Thread: Why was Satan cast down from Heaven?

They never really go into the motives of God here in any detail in the Bible, even in the apocrypha etc.

Most poples info is straight from Milton.


I think its safe to say that part of the story isn't really too detailed, and so whatever, make your own. Its not like its based on fact.


Just gotta get this out of the way:

"Better to reign in hell, than to serve in heaven"-Paradise Lost

From what I remember he lead a rebellion against God/Allah/Johova which failed so he was cast into Hell. Modern christians believe that he rules hell, but up until the 1800s he was said to be suffering in hell. Dante portrayed Satan as stuck in a frozen lake.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

From what I remember he lead a rebellion against God/Allah/Johova which failed so he was cast into Hell. Modern christians believe that he rules hell, but up until the 1800s he was said to be suffering in hell. Dante portrayed Satan as stuck in a frozen lake.

it does seem it be phrased in the Bible that he suffers in hell not that he rules it, maybe there are some NT quotes about it although it isn't got into in detail, kinda unusual really it would seem to be a major thing to include since supposedly the devil causes evil or at least influences it happened.

So rebellion, like a revolution or a political opponent? Lol You don't see Gordon Brown burning David Cameron in a pit, although I bet he'd like to. So what no elections in heaven or political process, it's like a damn dictatorship! God is a commie dictator!

I've always learned that satan was thrown out of heaven for thinking he is better than god.

Spoiler for Why was Satan cast down from heaven?:

Satan isn't real.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaitan...lamic_theology

What happened was, once Satan was Lucifer (Light Bearer) one of the highest order of angels. But angels still have free will, so Satan tried to stage a coup d' etat and overthrow God. So, God created Hell to have a place to cast the fallen angels into.

Does Satan suffer? Maybe, Dante pictures him being at the lowest point in Hell, weeping and chewing three sinners in his mouths.

My understanding is that he tried to overthrow the Kingdom of Heaven and was cast out as a consequence. I never understood how he could even think of going against someone who was All Powerful. And, once he was cast into hell, I don't see how he can crawl out to force us to do evil.

I have always had a facination with the story of Satan, one because he seems to be the one source of logic in the book...and two because he never is really in the OT as he is depicited in christianity.

First fact...source any religious page you type in to google...The story involving the name Lucifer...mistranslated to mean the devil in modern bibles was actually meant to talk about the fall of a terrible babylonian king...so that leaves us with the Islamic story of him.

second fact...in the old testament it DOES talk about someone with the name Satan...however he is not an outcast from heavan he is a servant of god who is meant to test human's faith when God tells him to, and also make suggestions to God about whom to test.

In conclusion...It feels to me that Satan as he appears in modern christianity is actually much more a fabrication than much of the rest of the bible (thought it was impossible huh?) Also, if all we have to go on is the Islamic story about Satan...then he was thrown out for doing exactly what he was told to do by a supreme being...quite logical...

Originally Posted by tkdyo

First fact...source any religious page you type in to google...The story involving the name Lucifer...mistranslated to mean the devil in modern bibles was actually meant to talk about the fall of a terrible babylonian king...so that leaves us with the Islamic story of him.

second fact...in the old testament it DOES talk about someone with the name Satan...however he is not an outcast from heavan he is a servant of god who is meant to test human's faith when God tells him to, and also make suggestions to God about whom to test.

I would like to point out that both of these "facts" are really just interpretations.

The "first fact" references Isaiah 14:12 (KJV) which is indeed the only reference to Lucifer in the Bible. An important thing to keep in mind when studying Isaiah is that Isaiah very frequently speaks of more than one idea at a time. Looking at his writings from only one point of view will likely either lead to confusion or contradiction.

The "second fact" come from the early chapters of the book of Job. ( Unless it comes from the Qur’an, but I don't know much about Islam, and I would just make a fool of myself trying. .'. I'm sticking with the Bible.) I don't personally believe that Satan is an adviser to God, so I will give an alternate explanation to what goes on in that selection. Satan is a sinner. The suggestions are not wise observations as much the whining of a brat. I don't know exactly why God let Satan persecute Job, I just believe that God has all the answers and I don't.

Furthermore, never mind...

well, they seem to be interpretations that most religious scholars go with. I suppose that doesnt mean they are right, but they seem to be right when I read the passages they mention. Especially the one mentioning Lucifer...because in the original tora that is not meant to be a proper name, just an analogy.

My problem is that we mere mortals don't know what is going on in the higher realms. Just as our dogs cannot understand the politics that go on in our workplace, so too can we not understand the machinations in Heaven.

I think there's a passage where Christ was asked, if a man's wife passes away, and he remarries, who would be his wife when he went to heaven? Christ said that they just didn't understand what was going on in heaven to ask such a question. I get that feeling too, that, in the afterlife, things wouldn't be quite what we expect.

