Mormonism

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I will spare the details of the entire religious background (because what defines Mormonism is the change in belief from previous ones, much like I would skip Judaism if I spoke of Christianity) though if you have questions I will provide as clear answers as I can. Vocabulary Mormonism - is a term used to describe the religious, ideological, and cultural elements of certain branches of the Latter Day Saint movement. Mormon - the adherents, practitioners, followers or constituents of Mormonism. The Book of Mormon - one of the sacred texts of the Latter Day Saint movement. Moroni - A profet, and an angel who gave Joseph Smith stones Neophyte - a person newly converted to a belief, as a heathen, heretic, or nonbeliever; proselyte.a beginner or novice. A recent convert to a belief; a proselyte. Joseph Smith - originator of the Mormon religion. Urim and Thummim - the seer stones used to translate God's word. Polygamy - More than one wife. exaltation - the ultimate goal in the plan of salvation. The state of being gods and goddesses—eternal parents—brings joy and happiness that last forever. Origin The Book of Mormon was first published by Joseph Smith. According to Smith's written account, the book [of mormon] is a translation of gold plates which contained the writings of prophets in ancient Meso-America between approximately 600 BC and AD 400. The plates were buried by Moroni, the last of these prophets, at a hill called Cumorah. He used two stones called the Urim and Thummim to create the book of Mormon. He placed the stones inside of a hat and then turned the hat upside down and then the stones would begin to glow and he could then see burried treasure or rather the sacred texts. Purpose. "to show the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord has done for their fathers" and to convince "Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself to all nations." Many doctrinal teachings The following teachings are considered especially important in the Book of Mormon: Jesus spoke to the Jews in Jerusalem of “other sheep” who would hear his voice, which the Book of Mormon claims meant that the Nephites and other remnants of the lost tribes of Israel throughout the world were to be visited by Jesus after his resurrection. The Old Testament prophet Isaiah spoke of prophets who would "whisper out of the dust.". The Book of Mormon interprets this as a reference to itself. The land of the Jaredites, Nephites, and Lamanites is choice above all other lands. "Inasmuch as ye keep [the Lord's] commandments, ye shall prosper in the land, but inasmuch as ye keep not [his] commandments, ye shall be cut off from [his] presence." Men and women are "free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself." All mankind must be born again, for the natural man is an enemy to God until he yields to the holy spirit and is born of Christ, being changed to a state of righteousness, becoming his son or daughter. "Adam fell that men might be, and men are, that they might have joy." Partaking of the fruit of the tree of life, which tree "is the love of God, which sheddeth itself abroad in the hearts of the children of men" and "is the most desirable above all things" will bring the most joy to the soul. Between death and the resurrection the spirit returns to God and awaits the resurrection. At the resurrection, the spirit and body shall be reunited, not one hair of the head shall be lost, and this resurrection shall come to all. Giving to the poor is emphasized as a necessary aspect of living the gospel of Christ. Service to others is essential, and is the same as serving God. The Lord "denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile." Polygamy. Smith came to his wife one day and said that God had revealed to him that he must have more than one wife, and if his wife didn't agree to this concept then she was to be destroyed. She had six (perhaps more or less?) children and one of was of very low intelligence (I.E. mentally handicapped). Moroni's Promise The book invites the reader to make a personal investigation into its truthfulness. The final chapter states that anyone who wants to know if the message of the Book of Mormon is true should ask God. It promises that God will give them an undeniable sign of its truthfulness.[42] This is often referred to as Moroni's Promise.

