Thread: A challenge for the Atheist

What did the poor shellfish do?

That's blaringly obvious.... Shellfish has been and will always be sinfully delicious...

Originally Posted by Avalon Jr.

i want you to challenge my faith

This is what I don't approve.


First of all, I am not any theist. I hate classification. I am a human, if you will.
I don't hate religions, they server their role if done properly. Faith is good for those who are too weak to go on alone, or who seek comfort.

Yet what I cannot accept is what man has done to religion, for different faiths to be twisted into something that doesn't resemble anything religion is supposed to.

A little bit for myself. Why I am not keen to oppose any religion, I usually have to defend myself with words because religious people rarely leave me alone. I've been called heretic, pagan, offered salvation, wanted dead, promised that I will serve my afterlife in eternal damnation etc.

Anyways, I am spirtual, not religious. That's how I define myself. I have no reason whatsoever to debate if there are gods or deities. There is no proof, nobody has a proof. What I am interested of is WHY do people follow their gods. What is their motive? As I said before, I don't oppose real faith, which to me means *PERSONAL FAITH*. If you keep it inside you and not try to convert everyone you see, or keep blabbering about other people's faiths then I am fine with it. Usually, talking about religion is the main mistake..

If there is a God, or gods. Why you follow them? Are mere words or promises enough to convince you that you will server this being? Are you serving that being just for sake of rewards? Out of fear? Has some deity appeared before you and offered you something? Or are you just listening words spoken by a human?

Originally Posted by DotheDishes

The reality in which we live is the same how else could we share eachothers thoughts.

TRU

Originally Posted by DotheDishes

A lot of which we do is not controlled by or mind it is controlled by god.

ARE THEY ONE IN THE SAME? in all reality

Originally Posted by love2dream

TRU



ARE THEY ONE IN THE SAME? in all reality

Sorry, what?

one's mind and god

where does it take you

Originally Posted by love2dream

one's mind and god

where does it take you

You can't just say that anecdote and then run off with it in your imagination. It is easy to imagine God as consciousness and if God is manifested as the Mind - but elaborate. What else is God then? What are the limits? How does this affect death? Do you have free will still? Are you an individual if God is your mind? Are you still able to make decisions if God is mind? How powerful is it? Where did it start?

All of life's questions cannot be answered with a vague anecdote.

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

All of life's questions cannot be answered with a vague anecdote.

This I know, sorry I just didn't feel like elaborating. Usually if I get a vague question I'll give a vague response, ya know? But trust me it does go on and on and on and on and well you know about infiniti...that's my symbol. Let it take you, and that's how long I'd be typing if I tried to elaborate, and sometimes I get caught up in my head with thoughts and they just seem easier to stay there then to try to describe it to someone. Maybe that's lazy of me and I'm glad that I just thought like that...it just made a difference

Adios!

i want you to challenge my faith, and tell me what is wrong with it.

You believe in a being whose existence is not only contrary to logic, they possess qualities that are paradoxical when summed together, and you also have no evidence it exists.

In other words, you believe in Santa Claus.

Originally Posted by Daniel Danciu

Quote:
i want you to challenge my faith, and tell me what is wrong with it.

I don't care to challenge your faith for what you believe is what you believe, but tell me; if you do not believe in a higher power...what do you believe in? if anything, and if nothing then wtf, how are you here?

I will challenge that.

Originally Posted by love2dream

I don't care to challenge your faith for what you believe is what you believe, but tell me; if you do not believe in a higher power...what do you believe in? if anything, and if nothing then wtf, how are you here?

I will challenge that.

I believe in that which I am certain of. What do you believe in?

Originally Posted by love2dream

...but tell me; if you do not believe in a higher power...what do you believe in? if anything, and if nothing then wtf, how are you here?

Evolution.



~

Originally Posted by O'nus

Evolution.



~

Lovely.

Originally Posted by love2dream

I don't care to challenge your faith for what you believe is what you believe, but tell me; if you do not believe in a higher power...what do you believe in? if anything, and if nothing then wtf, how are you here?

I will challenge that.

Challenge this. I believe that human beings are capable of doing moral, right things without having to be controlled by fear of punishment or hope of reward. I also believe that all humans have a right to free will, ESPECIALLY when it comes to their own minds.

Now lets judge your beliefs. How pure and sensical are they?

Originally Posted by O'nus

All of life's questions cannot be answered with a vague anecdote.

The most essential of life's questions cannot be answered with words.

Originally Posted by really

The most essential of life's questions cannot be answered with words.

So then why offer the anecdote or talk about it at all? Here we are again.

~

Originally Posted by love2dream

I don't care to challenge your faith for what you believe is what you believe, but tell me; if you do not believe in a higher power...what do you believe in? if anything, and if nothing then wtf, how are you here?

I will challenge that.

Essentially, you are going with the argument, that everything must have a creator, correct? How could man exist if he doesn't believe he wasn't created by anything? Thats your thinking.

