A Hopefully Quite Unusual Challenge to Christians

[apachama]

When I ask Christians what I should do to know God, they tell me to read the Bible, pray and have faith. Now, I grew up a Christian and gave it up in favour of following where my dreams were taking me after a lengthy period of soul searching and more than one bizarre event. Every so often, I do want to go back. I pray, I read the Bible. I study, and I ask for some kind of sign. I rarely go to church because of these feelings because I live in a small town and going to church means I end up intruding on Christians I meet every day and don't want to get the wrong idea about me. If my feelings are especially sincere; they often culminate in a very vivid dream that reaffirms my optimism about the world while telling me not to go with Christianity in no uncertain terms. The same is true for converting to Baha'i and Atenism. Thus far I haven't tried the other major monotheistic branches of thought. It seems like a weird exercise to get stuck into. My conclusion is that if God exists, he hasn't contacted me while I've tried to contact him. Thus he must either be happy with me not being a Christian or some being with more power than God over my life has other plans. I'm interested in seeing what any Christians who post here think. I'm also open to suggestions, and I'm hoping this won't be taken as an attack on your relationship with God.

[ClouD]

ClouD open his eyes. ClouD close his eyes.

[Dizko]

When I ask Christians what I should do to know God, they tell me to read the Bible, pray and have faith. Now, I grew up a Christian and gave it up in favour of following where my dreams were taking me after a lengthy period of soul searching and more than one bizarre event. Every so often, I do want to go back. I pray, I read the Bible. I study, and I ask for some kind of sign. I rarely go to church because of these feelings because I live in a small town and going to church means I end up intruding on Christians I meet every day and don't want to get the wrong idea about me. If my feelings are especially sincere; they often culminate in a very vivid dream that reaffirms my optimism about the world while telling me not to go with Christianity in no uncertain terms. The same is true for converting to Baha'i and Atenism. Thus far I haven't tried the other major monotheistic branches of thought. It seems like a weird exercise to get stuck into. My conclusion is that if God exists, he hasn't contacted me while I've tried to contact him. Thus he must either be happy with me not being a Christian or some being with more power than God over my life has other plans. I'm interested in seeing what any Christians who post here think. I'm also open to suggestions, and I'm hoping this won't be taken as an attack on your relationship with God. Nice to meet you, apachama. My advice is this. If you were God, how would you want to be approached? One of your creations wants to know and love you. If i was God, i would want the person to just be 'damn' straight with me. No airy fairy rubbish - just striaght out : "Okay seriously. If you exist i want to know. I want to love you, serve you, and be with you. All things aside - My attitudes towards things, my beliefs and commitments to certain ideas, lets take them out of the equation, i just 100% honestly want to know you. I'm not necessarily asking for some crazy sign, and perhaps i'm not even asking for this in the right way - all i can do is be honest and give my humble request". Because really, what else can you do?

[skysaw]

Live your life in the best way you know how. Be good to people. Do no harm. The rest will work itself out.

[apachama]

If i was God, i would want the person to just be 'damn' straight with me. That, I suppose is the essence of what confuses me about Christianity at present on a personal level. If one asks God a straight question, and gets no answer, or an answer that seems to contradict Christianity, where does that leave Christianity?

[Dizko]

That, I suppose is the essence of what confuses me about Christianity at present on a personal level. If one asks God a straight question, and gets no answer, or an answer that seems to contradict Christianity, where does that leave Christianity? Gotta go back to basics i suppose. The bible says the barrier between us and God is sin, and the bridge is Jesus. So..I guess the reason one would not get an answer is because God refuses to look/approach sin, until the person has been 'born again' through Jesus Christ. Interesting topic.

[Sornaensis]

So how exactly did this god-man talk to all those people in the OT? Yeah, back up shit creek for christianity.

[Dizko]

So how exactly did this god-man talk to all those people in the OT? Yeah, back up shit creek for christianity. Wow dude, so much hate. Chill out I'm not sure i understand what you're asking. Could you phrase it differently?