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Other history. I can't find much information about it, but in the book of Mormon there are chapters that refer to wars known as the "nephite" wars and basically these are great battles fought on the continent of America. No evidence has been found to support such wars on this continent. As soon as Joseph Smith came out with the "book of Mormon" and the "latter day saints" came out, the Smith family told the public to watch out for him and they accused him of the following. Joseph Smith has been accused of being a con artist, who has been arrested for such, he and his father, and brother, would say to farmers that they had magical stones that told them where treasure was and then tell the farmers they would gladly accept money to dig for the treasure and anything they find was the farmers. They never found anything, and when the farmer would come Joseph would say that the demon that guard the treasure were trying to keep them from getting it, and the farmer would let them carry on. Eventually the farmer would catch on, pay them for their time, and ask them to leave. Records have found that Joseph Smith had been convicted of fraud. Smith cheated on his wife until he was caught and then stated that God told him that he should have more than one wife and if his wife declined he would destroy her. One of his wives (a young girl of the age of...hmm I can't find it, but it seems somewhere around 14-15 years old) had been one of the women he chose to marry. He went to her parents under the guise of saying that God had proclaimed she should wed him. Her parents agreed, however she declined. Smith told her he should think of the eternal souls of her parents (I.E. they would go to hell if she denied him what he wanted.) and she eventually conceded because the burden was too much for her. Joseph Smith also made comments about aliens living on the moon who dressed much in the style of Quakers, and lived on average 1000 years.

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A historical invalidation of the mormon religion can be found here. MormonShmormon I haven't read it yet, it doesn't begin to cover the topic of the Mormon ideology until around paragraph three or four (they are small paragraphs) This document uses footnotes, anything stated (separate from opinions or conclusions) are connected the the super scripted numbers to the bottom. Edit: I have just completed reading the article, fairly interesting.

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In Mormonism you can become a God when you die and have your own spiritual babies.

[Dreamworld]

Its informative, but biased.

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Its informative, but biased. The first post is free of bias... Also, if it is true it isn't biased. Almost everything I have said is backed up by evidence, and if you cite something that you desire evidence for I will provide it for you. Some of it is only testimony from a former Mormon. Everything after that is stuff I found against it. First I provide the positive things, then I provide the negatives. I have only presented 1 negative thing in the hindu thread, because I'm still working on getting all of the information. Hinduism has so much to learn. My threads are created because people ask why Christianity is the only religion challenged (a lie) so I'm trying to show them why that is how it seems, no one on the religious side really will debate about things other than that.

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Marriage. Marriage is a personal choice, but virtually all Mormon-based factions assert that this choice MUST be made based on criteria issued by the religious leadership.

[cuddleyperson]

pretty sure we've had this before, isn't 27 a Mormon? There was like a huge thread on it.

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http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=52823 But his was "ask me" that isn't very informative.

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Oaths. You must take oaths when in the Mormon religion in which you swear many things, that among them that you will not reveal the meaning of the sacred underwear, and other things, or you are signifying your approval of people to slit your throat and do other things to your body.

[27]

I’ve never heard the term “Neophyte before”. I asked my family and they weren’t familiar with the term either. Where did you hear it? The information you provided about Joseph Smith is absolutely false. Your sources appear to be anti-Mormon sites, which will say anything to make the church look bad. There's no evidence that Joseph did any of these things. My "not very informative" thread already went over some of these issues (and it's still open, I've really been hoping someone would ask another question) like your accusation of Joseph being a con artist. This article does an in depth examination of these charges and the supposed "trial". This wiki article shows the "moonmen" accusation as the hoax that it is. This one explores many aspects of polygamy, including the accusations you made. You need to look for more than one, obviously biased, anti-Mormon source before saying something like that. In Mormonism you can become a God when you die and have your own spiritual babies. This is starting to upset. You clearly don't understand Mormonism and I don't know why you'd make a thread about it. That isn't one of out beliefs, it isn't anywhere close to any of our beliefs. Moonmen and spirit babies? Maybe you're simply mistaken, but it appears you, or the source you got this from is trying to spread misinformation about the church.