By the same token, we only have one version of what happened, namely, the people who don't think highly of Satan/Lucifer. We don't have his side of the story.

There are several topics that touch on the basis of your thread Cuddlyperson.

The very devil

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...35&postcount=1

from my understanding hes going to hell and is trying to take as many people down with him

Originally Posted by A dreamer168

What happened was, once Satan was Lucifer (Light Bearer) one of the highest order of angels. But angels still have free will, so Satan tried to stage a coup d' etat and overthrow God. So, God created Hell to have a place to cast the fallen angels into.

Does Satan suffer? Maybe, Dante pictures him being at the lowest point in Hell, weeping and chewing three sinners in his mouths.

Satan and Lucifer are not the same that is is an incorrect translation.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2215

Apologetics Press :: Scripturally Speaking

Is Satan “Lucifer"?
by Bert Thompson, Ph.D.
[Español]
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Q.
Isaiah 14:12 mentions the name of "Lucifer." I’ve heard it said that this is Satan. Are Lucifer and Satan one and the same?

A.

It is sad, but nevertheless true, that on occasion Bible students attribute to God’s Word facts and concepts that it neither teaches nor advocates. These ill-advised beliefs run the entire gamut—from harmless misinterpretations to potentially soul-threatening false doctrines.

Although there are numerous examples from both categories that could be listed, perhaps one of the most popular misconceptions among Bible believers is that Satan also is designated as “Lucifer” within the pages of the Bible. What is the origin of the name Lucifer, what is its meaning, and is it a synonym for “Satan”? Here are the facts.

The word “Lucifer” is used in the King James Version only once, in Isaiah 14:12: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” The Hebrew word translated “Lucifer” is helel (or heylel), from the root, hâlâl, meaning “to shine” or “to bear light.” Keil and Delitzsch noted that “[i]t derives its name in other ancient languages also from its striking brilliancy, and is here called ben-shachar (son of the dawn)... (1982, 7:311). However, the KJV translators did not translate helel as Lucifer because of something inherent in the Hebrew term itself. Instead, they borrowed the name from Jerome’s translation of the Bible (A.D. 383-405) known as the Latin Vulgate. Jerome, likely believing that the term was describing the planet Venus, employed the Latin term “Lucifer” (“light-bearing”) to designate “the morning star” (Venus). Only later did the suggestion originate that Isaiah 14:12ff. was speaking of the devil. Eventually, the name Lucifer came to be synonymous with Satan. But is Satan “Lucifer”?

No, he is not. The context into which verse 12 fits begins in verse 4 where God told Isaiah to “take up this parable against the king of Babylon, and say, ‘How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!’” In his commentary on Isaiah, Albert Barnes explained that God’s wrath was kindled against the king because the ruler “intended not to acknowledge any superior either in heaven or earth, but designed that himself and his laws should be regarded as supreme” (1950, 1:272). The chest-pounding boast of the impudent potentate was:

I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit upon the mount of congregation, in the uttermost parts of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High (vss. 13-14).

As a result of his egotistical self-deification, the pagan monarch eventually would experience both the collapse of his kingdom and the loss of his life—an ignominious end that is described in vivid and powerful terms. “Sheol from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming,” the prophet proclaimed to the once-powerful king. And when the ruler finally descends into his eternal grave, captives of that hidden realm will taunt him by saying, “Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms?” (vs. 16). He is denominated as a “man” (vs. 16) who would die in disrepute and whose body would be buried, not in a king’s sarcophagus, but in pits reserved for the downtrodden masses (vss. 19-20). Worms would eat his body, and hedgehogs would trample his grave (vss. 11,23).

It was in this context that Isaiah referred to the king of Babylon as “the morning star” (“son of the morning”; “son of the dawn”) to depict the once-shining-but-now-dimmed, once-lofty-but-now-diminished, status of the (soon to be former) ruler. In his Bible Commentary, E.M. Zerr observed that such phrases were “...used figuratively in this verse to symbolize the dignity and splendor of the Babylonian monarch. His complete overthrow was likened to the falling of the morning star” (1954, 3:265). This kind of phraseology should not be surprising since “[i]n the O.T., the demise of corrupt national powers is frequently depicted under the imagery of falling heavenly luminaries (cf. Isa. 13:10; Ezek. 32:7), hence, quite appropriately in this context the Babylonian monarch is described as a fallen star [cf. ASV]” (Jackson, 1987, 23:15).