[juroara]

"So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you." Years ago I was a fairly devout catholic. But something was really bothering me about the catholic doctrine, seriously hurting me. So I prayed to Jesus to help me understand what was wrong, to help me understand something I wasn't understanding. I felt Jesus was the only person I can trust for answers. I did some honest soul searching. I never heard any Jesus voice in my mind, or any voice for that matter. Rather, I felt drawn to things. Like a magnet. And I moved in the direction of those things I felt drawn to. And over time, ALL of my questions were answered. I repeat, ALL OF MY QUESTIONS WERE ANSWERED. I eventually left the catholic faith, never wanting to look back. But I remain christian, because the entire time I felt it was Christ who was helping me to see something, I wasn't seeing before. The bible says that God is spirit. If you aren't willing to listen to your own spirit, what makes you think you can hear and know the spirit God? Then you would understand, the only way to know God, is to first listen to your spirit. There are a lot of people who don't listen to their spirit, they listen to their logical brain, even if something deep inside of them is crying out "its wrong!". This happens to christians world wide. They listen to the priest, to the pope, to the church, to even the bible, even when something inside of them cries out "NO!". They ignore it, and pass off their own gut feelings as something evil. And instead, they listen to their logical brain. They have it quite backwards actually. The human logic is flawed, its dualism, the root of that which we call evil. The human logic can make anything logical. From Hitler, to slavery, to every injustice, they were all backed up with 'logical' reasons. The human logic can not be trusted for measuring real truth. Look at today, what's happening in the middle east? Someone made logical reasons to justify their injustice. "Oh..this book says so..ho ho ho" Instead, look at spirituality. Look what happens when people meditate and drop all the human ego. From Jesus to Buddha, to Krishna - the message begins to become universal and undivided. Unconditional love and compassion. The human logic on the other hand will find you a million and one reasons why you should not be loving or compassionate to another. Which will people listen to? You felt you did soul searching and found A. Then A is where you need to be right now!! Just be sure not to be trapped and think your searching is done. Even when we do listen to our gut instincts, they can and are often wrong. But its like a muscle. We exercise it. Fine tune it. The more we seek, the more we listen, the more we are going to find it.

[bluefinger]

"So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you." Years ago I was a fairly devout catholic. But something was really bothering me about the catholic doctrine, seriously hurting me. So I prayed to Jesus to help me understand what was wrong, to help me understand something I wasn't understanding. I felt Jesus was the only person I can trust for answers. I did some honest soul searching. I never heard any Jesus voice in my mind, or any voice for that matter. Rather, I felt drawn to things. Like a magnet. And I moved in the direction of those things I felt drawn to. And over time, ALL of my questions were answered. I repeat, ALL OF MY QUESTIONS WERE ANSWERED. I eventually left the catholic faith, never wanting to look back. But I remain christian, because the entire time I felt it was Christ who was helping me to see something, I wasn't seeing before. The bible says that God is spirit. If you aren't willing to listen to your own spirit, what makes you think you can hear and know the spirit God? Then you would understand, the only way to know God, is to first listen to your spirit. There are a lot of people who don't listen to their spirit, they listen to their logical brain, even if something deep inside of them is crying out "its wrong!". This happens to christians world wide. They listen to the priest, to the pope, to the church, to even the bible, even when something inside of them cries out "NO!". They ignore it, and pass off their own gut feelings as something evil. And instead, they listen to their logical brain. They have it quite backwards actually. The human logic is flawed, its dualism, the root of that which we call evil. The human logic can make anything logical. From Hitler, to slavery, to every injustice, they were all backed up with 'logical' reasons. The human logic can not be trusted for measuring real truth. Look at today, what's happening in the middle east? Someone made logical reasons to justify their injustice. "Oh..this book says so..ho ho ho" Instead, look at spirituality. Look what happens when people meditate and drop all the human ego. From Jesus to Buddha, to Krishna - the message begins to become universal and undivided. Unconditional love and compassion. The human logic on the other hand will find you a million and one reasons why you should not be loving or compassionate to another. Which will people listen to? You felt you did soul searching and found A. Then A is where you need to be right now!! Just be sure not to be trapped and think your searching is done. Even when we do listen to our gut instincts, they can and are often wrong. But its like a muscle. We exercise it. Fine tune it. The more we seek, the more we listen, the more we are going to find it. So... Human logic is responsible for Hitler? Godwin's Law and Reductio Ad Hitlerum. This thread has just died now

[Original Poster]

Everytime God talked to people in the past they got murdered. He's keeping himself from us for our own protection. The Father is the force of order, like the Kobe Bryant of our planet, but along with a force of order trying to win the game, there's forces of chaos that fuck up everything he tries to accomplish.

