · 05-18-2008 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by Sandform

(Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Aug. 1, 1844)(is this even a religious text?)

No this is not a religious text I found out. It was a monthly periodical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_and_Seasons

Originally Posted by me

(History of the Church, Vol. 6, Ch. 14, p. 305-6).

A book by J. Smith. http://www.amazon.com/History-Church.../dp/0875794866

Sorry I keep trying to answer my own questions lol.

27 · 05-18-2008 10:43 PM

Heh, no problem, but like I said before, Joseph was entitled to his own opinion, but only the united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve can establish official LDS doctrine. I don't know whether or not we will have an opportunity to become Gods after we die, but I do know that it is not an official doctrine of the church.

**Sandform** · 05-18-2008 10:59 PM

Ok. So we have established that considering Smith wrote a book stating that you could become a god, that you disagree with at least some of what he has said?

I also wanted to ask, if you pick some things to include, and some to exclude, can't anyone who is a Mormon just decide to exclude things that Smith said as truth?

BTW, please feel free to add information on important things I didn't cover, I have a hard time finding information about Mormon religion. It seems like a lot of it is tried to be kept inside of the constraints of the religious people (like for example the meaning of the underwear). Oh I forgot, you may have missed it cause I posted so many things, but what about the Oath that says if you speak of what the symbols mean you signify that you must now allow them to kill you. Does that oath actually exist, or have you had to take it?

Also do you have your own secret name? I hear they give you a secret name that only you are allowed to know.

I really appreciate the conversation your adding to the thread.

27 · 05-19-2008 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Sandform

Ok. So we have established that considering Smith wrote a book stating that you could become a god, that you disagree with at least some of what he has said?

Well, first of all, Joseph never wrote a book. The quotation you used came from a book that quoted him, not from a book he wrote.

Originally Posted by Sandform

I also wanted to ask, if you pick some things to include, and some to exclude, can't anyone who is a Mormon just decide to exclude things that Smith said as truth?

Like I said, the opinions and thoughts of prophets are just that, opinions and thoughts. But if something is agree upon by the first presidency of the church and the 12 apostles, it become doctrinal, something no one could exclude.

Originally Posted by Sandform

BTW, please feel free to add information on important things I didn't cover, I have a hard time finding information about Mormon religion. It seems like a lot of it is tried to be kept inside of the constraints of the religious people (like for example the meaning of the underwear). Oh I forgot, you may have missed it cause I posted so many things, but what about the Oath that says if you speak of what the symbols mean you signify that you must now allow them to kill you. Does that oath actually exist, or have you had to take it?

Also do you have your own secret name? I hear they give you a secret name that only you are allowed to know.

I really appreciate the conversation your adding to the thread.

Like I said before, I have not been to the temple, and the ordinances that take place in a temple are considered to sacred to discuss. So even if I knew about the oaths, symbolism, and so on, I couldn't discuss it.

I'll get to your questions in my thread as soon as I can.

**Sandform** · 05-19-2008 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by 27

I'll get to your questions in my thread as soon as I can.

K thx =).

I know it takes a lot of time to talk about religious views because you don't want to say something that A doesn't accurately say what your trying to say and B can be misinterpreted into some ridiculous semantic debate.

**Sornaensis** · 05-19-2008 09:45 PM

So wait-- The Founder of Mormonism can contraict the batshit crazy crap he wrote and it doesn't phase you at all?

27 · 05-19-2008 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

So wait-- The Founder of Mormonism can contraict the batshit crazy crap he wrote and it doesn't phase you at all?

First of all, Joseph is the founder of Mormonism. Second, what contradiction are you talking about?

**Sornaensis** · 05-19-2008 10:03 PM

Well more a contradiction of your own personal beliefs.

“God was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens.”

So that just gets nullified but everything else he says is true?

27 · 05-19-2008 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Well more a contradiction of your own personal beliefs.

So that just gets nullified but everything else he says is true?

I never stated whether or not I believe in the deification of man. I just said that it's not an official doctrine of the church. You'll find some Mormons that believe in it and some that don't. There's no official stance on the matter as a church.