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I’ve never heard the term “Neophyte before”. I asked my family and they weren’t familiar with the term either. Where did you hear it? It is a different spelling of the word for the neophite wars. I can not find very much information about this, though I have found a few pieces here and there and a youtube video that was being made by Mormons about the wars who decided not to do it for some reason...they made the trailer and then never carried on. The information you provided about Joseph Smith is absolutely false. Your sources appear to be anti-Mormon sites, which will say anything to make the church look bad. There's no evidence that Joseph did any of these things. My "not very informative" thread already went over some of these issues (and it's still open, I've really been hoping someone would ask another question) like your accusation of Joseph being a con artist. I wasn't trying to say that your thread wasn't informative, but the problem is that your saying ask me questions about my religion...but the first question should be, what is your religion? You don't start out with any information about your beliefs and practices. This article does an in depth examination of these charges and the supposed "trial". This wiki article shows the "moonmen" accusation as the hoax that it is. First off the validity of his crimes aren't in question. They have more than one document of his arrests. Second...your using an apologetic site? http://en.fairmormon.org/Main_Page Meanwhile your more than willing to except J. Smiths account of an angel talking to him, yet when a religious person who took on some of the same responsibilities of Smith says that Smith said something equally far fetched, you wont take word on it because we can prove that men don't live on the moon. " "The noted Mormon apologist Hugh Nibley published a book in which this statement appeared: "...if this court record is authentic it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith." (The Myth Makers, 1961, page 142) On the same page we read that such a court record would be "the most devastating blow to Smith ever delivered." Because he could see the serious implications of the matter, Dr. Nibley tried in every way possible to destroy the idea that the court record was an authentic document."" source of quote, though not of my statement. Of course your going to have the Mormons try to deny things that are crippling towards their religious leader. This one explores many aspects of polygamy, including the accusations you made. You need to look for more than one, obviously biased, anti-Mormon source before saying something like that. I am only saying what I have seen. You'll have to tell me what accusations I made so that I can understand and try to reach a reasonable form of conversation with you about the topic. This is starting to upset. You clearly don't understand Mormonism and I don't know why you'd make a thread about it. That isn't one of out beliefs, it isn't anywhere close to any of our beliefs. Moonmen and spirit babies? Maybe you're simply mistaken, but it appears you, or the source you got this from is trying to spread misinformation about the church. I should have said "spirit children" but none the less it is what your religion teaches (though the moonmen thing I can't vouch on, supposedly J. Smith said it in a letter and somewhere there is a picture of it that I have seen but I can't find it. Mormonism also teaches that each husband and wife—each celestial companionship—will gain the opportunity to have spirit children and create worlds of their own. This is known in Mormon theology as exaltation, and it is the ultimate goal in the plan of salvation. The state of being gods and goddesses—eternal parents—brings joy and happiness that last forever. Are you denying that the mormon religion teaches [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaltation_(Mormonism)]exaltation[/quote]

[Dreamworld]

Can't you provide unbiased information? Without the need to eradicte Mormonism? Now I have to look this shit up.

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Can't you provide unbiased information? Without the need to eradicte Mormonism? Now I have to look this shit up. S'cuse me I am giving you unbiased information. The first page is NOTHING but what occurred and what the Mormons believe. I am not going to lie about who Joseph Smith is, or was. There is evidence that he was a fraud and a con artist, I can not deny this evidence. Exaltation is a belief in their practices... Joseph Smith has been said to have taught about men living on Mars. Nothing I have said has come without warrant from the research I have done. And btw, good, I hope you look it up, I can't find all this information on my own, why do you think I invited 27 to the thread? I want misconceptions cleared up as much as anyone else does.