Well ok, where did the God that created us come from? Who/what created whatever created God? Who created that? Eventually, somewhere down the line, something had to "just exist" right?

If we can accept that something somewhere just existed, then why can't the religious just accept the fact that its possible for the base atom or particle to have just "existed" without the use of God?

Originally Posted by O'nus

So then why offer the anecdote or talk about it at all? Here we are again.

~

Obviously, you think that everything must be concrete, linear and logical to hold any purpose for you. Unfortunately, with these parameters, you will not discover anything greater than what the scientific paradigm holds. Thus, you have yet again rejected the greater meaning.

Anecdotes, koans, proverbs, psalms, spiritual teachings/teachers, doctrines, (etc.) are typically not for the intellect. They are for spiritual purposes and intentions. They do not "answer" questions or formulate a "proof" for the skeptic or intellectual to analyze. Instead, they can inspire and help one on a spiritual journey, which in growth and knowledge does not follow sequential logic. Concepts are not the Real "answers" or Truth.

I havn't read the posts above me because i cba to do that.
But i am not atheist i am my own relegion, I don't understand why some people have to create such arguements over things that could very well possibly be make belief. Why try to preach to people, About something that happened well over 500 years ago. No one is sure what happaned, Everyone should be able to do what they want, The world is for everyone.. They claim god created all of us, But why does he create the people that go crazy and kill everything in sight? Why does he kill people off the earth in such harsh ways, Believe it or not.. God is a being of hate, That is all this world is made of, Power and Hate. When the power of love becomes stronger than the love of power, we will have peace If gays want to be gays, Let them live their life.. It is only their decision.. If they are choosing that way and if you christians claim they will go to "hell" that is their own decision.. I do not go to church, I do not read that book called the "bible" Send me to hell, Because meh? Im a sinner.. Satan ill be waiting..

Originally Posted by really

Obviously, you think that everything must be concrete, linear and logical to hold any purpose for you. Unfortunately, with these parameters, you will not discover anything greater than what the scientific paradigm holds. Thus, you have yet again rejected the greater meaning.

You said it cannot be discussed with words. If you are going to discuss it with people, how are you doing it? With words, no? How can you discuss it with others if you cannot express it properly at all? Is it even possible? You say yourself it is a personal revelation, so how can you discuss it? It's just rapport, sympathy, empathy, and acknowledgment that is left for discussion.

Obviously you are ignorant to my position if you think of me as such a cold empiricist.

Anecdotes, koans, proverbs, psalms, spiritual teachings/teachers, doctrines, (etc.) are typically not for the intellect. They are for spiritual purposes and intentions. They do not "answer" questions or formulate a "proof" for the skeptic or intellectual to analyze. Instead, they can inspire and help one on a spiritual journey, which in growth and knowledge does not follow sequential logic. Concepts are not the Real "answers" or Truth.

Don't lump anecdotes and proverbs with teachings, doctrines, and teachers. They are not on the same level and I am certainly not discrediting them.

Furthermore, are you saying that those that believe those things are not the intellect..?

Do you really think that I go about looking for only the perceivable and concrete and hold it to be the only truth we can know? Must I emphasize utility and pragmatism again? Come on now, really, you know better than that - and you know me better than that. I know you're anxious for debate, but there really isn't one here.

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

You said it cannot be discussed with words.

I said "The most essential of life's questions cannot be answered with words." This means that speaking or wording may become limited, purposeless and powerless when attempting to answer that which is beyond answerability.

The Truth cannot be written or spoken. This is because Truth is subjective, non-linear and infinite as the ultimate, absolute Context. Of course, as content, words can only allude with concepts and vague descriptions - but that is all they are, they are not perfect answers, nor perfect representations.

"Who am I?" - This cannot be answered with words. As concepts, "Self; manifest and unmanifest, Godhead, Supreme" do not "answer" the question. They may be pragmatic or symbolic for spiritual practice, but that is all.

In contrast, this is not like: "What is your name?" - "My name is Tiffany." There, the answer; the persons name. "How many wheels are on your car?" - "Four wheels!" See, language is more useful in the linear world, the objective world.

Originally Posted by O'nus

If you are going to discuss it with people, how are you doing it? With words, no? How can you discuss it with others if you cannot express it properly at all? Is it even possible? You say yourself it is a personal revelation, so how can you discuss it? It's just rapport, sympathy, empathy, and acknowledgment that is left for discussion.

Haha, calm down a little, none of this is needed.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Obviously you are ignorant to my position if you think of me as such a cold empiricist.

What am I ignoring?

Originally Posted by O'nus

Don't lump anecdotes and proverbs with teachings, doctrines, and teachers. They are not on the same level and I am certainly not discrediting them.

I was showing what these may have in common. They can all share radical, introverted purpose.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Furthermore, are you saying that those that believe those things are not the intellect..?

I am saying the mind cannot understand Reality; it has no capacity. Riddles and teachings can be humbling.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Do you really think that I go about looking for only the perceivable and concrete and hold it to be the only truth we can know? Must I emphasize utility and pragmatism again?

