Thread: Doubting my Faith

Why believe in God? There's no proof. Why believe in love? There's no proof. Why believe in friendship? There's no proof. Why believe in your own potential? There's no proof.

Become an atheist, lose all your beliefs, live your life the good way!

Can you say strawman?

Here's a hint: only the first part of that is accurate. The rest is bullshit and a pathetic strawman argument.

Originally Posted by really

All you want me to do is adopt a viewpoint where God seems to be false. What you have to remember is that "looking objectively" is still looking. This is actually not an objective matter, but a spiritual matter.

What looking objectively means is that you look at the idea taking in account only the facts and not letting your opinions cloud your judgement.

Originally Posted by really

Please, thank God that your soccer game even exists.

Why? How do I know there's a God? The big bang made everything, not a fairy.

Originally Posted by really

Thank God for your breath,

For this I thank my respiratory system.

Originally Posted by really

thank God for your freedom.

I guess I would go back and thank the founding fathers here...

Originally Posted by really

Thank God for your Life.

parents

Originally Posted by really

Give thanks. Even if you are better off than others - they will still make their way to God.

How do you know this? Who told you?

Originally Posted by really

Who cares about your soccer game? You do, and who cares about what credit from who? You do, or for better terms, the ego does. The prideful ego. It doesn't realize that without God, nothing would exist. It thinks it is God, of course. Think of this Context, the grand Context that God is Reality itself.

This is where you are becoming confused. Reality is... reality. Subtract god from that equation. We still have reality. We are still existing.

Do you think God made the universe? Did the bible tell you this?

Originally Posted by really

Do you think a God with infinite power and presence needs any demands? Do you think an all-Loving God would be troubled by someone's opinion?

He's all loving? Fuck that. Since when does all loving mean my grandparents had to die last year? That my brother got jumped a couple days ago?

Also, justify Hell.

Originally Posted by really

My God is my Self, Buddha, Universe - all the same to me. The Context of my existence, the divinity and oneness of everything. This is essentially the same Truth that underlies the great religions and the great mystics/spiritual teachers.

You are yourself. The universe is the universe. There doesn't need to be a god there. The universe works fine without a magic man.

How would life be different without your god?

Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

It's still in debate weather or not that blob exsists. If it does, then it's incredibly healthy

God made the opertunity available, created you, gave you the intelligence to utilize skills and put the EMTS on earth. by the way, God has no real shape or definition. (excluding the 33yr old shape that was christ.)

Christ was not God. And He didn't put EMTs on Earth. People decided to study what was here and see if we could help people. God...does...not...deserve...credit...here.

If you are a believer then God is the one that created the cow. evolution? you mean that cycle that started through nearly pure chance and random coincidence. (such as asteroid impacts)
'
I mean as in that whole experiment these two guys did. They recreated the environment from way back then, before my grandfather, whn the earth came out of the oven (Like cookies, which i happen to want right now). Then they put electrisity through it (Lightning.) and what came out? Protiens and life sustaining/organic materials, which over time evolved into the "superior" race of hyoomanz.

Religion and christ doesn't teach discrimination agaisnt Jews, Blacks or other minority groups. It does teach, however, that homosexuality is a Sin. Along with murder and rape and several other things that a majority of american society consider wrong. (homosexuality isn't anywhere near as bad as murder or rape.)

No, they love people who don't believe in their savior. They love them enough for Jesus to come back and kick the asses of the Jews who didn't convert. Right...no discrimination.

your right, God shouldn't have expected us to use self control or try to restrain ourselves. that was mean. (note the sarcasm)

If He wanted us to listen, and not have some fun at night, He shouldn't have made reproduction fun.

learn about the subject you disagree with before you assume you know it. God doesn't send you to hell for not obeying him. You go to hell for not believing. This is a way more complex topic wich, in and of itself, could be debated about for days.