[juroara]

So... Human logic is responsible for Hitler? Godwin's Law and Reductio Ad Hitlerum. This thread has just died now I can use other examples besides Hitler. look at how the black people live, compared to the white man, ignorant as animals. look at their bulging muscles, and sturdy backs. look at their skin, dirty and burned by the sun. clearly they are less than white men, and are meant to work in fields - as beasts of burden. the shape of their skull is evidence of their inferior intelligence. we don't even have to feel sorry for making these less than humans work for us, because we are going to save their inferior human souls by introducing them to the gospel. without our intervention of these inferior humans, they were HELL sent. we are actually helping them!! don't doubt the human mind to create logical reasons to justify ANYTHING.

[Original Poster]

Agreed.

[bluefinger]

I can use other examples besides Hitler. look at how the black people live, compared to the white man, ignorant as animals. look at their bulging muscles, and sturdy backs. look at their skin, dirty and burned by the sun. clearly they are less than white men, and are meant to work in fields - as beasts of burden. the shape of their skull is evidence of their inferior intelligence. we don't even have to feel sorry for making these less than humans work for us, because we are going to save their inferior human souls by introducing them to the gospel. without our intervention of these inferior humans, they were HELL sent. we are actually helping them!! don't doubt the human mind to create logical reasons to justify ANYTHING. That ain't logic though... that's just scary ass conviction. Playing the hitler card though pretty much lost you any credibility in this discussion

[Taosaur]

That ain't logic though... that's just scary ass conviction. Playing the hitler card though pretty much lost you any credibility in this discussion It was a tangential Godwining in a non-debate thread to which she was explicitly invited and you explicitly were not. Your aggressive and inapropriate use of Godwin's law dilutes the meme such that it is subject to its own logic. You have actualized an event horizon into which all your arguments in this forum, past and future, will be drawn by the feebleness of their own rhetoric. Longcat help you now.

[bluefinger]

It was a tangential Godwining in a non-debate thread to which she was explicitly invited and you explicitly were not. Your aggressive and inapropriate use of Godwin's law dilutes the meme such that it is subject to its own logic. You have actualized an event horizon into which all your arguments in this forum, past and future, will be drawn by the feebleness of their own rhetoric. Longcat help you now. Lulz. Perhaps I should simply just use the Reduction Ad Hitlerum then?

[dragonoverlord]

That, I suppose is the essence of what confuses me about Christianity at present on a personal level. If one asks God a straight question, and gets no answer, or an answer that seems to contradict Christianity, where does that leave Christianity? Well i think a Christian might say. The mind is deceitful and can be corrupted by Satan thus it is better to just rely on the bible for answers.

[A dreamer168]

I don't think that

[Dreamcaster]