**Sandform** · 05-19-2008 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by 27

I never stated whether or not I believe in the deification of man. I just said that it's not an official doctrine of the church. You'll find some Mormons that believe in it and some that don't. There's no official stance on the matter as a church.

If the church didn't decide to incorporate it like the rest of Smiths word, then obviously they had doubts of its validity correct?

27 · 05-19-2008 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Sandform

If the church didn't decide to incorporate it like the rest of Smiths word, then obviously they had doubts of its validity correct?

Not necessarily, it could be something doesn't need to be revealed yet, or shouldn't be revealed yet for whatever reason.

**Sandform** · 05-19-2008 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by 27

Not necessarily, it could be something doesn't need to be revealed yet, or shouldn't be revealed yet for whatever reason.

X.X I don't want to be mean but...

Rationalization much? lol

27 · 05-19-2008 10:50 PM

I don't see why. There's no reason for the first presidency and the twelve to make a statement on every possible topic that could come up. Even if Joseph was wrong it wouldn't mean anything. He didn't make it doctrinal, and it isn't scriptural.

27 · 05-21-2008 11:06 PM

I hate to do this, but I've got to apologize. I was wrong. Deification of man is official Mormon doctrine. It's somewhat deeper doctrine which is, in my experience, not usually discussed at any great length, but is nevertheless, part of Mormon belief. All the statements I'd read on it seemed to leave the matter open. Not a great mark on my credibility is it? Oh well, I screwed up.

Anyway, I see some posts of Sandform's I somehow missed. I apologize in advance if this becomes a triple post.

**Sandform** · 05-21-2008 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by 27

I hate to do this, but I've got to apologize. I was wrong. Deification of man is official Mormon doctrine. It's somewhat deeper doctrine which is, in my experience, not usually discussed at any great length, but is nevertheless, part of Mormon belief. All the statements I'd read on it seemed to leave the matter open. Not a great mark on my credibility is it? Oh well, I screwed up.

Anyway, I see some posts of Sandform's I somehow missed. I apologize in advance if this becomes a triple post.

Haha triple posting? That is fine with me lol I think I have like quintuple posted before in the thread lol.

**Sandform** · 05-21-2008 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Sandform

Joseph Smith has been said to have taught about men living on Mars.

Eek, just to clarify this statement was wrong lol. I meant moon...I don't know why I said Mars...

27 · 05-21-2008 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by Sandform

Eek, just to clarify this statement was wrong lol. I meant moon...I don't know why I said Mars...

Did you read the link I posted about that?

**Sandform** · 05-22-2008 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by 27

Did you read the link I posted about that?

Yes I read it, I was just pointing out that what I said was a typo.

**phandentium** · 05-22-2008 06:29 AM

Why do Mormon's violate other's rights by baptizing the dead?

**Sandform** · 05-22-2008 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by phandentium

Why do Mormon's violate other's rights by baptizing the dead?

At first I thought you were joking but then...

Originally Posted by http://www.catholic.com/library/Mormonism_Baptism_for_the_Dead.asp

They believe people who have died can be baptized by proxy, thus allowing them the opportunity to become Mormons after their death. The idea behind baptism for the dead is this: God wants each of us to be with him in glory. To effect this, he allows us to accept the Mormon gospel here on earth. If we do not, he sends us to a "spirit prison" until the Mormon gospel has been preached to us there and we convert.

Mormons believe that their church has missionaries in the "spirit world" who are busy spreading the Mormon gospel to dead people who have not yet received it. Should any of these dead people want to convert to Mormonism, they are required to abide by all its rules, one of which is water baptism. Hence the need for proxies to receive the corporeal waters of baptism.

**phandentium** · 05-22-2008 07:37 AM

That's why Mormons have an extensive family tree. People go to them often to get information on their lineage.

**Sandform** · 05-22-2008 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by phandentium

That's why Mormons have an extensive family tree. People go to them often to get information on their lineage.

Atleast Mormons believe you can be saved AFTER death. I totally don't dislike the mormon religion (as much) anymore. I still think some things are horrible about it...but less horrible it does appear!