Believing in Him is something He said. You go to Hell if you don't do it. Hence, you don't do what He says, you get thrown in a pit.

God doesn't ever expect you to thank him... people do it because there, well, thankful.

You got me there. :bravo: (Not sarcastically there.)

There...And thanks Grod for agreeing with me. It's like, dude, give yourself some credit.

And don't ignore my abuse point. Why does God not stop abuse? Tell me, I would like to know. Most Christian agree with violence being bad...so you guys obviously wont do it. So...why doesn't God, the one with the power, stop it?

Originally Posted by Grod

What looking objectively means is that you look at the idea taking in account only the facts and not letting your opinions cloud your judgement.

Why? How do I know there's a God? The big bang made everything, not a fairy.

For this I thank my respiratory system.

I guess I would go back and thank the founding fathers here...

parents


How do you know this? Who told you?



This is where you are becoming confused. Reality is... reality. Subtract god from that equation. We still have reality. We are still existing.

Do you think God made the universe? Did the bible tell you this?



He's all loving? Fuck that. Since when does all loving mean my grandparents had to die last year? That my brother got jumped a couple days ago?

Also, justify Hell.



You are yourself. The universe is the universe. There doesn't need to be a god there. The universe works fine without a magic man.

How would life be different without your god?

Grod, I love you.

Originally Posted by Grod

What looking objectively means is that you look at the idea taking in account only the facts and not letting your opinions cloud your judgement.

Facts don't tell me about truth, truth is subjective. In the spiritual path, you would also realize the futility and inaccuracy of your judgments also. It is certain that there is a context of existing, and we know that by greater subjective truth, not by opinion.

Originally Posted by Grod

Why? How do I know there's a God? The big bang made everything, not a fairy.

For this I thank my respiratory system.

I guess I would go back and thank the founding fathers here...

parents

All these things are part of God. You can talk all day long, thanking different aspects of the world, but that is related to cause effect, which is a limited understanding. I.e. the universe has a source - God, it is not caused by endless events. Thank the source of the Universe. Give thanks for this very moment.

Originally Posted by Grod

How do you know this? Who told you?

I know about it through spiritual understanding. Teachers teach me, I trust them. That is up to me.

Originally Posted by Grod

This is where you are becoming confused. Reality is... reality. Subtract god from that equation. We still have reality. We are still existing.

You are yourself. The universe is the universe. There doesn't need to be a god there. The universe works fine without a magic man.

Right, God exists whether you believe in Him or not. Likewise, you exist whether you believe you exist or not. (God is not a magic man/fairy)

You can "subtract God from the equation" and still comprehend spiritual truth. As long as you accept that the total Reality is divine in nature and in perfect harmony with all that is.

Essentially, without the term/name "God", you tend to just think reality is "just reality" as if there is nothing special, beautiful or mysterious about it. One would then go about their day completely oblivious to their very Self, blind to Everything, shadowed in illusion. That's the typical way into ignorance. Lets make an analogy:

Person A says that flower is beautiful - that is a subjective truth.
Person B responds, saying "that flower is just a flower" - that is basically an objective fact (different context to "spiritual acceptance").
Person A says, "Do you believe in Beauty? Beauty made this flower. It is perfect. How it grows, leans toward the sun, its vibrant petals, it is unique..."
Person B responds, "No, a combination of discrete things made the flower; seed, soil, sunlight and water made the flower..."
Person A replies, "Essentially, you have missed the point. Facts are not truths. Nature is beautiful, everything is natural. It is one thing to describe how nature works, and another to admire and love what it is."

Originally Posted by Grod

Do you think God made the universe? Did the bible tell you this?

I understand the concept of the Reality of God, the source of the universe, and how it is beyond time and space, and therefore God did not "make it". It has always been, only in different forms. That's not from the Bible, and I don't read all of the Bible anyway; it's not necessary.

Originally Posted by Grod

He's all loving? Fuck that. Since when does all loving mean my grandparents had to die last year? That my brother got jumped a couple days ago?