[27]

It is a different spelling of the word for the neophite wars. I can not find very much information about this, though I have found a few pieces here and there and a youtube video that was being made by Mormons about the wars who decided not to do it for some reason...they made the trailer and then never carried on. I'm having trouble understanding what you mean. I think you might have meant "Nephite", which is the name of group of people in the Book of Mormon. I wasn't trying to say that your thread wasn't informative, but the problem is that your saying ask me questions about my religion...but the first question should be, what is your religion? You don't start out with any information about your beliefs and practices. I wanted to leave it as open as possible so anyone could ask anything about our beliefs, history, etc. I wanted clear up myths surrounding Mormonism, not give a history lesson/ sermon. First off the validity of his crimes aren't in question. They have more than one document of his arrests. Second...your using an apologetic site? http://en.fairmormon.org/Main_Page Meanwhile your more than willing to except J. Smiths account of an angel talking to him, yet when a religious person who took on some of the same responsibilities of Smith says that Smith said something equally far fetched, you wont take word on it because we can prove that men don't live on the moon. " "The noted Mormon apologist Hugh Nibley published a book in which this statement appeared: "...if this court record is authentic it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith." (The Myth Makers, 1961, page 142) On the same page we read that such a court record would be "the most devastating blow to Smith ever delivered." Because he could see the serious implications of the matter, Dr. Nibley tried in every way possible to destroy the idea that the court record was an authentic document."" source of quote, though not of my statement. Of course your going to have the Mormons try to deny things that are crippling towards their religious leader. The validity of the crimes is in question. He wasn't a con artist and he was never convicted of money digging. There wasn't even a trial. Yes, he was arrested later many times on false charges, sometime before the governor of Illinois made it legal to kill Mormons. But if you're referring to some kind of an conviction in his youth of money digging or of him being a con artist, you are mistaken. And yes, I am linking to an apologetic site while you were linking to site with a clearly anti-Mormon agenda. Why is my site any less valid? I am only saying what I have seen. You'll have to tell me what accusations I made so that I can understand and try to reach a reasonable form of conversation with you about the topic. Your entire second post is filled with ridiculous accusations that are completely disproved in the links I provided. I should have said "spirit children" but none the less it is what your religion teaches (though the moonmen thing I can't vouch on, supposedly J. Smith said it in a letter and somewhere there is a picture of it that I have seen but I can't find it. Mormonism also teaches that each husband and wife—each celestial companionship—will gain the opportunity to have spirit children and create worlds of their own. This is known in Mormon theology as exaltation, and it is the ultimate goal in the plan of salvation. The state of being gods and goddesses—eternal parents—brings joy and happiness that last forever. Are you denying that the mormon religion teaches [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaltation_(Mormonism)]exaltation We teach exaltation, but despite what wikipedia says, exaltation does not mean "becoming Gods and Goddesses". It means living in the presence of our Heavenly Father.

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I'm having trouble understanding what you mean. I think you might have meant "Nephite", which is the name of group of people in the Book of Mormon. We teach exaltation, but despite what wikipedia says, exaltation does not mean "becoming Gods and Goddesses". It means living in the presence of our Heavenly Father. It is probably Nephite. Well that may be what your sect preaches to you, but many ex-Mormons have come out and spoken candidly that their church has taught them this, and then when their church was confronted they denied it explicitly. Are you allowed to talk about what the symbols on your clothes mean? Or will you die... How are official records in question of validity? But honestly it is pretty much pointless to debate about Joseph Smith, because the religion isn't even about him, it is about the message he gave. I happen to believe that he was a con artist, because there is evidence to support it, but you can say the evidence is fraudulent if you like.

[Sandform]

Christianity has taught monotheism from its foundation, the belief in the existence of one God. Mormonism believes in the existence of a plurality of gods. According to Mormonism, there are an infinite number of planets like earth in the universe, each with their god or gods who were once men who have evolved into godhood. Mormon theologian and Apostle Bruce McConkie states, "[A] plurality of gods exist . . . there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods."{3} Joseph Smith wrote, "In the beginning, the head of the gods called a council of the gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and (the) people in it."{4} http://wri.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/mormon-god.html

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A race of gods, {advanced humanoids from a planet orbiting the mysterious star Kolab} who were once only men but through adherence to Mormon teachings became gods, called a council and decided that Jesus would be the God and savior of planet Earth. Lucifer, spirit brother of Jesus 1, wanting to be God and savior of Earth, lead a rebellion and lost. The followers of Lucifer became demons and therefore denied bodies of flesh and blood for all eternity. Those who remained neutral in the rebellion were cursed to be born with black skin 2. Those who followed Jesus were born with white skin. “God was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens.” (Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Aug. 1, 1844) LDS Prophet Joseph Smith taught that God was once a mortal man: "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. ...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil,... It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, ...and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; ...you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another,... from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, Ch. 14, p. 305-6).