I can use other examples besides Hitler. look at how the black people live, compared to the white man, ignorant as animals. look at their bulging muscles, and sturdy backs. look at their skin, dirty and burned by the sun. clearly they are less than white men, and are meant to work in fields - as beasts of burden. the shape of their skull is evidence of their inferior intelligence. we don't even have to feel sorry for making these less than humans work for us, because we are going to save their inferior human souls by introducing them to the gospel. without our intervention of these inferior humans, they were HELL sent. we are actually helping them!! don't doubt the human mind to create logical reasons to justify ANYTHING. juroara, that is really inappropriate, even in the context of an example. I mean I can't help but feel you are illustrating your own personal views about black people. Your example is wrong and in poor taste. I honestly think you should retract your quote and should use something less heartless. I hope this isn't an example of using your gut. It kind of hurts me that you would use such an example, because before I read what you wrote I actually agreed with much of your preceding post. "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you." Years ago I was a fairly devout catholic. But something was really bothering me about the catholic doctrine, seriously hurting me. So I prayed to Jesus to help me understand what was wrong, to help me understand something I wasn't understanding. I felt Jesus was the only person I can trust for answers. I did some honest soul searching. I never heard any Jesus voice in my mind, or any voice for that matter. Rather, I felt drawn to things. Like a magnet. And I moved in the direction of those things I felt drawn to. And over time, ALL of my questions were answered. I repeat, ALL OF MY QUESTIONS WERE ANSWERED. I eventually left the catholic faith, never wanting to look back. But I remain christian, because the entire time I felt it was Christ who was helping me to see something, I wasn't seeing before. The bible says that God is spirit. If you aren't willing to listen to your own spirit, what makes you think you can hear and know the spirit God? Then you would understand, the only way to know God, is to first listen to your spirit. There are a lot of people who don't listen to their spirit, they listen to their logical brain, even if something deep inside of them is crying out "its wrong!". This happens to christians world wide. They listen to the priest, to the pope, to the church, to even the bible, even when something inside of them cries out "NO!". They ignore it, and pass off their own gut feelings as something evil. And instead, they listen to their logical brain. They have it quite backwards actually. The human logic is flawed, its dualism, the root of that which we call evil. The human logic can make anything logical. From Hitler, to slavery, to every injustice, they were all backed up with 'logical' reasons. The human logic can not be trusted for measuring real truth. Look at today, what's happening in the middle east? Someone made logical reasons to justify their injustice. "Oh..this book says so..ho ho ho" Instead, look at spirituality. Look what happens when people meditate and drop all the human ego. From Jesus to Buddha, to Krishna - the message begins to become universal and undivided. Unconditional love and compassion. The human logic on the other hand will find you a million and one reasons why you should not be loving or compassionate to another. Which will people listen to? You felt you did soul searching and found A. Then A is where you need to be right now!! Just be sure not to be trapped and think your searching is done. Even when we do listen to our gut instincts, they can and are often wrong. But its like a muscle. We exercise it. Fine tune it. The more we seek, the more we listen, the more we are going to find it. To be clear, there's nothing wrong with Catholicism. It may not be right for you, but that doesn't mean it's flawed. Maybe your heart just wasn't as devoted to Catholicism as much as you might have believed. apachama, the first thing you must learn about is faith. Faith is about not seeing; yet still believing. Seeing God shouldn't be what fuels your faith. Faith beyond reason. Unconditional love should fuel your faith. Seeing God is a privilege, not a right. You must prove your faith by showing God that you really believe in Him. It's not up to Him to prove Himself to you, you must prove yourself to Him. Do not put God to the test. Seeing God is like seeing the President. I mean you wouldn't expect to see The President of the United States just because you sent Him an email. So how much more difficult do you think it is to see God who is so much greater then the President. I know you must be looking for Him in a dream or omen, but God is all around you, it's up to you to believe He's there. That is part of the test of faith, learning to love your neighbor as though you love God because God exists in your neighbor. And when you learn to truly love then you might see God, and even then there's no guarantee. Also, you have to learn that you can't teeter-toter between the force of good and evil. You have to prove that you really want Him and Him alone. God is there, it's up to you to use devotion to help to get past the obstacles in your way. The angels don't just let anyone approach the "Throne of Thones". If you want to see him you must get past them and to get past them you must prove your devotion. It's like getting past the Secret Service. And be ready, because the angels can get really rough if there's anything in your past that will bring that devotion into question. Trust me, I know first hand. Yes there are New Testament angels who believe in love and compassion, but there are also OT angels who believe in wraith and fury. And on top of that there are fallen angels who serve the devil who will try to lead you away from God. God wants you to come to Him, but the devil is always trying to prove that you don't. That's why devotion is so important. I don't mean to insult you, but you've done a few things that might bring that devotion into question. I'm sure we all have, but if you truly want God you must persuade the angels that he's the only God that is important to you, above all else; your One God. But always know this, God always wants you because he loves you. I do agree that the spirit needs exercise, just like the body and mind. If you don't exercise it, it gets out of shape and that's when you become vulnerable to spiritual disease. Going to church is one form of exercise. Don't let the people in church chase you out. Focus on God. You are there for God. The first step to seeing God requires that you learn to focus your heart so that the radar of your heart beat only sense good and focus out evil. If you seek good you will find good, but if your heart causes you to seek evil you will find evil. And once evil gets there hands on you they won't let go. It's up to you to slip free of their grasp. If your heart only senses God it'll be pure. Evil can't grasp that which is pure, only that which is impure. When you learn to become pure they won't be able to hold you. They won't be able to prevent you from seeing God. That's why the beatitudes say only the pure of heart shall see God. It's like those cartoons where you have an angel on one shoulder and a devil on other. Both are giving you advice, but you can only listen to one. The angel will always tell you the truth, but the devil will always lie. The problem is it's not always easy to distinguish between the good and evil spirit. Not all angels are good; not all sheep are sheep. You must learn to be weary of the wolves in sheep's clothing. Watch out for the serpent in the garden. A pure heart shall set you free. You can't always distinguish such things with your eyes, that's why you must let the Holy Spirit guide you. Don't make the decision on your own. If you tell your heart only to sense the good and focus out the evil, you'll always hear the truth and you'll be able to ignore the lies that shall lead you astray. The devil will always lead you away from God, that's for certain. If you follow this advice you'll be one step closer to finding God. It's not a quick fix, but it's a truth that is taught in the Bible. Like the three monkey's of "See no evil, Hear no evil, Speak no evil" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_monkeys not sensing evil keeps evil from entering you. I'm not saying to ignore evil. You must always remain vigilant against evil, but what I'm saying is don't let evil bait you. Focus you mind like a lens on all the good around you through prayer and meditation. By concentrating your mind on good you invite the good holy spirit into you and strengthen the good spirits within and it is by strengthening the good spirits that you defeat the evil. This is not a quick fix, but it does work. Like dieting and exercising strengthens the body focusing the mind also requires constant practice. In order to gain the strength to defeat evil you must constantly keep the mind strong through prayer and meditation. Once you gain the strength to focus out evil you'll be one step closer to defeating it. just a post of mine from another thread. Longcat help you now. Who is Longcat? Is he a Thundercat? j/k