Oh yeah! You probably don't believe in eternal life do you? And the truth that you can never truly be hurt. While you think you're a body, you seem to be in pain. This is the spiritual world, not the material world.

Don't worry about your grandparents or brother, God is always taking care of them. They are eternally blessed in spirit. We grow from experience and learning. We suffer the vicissitudes of being human, yet we can find ways out into absolute peace if we're ready and willing to be so.

By the way, you know physical death is part of physical life, that's that. Your spirit is unaffected though.

Originally Posted by Grod

Also, justify Hell.

An extremely low state of mind/awareness, devoid of love and understanding.

Originally Posted by Grod

How would life be different without your god?

I have no idea.

"Love" and "beauty" are not arguments for God, and neither is "I feel God" an argument for God. The mentally ill feel a lot of things too, that doesn't mean we have to respect their opinions or accept their claims to be true.

If you really think God is a truth in your own point of view then stop arguing for him/it; one simply does not argue "truths" which are entirely subjective in nature.

Originally Posted by hungrymanz

"Love" and "beauty" are not arguments for God, and neither is "I feel God" an argument for God. The mentally ill feel a lot of things too, that doesn't mean we have to respect their opinions or accept their claims to be true.

It wasn't a very good analogy, but love and beauty are qualities of divinity and harmony. These aren't emotional or personal feelings. The point is that they are the radiance of our inner being. If they were opinions and emotions, they would not be universal truths.

As one begins to surrender and give up all their cherished opinions and judgments, does harmony abide. It is because the positionalities formed by the ego are flawed as a product of perception itself, yet they can be seen as "relatively true". But when there is harmony, there is alignment and love itself.

Originally Posted by hungrymanz

If you really think God is a truth in your own point of view then stop arguing for him/it; one simply does not argue "truths" which are entirely subjective in nature.

It is a truth to me, but not according to my "own point of view". God/Self is the core of one's existence, so whether it is a radical subjective understanding or not, is not the point.

Religious folk and everyone else really, just go to www.zeitgeistmovie.com and watch "Zeitgeist: The Movie", on the right.

I personally feel that this movie really disproves God and Jesus.

The rest of the movie discusses 9/11 as an inside job and the Federal Banking System. Good stuff.

Anyone that is capable of logical reasoning would have ruled out the existence of a god like "Jesus" a long time ago. I don't mean to put down your faith - but let's be realistic, religion is nothing more than exxagerated stories and false claims that have been taken to an extreme level. Religion was the product of a lack of understanding where humans came from. We know now where we came from. The only reason religion still exists is because the people that own this fucking world knows that it keeps millions of people occupied and their minds off what might interfere with their own greedy self-interests. That, and people are making cash hand over fist on religions like christianity. Religion is a VERY powerful tool. Religion is used as a cash-grab and a lullaby to not question authority in modern world.

SpecialInterests, apart from the seeming fallacies and religious dogma, you have completely ignored the aspect of spiritual reality. The spiritual reality is the essential foundation, much like all the major religions.


Also, the Zeitgeist movie is not worth mentioning. While it may seem convincing, it has many unbacked and false claims; many criticisms and flaws - especially in the first part. These "consipiracy" theory compilations are very misleading. For one example, in the first part of the movie, a speaker says:

"…when it comes to bullshit, big time majorly bullshit, you have to stand in all, the all time champion of all time exagerate claim - Religion. Think about it, religion has actually convinced people that there is invisible man living in the sky, watching everything you do, every minute of every day. An invisible man has a special list of 10 things he doesn’t want you to do, and if you do any of these 10 things he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anger where he will send you to live for suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever till the end of time...but he loves you, he loves you and he needs money!"