It's quite humorous that you wish to emphasize utility and pragmatism concerning such topics. What's your problem with anecdotes and metaphor then? You're troubled because you want to strip everything down and analyze it, right?

Originally Posted by O'nus

Come on now, really, you know better than that - and you know me better than that. I know you're anxious for debate, but there really isn't one here.

~

No, I'm not anxious for debate. I really should move on.

Originally Posted by really

What am I ignoring?

It's quite humorous that you wish to emphasize utility and pragmatism concerning such topics. What's your problem with anecdotes and metaphor then? You're troubled because you want to strip everything down and analyze it, right?

...

I could spend my time discussing what my point is, but you seem to be more inclined to defend yourself and attack me. When I scrutinize and challenge your beliefs, you think I am "reducing" and "stripping" everything down to analysis. You paint me as a cold empiricist who wants no spiritual connection but only the graphs and charts of mankind.

I have tried too hard to show you my thoughts and you have done nothing but defend yours and ignore mine. I have tried endlessly with long posts to explain myself but you consistently demonstrate and ignorance to my points.

Perhaps I am bad at expressing my philosophical notions, you might say. However, I have had far too many people insist that I do not me modest in blaming myself for others being negligent to my contributions.

I considered you to be a very intelligent and civil person, but I concede. You are not offering discussion - you are antagonizing. You ostensibly say that you are open-minded and offer nothing but enlightenment, rapport, and human sympathy towards others. However, you only offer it to those that share your same thoughts and embrace on subjectivity and personal revelation. You claim to think non-dualistic but yet if another does not think remotely like you, they must be wrong or lost or over-analyzing the concept. This very post right now you will regard as a profound digression and melodramatic over-reaction to what your intent is. I realize your intent now.

Speak only to those that agree with you. Convince yourself you are open minded. Rationalize to yourself that "this makes sense" and "they just over-think" or "their reasoning is confusing them and leading them astray".

I have had enough of it. You are a waste of time. I hope you see one day how you are lying to yourself. I hope you realize that you are not as open-minded as you like to think you are.

However, we both know, that I, and others like me, only think too much and not see the simple picture before us.

Please do not respond to my posts any further and I will do the same likewise.

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

...

I could spend my time discussing what my point is, but you seem to be more inclined to defend yourself and attack me.

Don't let that bother you, let me establish that I am not attacking you, nor defending what is already invulnerable.

Originally Posted by O'nus

When I scrutinize and challenge your beliefs, you think I am "reducing" and "stripping" everything down to analysis. You paint me as a cold empiricist who wants no spiritual connection but only the graphs and charts of mankind.

I'm sorry if you think I am stereotyping you. You simply give me such an impression. You've said yourself that you want this realm to be empirically demonstrated, since everything else can be.

What is it about you that makes you warm and intuitive? I'm stressing that this is also important.

Originally Posted by O'nus

I have tried too hard to show you my thoughts and you have done nothing but defend yours and ignore mine. I have tried endlessly with long posts to explain myself but you consistently demonstrate and ignorance to my points.

Perhaps I am bad at expressing my philosophical notions, you might say. However, I have had far too many people insist that I do not me modest in blaming myself for others being negligent to my contributions.

I don't see why you are doing all this. I didn't mean to offend you so badly. I have not ignored what you have said, but considered most of it as components of a different machine.

Originally Posted by O'nus

I considered you to be a very intelligent and civil person, but I concede. You are not offering discussion - you are antagonizing. You ostensibly say that you are open-minded and offer nothing but enlightenment, rapport, and human sympathy towards others. However, you only offer it to those that share your same thoughts and embrace on subjectivity and personal revelation. You claim to think non-dualistic but yet if another does not think remotely like you, they must be wrong or lost or over-analyzing the concept. This very post right now you will regard as a profound digression and melodramatic over-reaction to what your intent is. I realize your intent now.

Speak only to those that agree with you. Convince yourself you are open minded. Rationalize to yourself that "this makes sense" and "they just over-think" or "their reasoning is confusing them and leading them astray".

I have had enough of it. You are a waste of time. I hope you see one day how you are lying to yourself. I hope you realize that you are not as open-minded as you like to think you are.

However, we both know, that I, and others like me, only think too much and not see the simple picture before us.

Please do not respond to my posts any further and I will do the same likewise.

~

Please, it's not the end of the world. Nothing happened.

You've let your impatience flood your judgment. I feel for you, but please realize I have no intention of inspiring anger, pride or intellectual discrimination.

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

Challenge this. I believe that human beings are capable of doing moral, right things without having to be controlled by fear of punishment or hope of reward. I also believe that all humans have a right to free will, ESPECIALLY when it comes to their own minds.

Now lets judge your beliefs. How pure and sensical are they?

I agree, so tuu che'

Fear can only come from within so why bring it?

Punishment/reward, again IT"S ALL IN YOUR HEAD

MAKE WHAT YOU WANT OF IT OF EVERYTHING

IMPOSSIBLE IS NOTHING