[juroara]

juroara, that is really inappropriate, even in the context of an example. I mean I can't help but feel you are illustrating your own personal views about black people. Your example is wrong and in poor taste. wrong? it was a real reality this is the mindset that people used to have. they saw NOTHING wrong with enslaving black people. yet they went about their lives, went to church, sang praises and so on. you have to ask yourself HOW can people ignore the obvious. you create reasons to justify it till it sounds right. longcat help us all!!

[juroara]

Seeing God is like seeing the President. I mean you wouldn't expect to see The President of the United States just because you sent Him an email. So how much more difficult do you think it is to see God who is so much greater then the President. I know you must be looking for Him in a dream or omen, but God is all around you, it's up to you to believe He's there. That is part of the test of faith, learning to love your neighbor as though you love God because God exists in your neighbor. And when you learn to truly love then you might see God, and even then there's no guarantee. becareful with using a human as an analogy to God. that tends to just spread the idea that Christians worship a Zeus like figure, sitting far far away from you - rather than an omnipresent God. the bit with the email can also spread the wrong idea - the President is really a busy man to busy to respond to a mere email, or even too important to respond. Is God too busy or too important to respond to a mere prayer? I don't think this is he kind of message that you wanted to send. DV has burned, chewed and spat out christians out very quickly. a good example that I have seen used is a wave and an ocean. can the wave see the ocean?

[Dreamcaster]