Actually, the speaker here is the one who has exaggerated his misinterpretations of Christianity. All that has happened is that the depictions of religion were taken out of context.
- The last part about money is not true. God, by definition, needs nothing.
- The "invisible man living in the sky" is a fallacious and exaggerated view, mainly derived from the way the scripts have been languaged and personified.
- God hasn't prepared any "places" such as hell, which is the place of Satan, however it still has no actual reality in the world of God and is merely the realm of ignorance and self-created sufferring.

Originally Posted by really

SpecialInterests, apart from the seeming fallacies and religious dogma, you have completely ignored the aspect of spiritual reality. The spiritual reality is the essential foundation, much like all the major religions.


Also, the Zeitgeist movie is not worth mentioning. While it may seem convincing, it has many unbacked and false claims; many criticisms and flaws - especially in the first part. These "consipiracy" theory compilations are very misleading. For one example, in the first part of the movie, a speaker says:

"…when it comes to bullshit, big time majorly bullshit, you have to stand in all, the all time champion of all time exagerate claim - Religion. Think about it, religion has actually convinced people that there is invisible man living in the sky, watching everything you do, every minute of every day. An invisible man has a special list of 10 things he doesn’t want you to do, and if you do any of these 10 things he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anger where he will send you to live for suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever till the end of time...but he loves you, he loves you and he needs money!"

Actually, the speaker here is the one who has exaggerated his misinterpretations of Christianity. All that has happened is that the depictions of religion were taken out of context.
- The last part about money is not true. God, by definition, needs nothing.
- The "invisible man living in the sky" is a fallacious and exaggerated view, mainly derived from the way the scripts have been languaged and personified.
- God hasn't prepared any "places" such as hell, which is the place of Satan, however it still has no actual reality in the world of God and is merely the realm of ignorance and self-created sufferring.

It was a joke, to make fun of religion. Not God. That speaker is George Carlin - he's a comedian.
He was talking about organized religion, how the church always asks for money, how they pay no taxes and make billions and yet always need more.

And I think the Zeitgeist movie deserves a lot of credit. It made a lot of good points about the myth of Jesus and other Gods.
I'm personally not against the thought of spiritual worlds, entities, ideas, etc. I support it. And that movie makes no comments about spirituality, only Jesus himself and organized religion, which is what I too am against.
Spirituality is another discussion.

I'm doubting my faith in atheism. Someone help me.

I wonder why these threads keep popping up, considering that everyone in here (whether theist or atheist) knows their argument to be flawed in some way or another.

I had originally written another one of my patented rants, but I erased it all in favor of a more simplified message.

To the Theists: Prove it. Prove that there is a higher being.

But wait, there's more!

To the Atheists: Prove it. Prove that there is no higher being.

That oughtta keep 'em busy for a while.

And I have one more message that applies to both sides:

Don't think that you've got it all figured out. There's still so much about the way the universe works that mankind has yet to figure out; that said, for one to think that they know what's what about the universe is to have a stone for a brain.

Peace, cracka's.

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

It was a joke, to make fun of religion. Not God. That speaker is George Carlin - he's a comedian.
He was talking about organized religion, how the church always asks for money, how they pay no taxes and make billions and yet always need more.

You can tell he was a comedian, and that he's making fun of religion, of course. But I don't see the point, there are a lot of these kind of debates, and quite often I can't tell whether they're just mocking religion or if they actually disbelieve the religious/spiritual understanding altogether.

To the Atheists: Prove it. Prove that there is no higher being.

Imagine how much worse our justice systems would be if they demanded complete proof that everyone else apart from the accused was innocent before giving a verdict of guilty.

Negative proof is essentially impossible and an irrational demand. Thanks for playing.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Don't think that you've got it all figured out. There's still so much about the way the universe works that mankind has yet to figure out; that said, for one to think that they know what's what about the universe is to have a stone for a brain.

If not atheists, certainly anyone who believes in science will readily admit there's lot we don't know yet. But certainly the fact you can read this post is testament to the power of science (and proof that it works, and constantly works when we test it daily). Part of the problem I have with religion anyway is that it makes claims of knowledge it cannot have.