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It appears most of the outrageous claims that are made in mormonism don't even come from the book of mormon but rather... "The Pearl of Great Price." Contained in that book is "The Book of Abraham." http://books.google.com/books?id=LGk...with-thumbnail

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I just want to make this a point right now. I have NO DOUBT that you are a good person 27, that is not in question, I only have doubts that Mormonism is as pure as its members would like me (and the rest of society) to believe. I also have no doubt that what you believe is probably different from what other mormons believe, just like what many religious people believe is different from what other religious people in their own religion believe.

[27]

It is probably Nephite. 1. Well that may be what your sect preaches to you, but many ex-Mormons have come out and spoken candidly that their church has taught them this, and then when their church was confronted they denied it explicitly. My "sect" is 13 million strong if that's what you mean. I don't know about what the RLDS or the FLDS teaches but the main stream LDS church does not teach that men and women will become Gods in the next life. That's simply not true. You can continue arguing it, but I assure you, that definition of exaltation is false. There may be some Mormons who believe that, but it is not an official doctrine of the LDS church. Are you allowed to talk about what the symbols on your clothes mean? Or will you die... Temple garments are worn by LDS members after they have received their endowments in an LDS temple. The specific ordinances preformed in the temple are considered to sacred to discuss outside the temple. I've yet to receive my endowments, but even if I knew, I couldn't discuss it outside the temple. How are official records in question of validity? Hugh Nibley was a Mormon scholar, but not an actual leader of the church, meaning that nothing he wrote was an "official record" of the church. But honestly it is pretty much pointless to debate about Joseph Smith, because the religion isn't even about him, it is about the message he gave. I happen to believe that he was a con artist, because there is evidence to support it, but you can say the evidence is fraudulent if you like. That's fine, but I am willing to debate it if you are.

[27]

I just want to make this a point right now. I have NO DOUBT that you are a good person 27, that is not in question, I only have doubts that Mormonism is as pure as its members would like me (and the rest of society) to believe. I also have no doubt that what you believe is probably different from what other mormons believe, just like what many religious people believe is different from what other religious people in their own religion believe. You will find variation among what different Mormons believe but some things are official, and some are not. Official statements, teachings, doctrines, and so on are things that every Mormon believes.

[Sandform]

That's fine, but I am willing to debate it if you are. Well it is really hard to debate lol. I say: 27, there are documents that show his warrants for arrest under the crime of fraud. You say: That may very well be, Sandform, but these records are false or made on false accusations. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We reach and impenetrable impasse at this point. Unless we can hope into a time machine we will just end up in a what I (as in the side your on) happen to see as more likely.

[Sandform]

You will find variation among what different Mormons believe but some things are official, and some are not. Official statements, teachings, doctrines, and so on are things that every Mormon believes. I just have to ask, do you believe in everything Joseph Smith wrote? Because he did write that men can become Gods...

[27]

I just have to ask, do you believe in everything Joseph Smith wrote? Because he did write that men can become Gods... I believe in everything he wrote when he was acting as a prophet. Prophets are imperfect men who are entitled to their own opinions outside of what is reviled to them by God. Some prophets had racist tendencies which are, of corse, not in line which church teachings. I've yet to read anything Joseph wrote that I disagree with, but there may well be some. [Edit] Didn't catch the second part of your post. Could you share the quote you mean?