I can use other examples besides Hitler. look at how the black people live, compared to the white man, ignorant as animals. look at their bulging muscles, and sturdy backs. look at their skin, dirty and burned by the sun. clearly they are less than white men, and are meant to work in fields - as beasts of burden. the shape of their skull is evidence of their inferior intelligence. we don't even have to feel sorry for making these less than humans work for us, because we are going to save their inferior human souls by introducing them to the gospel. without our intervention of these inferior humans, they were HELL sent. we are actually helping them!! don't doubt the human mind to create logical reasons to justify ANYTHING. wrong? it was a real reality this is the mindset that people used to have. they saw NOTHING wrong with enslaving black people. yet they went about their lives, went to church, sang praises and so on. you have to ask yourself HOW can people ignore the obvious. you create reasons to justify it till it sounds right. longcat help us all!! Wrong... , your original quote made no mention to slavery and more over, it wasn't even in the past tense. So no I'm not wrong. You even say that black people are ignorant as animals. I mean the way it's phrased it could easily be mistaken as your own opinion. If you were using slavery as an example you should have made that clearer. becareful with using a human as an analogy to God. that tends to just spread the idea that Christians worship a Zeus like figure, sitting far far away from you - rather than an omnipresent God. the bit with the email can also spread the wrong idea - the President is really a busy man to busy to respond to a mere email, or even too important to respond. Is God too busy or too important to respond to a mere prayer? I don't think this is he kind of message that you wanted to send. DV has burned, chewed and spat out christians out very quickly. a good example that I have seen used is a wave and an ocean. can the wave see the ocean? It was a testament to how great God is or more specifically how much greater God is. "the bit with the email can also spread the wrong idea - the President is really a busy man to busy to respond to a mere email, or even too important to respond. Is God too busy or too important to respond to a mere prayer? " Are you saying God isn't as important as the President? Besides the president does respond to the masses. He may not stop and read every individual email, but ultimately through democracy the masses are eventually heard and the President responds appropriately through legislation. Whose to say God doesn't work in the same way? In the same way God does respond to our prayers. He may not call each individual through some intense psychedelic experience, but he does respond if we're paying attention. See, there are holes in your argument as well. I see what your saying, but I did try to address the idea of God's presence in our life when I said, " ...but God is all around you, it's up to you to believe He's there." Besides people don't actually try to communicate with the ocean, but I get what your saying. But it's an OK analogy I guess, but I think my analogy got the point across a little better. But based on that premise of your analogy, then the individual is the wave and the ocean is the larger collective reality in the form of existence (aka God?) thus when the many individual existences come together they form God. That means, based on your analogy that God must exist within each one of us; right. But how many waves does it take to make an ocean? Further more, your analogy doesn't fit cause it implies that God can only be as vast as an ocean. But can't God also be as small as a wave if he wanted? If i were to take a portion of the ocean and put it in a cup would it be any less then God? So whose to say that the wave can't see the ocean. If a wave can be God and if the wave can see the wave next to it, then can the wave then see God? God has many possible forms, wave or ocean. A man can see God if he lives his life right. In the same right, based on your analogy, a wave can see the ocean (God); if it lives it's "life" right. And of course I didn't even address the fact that a wave can't see. See you can pick apart any argument if your try long enough. It's up to you to see the glass as half full.

[apachama]

To be clear, there's nothing wrong with Catholicism. It may not be right for you, but that doesn't mean it's flawed. Maybe your heart just wasn't as devoted to Catholicism as much as you might have believed. This is an argument some Christians put forward to explain apostasy. But it doesn't. Meeting God may be a privalege, and sin may stand in the way, but I have had a similar experience to Juroara. Not being a Christian can give you a purpose, new experiences, new ways. I think I was a devoted Christian. It was something I struggled against abandoning and still consider from time to time, as I've said. But the world outside of the church is lovely. Having faith in the God of Christianity would also mean abandoning the experiences I've had that make me think to the contrary. I'm always willing to consider the possibility of radical change, but a change from where there seems to be the possibility of worship and the divine to where there isn't any indication of it for me personally seems like the wrong choice to me. Imagine if I told you to go worship Krishna, and I told you probably feel any inclination to worship Krishna. In fact you will get seemingly religious messages telling you thats its not right for you. But that you should press on because getting an indication that you are doing the right thing is a privalege not a right, and you must have faith in Him and devote yourself utterly to Him on no evidence first. You would probably think me very strange. Faith is a two way street you see. Look at the Bible, would Paul have converted without the presence of God? Would the apostles have been so successful without the Holy Spirit? You can only have faith in something if you have some reason to desire it to start off with. If there is Hell, it stands to reason God would offer a little help to avoid it. Even if thats no more than not letting there be any obvious signs against Him.

[Taosaur]

Wrong... , your original quote made no mention to slavery and more over, it wasn't even in the past tense. So no I'm not wrong. You even say that black people are ignorant as animals. I mean the way it's phrased it could easily be mistaken as your own opinion. If you were using slavery as an example you should have made that clearer. It was pretty obvious to the rest of us what she was doing there... Shocking at first, but it gets your attention and then you figure it out further along; a fairly effective technique for what she had in mind, I'd say.

[Chase P.]

Nobody knows if there is a God and nobody knows how he is. Just live your life to the fullest. Keep as much away from sin as you can, pray once in a while (God doesn't care if you go to church as long as you try to believe.),and have fun while you are still on the earth. If he needs you he will use you. and when you die i guess you will find out, but intil then hold on to your belief. I understand why you don't beleve people who belive wemon came from ribs from the first man just because wemon have an extra rib. God Bless.