Spiritual Reality? You talk like spiritual reality is actual reality. Stop deluding yourself. Humans are physical beings. There is nothing spiritual about us... other than the spiritual residue you leave in the toilet after you relieve yourself from bowl movements. Is that what you talk about?

Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

Spiritual Reality? You talk like spiritual reality is actual reality. Stop deluding yourself. Humans are physical beings. There is nothing spiritual about us... other than the spiritual residue you leave in the toilet after you relieve yourself from bowl movements. Is that what you talk about?

I took a crap earlier today, it felt nice! it smelt, but what do you expect, good smelling poop? reminds me of a guy at my work who was like "it stinks in here" and sprayed the air in the area where we were, i was about to tell him he's a moron, it's a bathroom, is it supposed to smell like flowers?

really,

Your antagonizing nature is becoming incredibly frustrating. The way you are handling debates and arguments is the reason why civil discussion is so ridiculously impossible and results in incredible frustration with so many people.

Here is why;

You do not know that God exists. Whether you want to fervently believe it it or not is up to you. Unfortunately, no matter how passionate you are about the idea, or how much sense it makes to you, that does not mean it is absolute.

The fact is that you cannot prove it in anyway.

You offer no way for anyone to prove your arguments wrong, and yet you somehow believe that to mean all the more that you are right. (Because the perfect is unfalsifiable!). If you had any understanding of logic or reason, you would understand that the unfalsifiable is created from sophomoric nonsense equivalent to the question "If God can do anything, can he create a rock he cannot lift?"

It is stupid because you can use the exact same reasoning to ask, "If you can do anything, can you draw a four-sided triangle?" which is obviously impossible because it is then no longer a four sided triangle. The examples are prolific but the point is that your unfalsifiable arguments are perpetuated by your bias opinion.

Your forcing opinion on others on what you imagine to be God offers no room for mutual growth. Don't you get tired of the impasse arguments except from people that agree with you?


I really despise these conversations because it always turns into showing the person that they are not using reasoning that can offer incentives to those that do not believe in what you believe.

You may fervently believe that God exists whether we believe it or not, but that says absolutely nothing about what God is nor proves that Gods exists at all.

The point is that I could use the same arguments you're using for God for my imaginary friend.

If you can't offer a way to prove yourself wrong, then you are not offering a conversation - you're lecturing. If you're lecturing under the pretense that you have something to offer the world - you're pretentious. If you're also thinking that others "just don't get it" - you're arrogant.

If you can't offer a discussion, then go preach to those that agree with you.

~

Originally Posted by Howie

In most aspects I am on the side of your belief. But I don't think anyone should be do pompous in their view towards anything.
One could conclude you are close minded no?

You're on his side? i always figured u were on the other side by your posts.

Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

Spiritual Reality? You talk like spiritual reality is actual reality. Stop deluding yourself. Humans are physical beings. There is nothing spiritual about us... other than the spiritual residue you leave in the toilet after you relieve yourself from bowl movements. Is that what you talk about?

In most aspects I am on the side of your belief. But I don't think anyone should be do pompous in their view towards anything.
One could conclude you are close minded no?

You make a good point O'nus.
Much of what you say really is on the surface made to look factual in nature But it really is ambiguous, vague in nature.

Do you feel you are enlightened?
What are your thoughts on Enlightenment?

Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

Spiritual Reality? You talk like spiritual reality is actual reality. Stop deluding yourself. Humans are physical beings. There is nothing spiritual about us... other than the spiritual residue you leave in the toilet after you relieve yourself from bowl movements. Is that what you talk about?

Is it not the Reality of the Spiritual? That's all it's about.

Originally Posted by O'nus

really,

Your antagonizing nature is becoming incredibly frustrating. The way you are handling debates and arguments is the reason why civil discussion is so ridiculously impossible and results in incredible frustration with so many people.

If it seems to be "causing frustration", why not ignore me? Or if you have a stronger mind, admit that you have chosen to be frustrated, and instead choose to be happy.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Here is why;

You do not know that God exists. Whether you want to fervently believe it it or not is up to you. Unfortunately, no matter how passionate you are about the idea, or how much sense it makes to you, that does not mean it is absolute.

The fact is that you cannot prove it in anyway.

No, you can't prove any of that, so you can't be sure of what I know either. What makes you think you know what I know, having identified relative truth?

So it comes down to this: All humans express and act according to what they believe to be good and true to them. Surrender relative judgments.

Originally Posted by O'nus

You offer no way for anyone to prove your arguments wrong, and yet you somehow believe that to mean all the more that you are right. (Because the perfect is unfalsifiable!). If you had any understanding of logic or reason, you would understand that the unfalsifiable is created from sophomoric nonsense equivalent to the question "If God can do anything, can he create a rock he cannot lift?"

Well actually I can answer that question, but it is a misinterpretation of the Omnipotent. God is not somebody who lifts rocks in the first place, nor can there be any flaw whatsoever if He is all-inclusive to existence. Instead of trying to "prove me wrong", why not try to intuit what I'm saying?

Originally Posted by O'nus

It is stupid because you can use the exact same reasoning to ask, "If you can do anything, can you draw a four-sided triangle?" which is obviously impossible because it is then no longer a four sided triangle. The examples are prolific but the point is that your unfalsifiable arguments are perpetuated by your bias opinion.

What of my posts equates to such reasoning?

Originally Posted by O'nus

Your forcing opinion on others on what you imagine to be God offers no room for mutual growth. Don't you get tired of the impasse arguments except from people that agree with you?

How could it be tiring? All I do is challenge the perceptual reasoning and show how there is validity and beauty in life. I don't care if you disagree, however I may respond if you ask questions, or argue if there is major misinterpretations. But, in time this too will be surrendered.

Originally Posted by O'nus

I really despise these conversations because it always turns into showing the person that they are not using reasoning that can offer incentives to those that do not believe in what you believe.

I really admire these discussions because they can sometimes help the persons understand what they're complaining about and in turn calm their seeming frustrations.

Originally Posted by O'nus

The point is that I could use the same arguments you're using for God for my imaginary friend.

Gee, I didn't expect you to have an imaginary friend, O'nus!

So what kind of arguments? I can already guess that they'd be far out of context and misleading.

Originally Posted by O'nus

If you can't offer a way to prove yourself wrong, then you are not offering a conversation - you're lecturing. If you're lecturing under the pretense that you have something to offer the world - you're pretentious. If you're also thinking that others "just don't get it" - you're arrogant.

If I can't offer a way to prove myself right/wrong, I am humbled. At the same time, I am faithful. If I discuss these issues as a way of offering information to other members and while respecting beliefs, then that is sharing, that is a discussion. Please stop dramatizing.

Originally Posted by really

If it seems to be "causing frustration", why not ignore me? Or if you have a stronger mind, admit that you have chosen to be frustrated, and instead choose to be happy.

The point is to have a discussion, but you're right, why bother having a discussion with you then? Hence why I am making the point of why I would choose not to and offer that reasoning to you.

No, you can't prove any of that, so you can't be sure of what I know either. What makes you think you know what I know, having identified relative truth?

I can't prove what? That you can't prove your Gods existence? I can prove it in the fact that you have not proven it. Furthermore, if you could prove it, then the entire world would bow before your benevolence.

So it comes down to this: All humans express and act according to what they believe to be good and true to them. Surrender relative judgments.

True, but that's not my point. Just because your subjective judgment on what God is may make complete sense to you, that does not mean it is true nor actual nor real or anything else. It is just as real as something imaginary.

Well actually I can answer that question, but it is a misinterpretation of the Omnipotent. God is not somebody who lifts rocks in the first place, nor can there be any flaw whatsoever if He is all-inclusive to existence. Instead of trying to "prove me wrong", why not try to intuit what I'm saying?

I am not trying to prove you wrong, I am trying to consistently explain to you the flaws in your reasoning. That major one is that you enforce unfalsifiable arguments. This is synonymous to fundamentalist religious zealots to even intelligent people like Freud.

I am losing confidence that you understand the problem if you cannot offer falsifiability.

How could it be tiring? All I do is challenge the perceptual reasoning and show how there is validity and beauty in life. I don't care if you disagree, however I may respond if you ask questions, or argue if there is major misinterpretations. But, in time this too will be surrendered.

You don't challenge anything - you're just preaching and offering conjecture. Are you reading what I am saying? You offer no incentive to others to agree to what you say.

If you don't care if others disagree, then why the hell are you talking? That very paragraph is non sequitor - you say you challenge perceptual reason and try to show it, but then pretend like you don't care if others agree and play it up like you're modest. All you do is prove yourself to be pretentious.

I really admire these discussions because they can sometimes help the persons understand what they're complaining about and in turn calm their seeming frustrations.

Unfortunately, your success with this will be highly correlated with those that share the same beliefs as you.

~

How can this eternal moment be falsifiable?

You prove God by participating in the Now.

The irony being, even in denying God you undeniably embrace it.

Drop all assumptions about anything else but right now...

There in the silence is all the proof you need.

When one becomes wholly empty they become whole...

The deception of division...

Originally Posted by O'nus

The point is to have a discussion, but you're right, why bother having a discussion with you then? Hence why I am making the point of why I would choose not to and offer that reasoning to you.

Please be clear, I don't understand this.

Originally Posted by O'nus

I can't prove what? That you can't prove your Gods existence? I can prove it in the fact that you have not proven it. Furthermore, if you could prove it, then the entire world would bow before your benevolence.

What's if I do not wish to prove it (and by your standards), as I am aware I cannot?

Originally Posted by O'nus

True, but that's not my point. Just because your subjective judgment on what God is may make complete sense to you, that does not mean it is true nor actual nor real or anything else. It is just as real as something imaginary.

It is true to me, and I describe briefly how. I also mention what does not depend on my views, i.e. actual religious/spiritual facts and how they relate to consciousness.

Originally Posted by O'nus

I am not trying to prove you wrong, I am trying to consistently explain to you the flaws in your reasoning. That major one is that you enforce unfalsifiable arguments. This is synonymous to fundamentalist religious zealots to even intelligent people like Freud.

Once again, you say my reasoning is flawed, yet you don't show me where. Any quotes, at least?

Originally Posted by O'nus

You don't challenge anything - you're just preaching and offering conjecture. Are you reading what I am saying? You offer no incentive to others to agree to what you say.

According to you, that is. Not everyone is motivated the same way, and again, nor is it my purpose to "make" everyone agree with me.

Originally Posted by O'nus

If you don't care if others disagree, then why the hell are you talking? That very paragraph is non sequitor - you say you challenge perceptual reason and try to show it, but then pretend like you don't care if others agree and play it up like you're modest. All you do is prove yourself to be pretentious.

Well, the typical disagreements don't really affect me because I see through them. I'm not going to argue endlessly, unless there is some direction and purpose. I've been in many threads where people take the ad hominem stance on me. This doesn't affect me, but I'd prefer they at least had some genuine interest.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Unfortunately, your success with this will be highly correlated with those that share the same beliefs as you.

"Success", I don't believe is our concern. We are usually not posting sarcastic questions about God and whining about irrelevant imaginings.

Then again, people with similar beliefs always stick together, no surprise there.



The impression I have from you is that I have to be able to prove something to you so you can believe it, and that if I don't, I am pretentious and should cease speaking. You seem to generalize as if everyone thinks as you do.