Nowhere within the context of Isaiah 14, however, is Satan depicted as Lucifer. In fact, quite the opposite is true. In his commentary on Isaiah, Burton Coffman wrote: “We are glad that our version (ASV) leaves the word Lucifer out of this rendition, because...Satan does not enter into this passage as a subject at all” (1990, p. 141). The Babylonian ruler was to die and be buried—fates neither of which Satan is destined to endure. The king was called “a man” whose body was to be eaten by worms, but Satan, as a spirit, has no physical body. The monarch lived in and abided over a “golden city” (vs. 4), but Satan is the monarch of a kingdom of spiritual darkness (cf. Ephesians 6:12). And so on.

The context presented in Isaiah 14:4-16 not only does not portray Satan as Lucifer, but actually militates against it. Keil and Delitzsch firmly proclaimed that “Lucifer,” as a synonym, “is a perfectly appropriate one for the king of Babel, on account of the early date of the Babylonian culture, which reached back as far as the grey twilight of primeval times, and also because of its predominate astrological character” (1982, p. 312). They then correctly concluded that “Lucifer, as a name given to the devil, was derived from this passage...without any warrant whatever, as relating to the apostasy and punishment of the angelic leaders” (pp. 312-313).

http://newprotestants.com/LUCIFER.htm

necro post FTW~~~

A being as intelligent as Lucifer would realize the stupidity in trying to usurp the throne of the creator of existence itself. He would've realized the dangers in pride, and he would've taken down more than just a third of heaven, being a charismatic bastard like he is.

In reality, Lucifer's story would've went like this:

Lucifer walked to a mirror. He sees himself, and goes "Damn, I'm awesome. Praise God for making me this way." He would then walk off, and that would've been the end of it.

I was going to say a whole lot of stuff, but pretty much everyone has covered it. Anyway, almost everything about Satan, (including most of the stuff preached from the pulpit and taught as fact is Sunday school,) is assumption. In that I mean it is mostly not Biblical. Not to say that it is ANTI Biblical. It's just mostly not scriptoral. It comes from altered versions of Jewish speculation and tradition, for the most part.

This belongs in the RP forum.

Satan is Enki and Jehovah is Enlil.

Though I'm on Enki's side, Enlil is a tight ass tyrant.

since my belief is God is within all conscious beings - I prefer the more new-age 'Story' of Satan. I call it a story, because really it's just that. I have no personal proof of it, and in my opinion the story isn't even all that important to the spiritual path. It just a story if you're interested

So read this casually, by all means as just a story

Once upon a time God created the angels. Now like all creations, the angels were expressions of God. That means Lucifer too! God is within Lucifer!

The angels were not created knowing the true reality of God. They believed God was separate from them. That God was this being sitting over there in some throne.

Now the angels were on an evolutionary path of self-realization, within their own realm of existence. Not heaven. Heaven is not a place. This place that the angels resided in is a mental realm.

Think of it as a giant shared dream. Thoughts manifest! Evil in this sense isn't anymore real than a monster is real in your dream. It's just an illusion. An illusion you can create because of free will.

But this is a shared dream. And in the shared dream you have this mass consciousness to deal with. The sum of all thoughts creating the dream. The sum of these thoughts create very powerful thought-forms. So powerful, you could have sworn those thought-forms were real...But they werent.

So...what went wrong?

The bible says humanity was the reason why Lucifer rebelled. That's rather ego-centric in my point of view.

Look around you. According to this story, we too are living in a realm where thoughts manifest, and where we have divine free will. And the right to use our free will to freely manifest what ever we can dream of. Even suffering!!

It was only a matter of time before the angels created their own suffering. They grouped themselves into factions. They judged each other, and waged wars. Not unlike humanity. Or is it, were not unlike the fallen.

Lucifer didn't create evil.

Evil is an illusion.

Lucifer rebelled. I don't know what the rebellion was about! But I got the impression Lucifer became self-righteous, delusional and lacked wisdom and compassion. Think of the spanish conquistadors. The cruelty in their path, in the name of God and country. Lucifer was wrong. What ever it was. It was wrong! He was just too self-righteous and proud to realize it.

Well, unlike a human, these angels are very powerful. It is said that the Arc Angel Micheal is so powerful - in a single second he could make all the evil in the world disappear.

Or us.

So a rebelling angel isn't like a human running around swinging a sword. Were talking about a being so intelligent they can design entire planets. So powerful they can destroy them in a second.

As Lucifer and the other angels rebelled - their co-creative powers combined could have potentionally destroyed the entire physical universe! Maybe not intentionally, certainly we are destroying our own planet unintentionally. I think Lucifers rebellion was the same.

I don't think he was trying to destroy the universe, but that's how dangerous the fallen were.

God had to act. And God did something God did not have to do before Lucifers rebellion. God stopped flowing the living energy into the rebellious angels.

This living energy, prana, is what keeps your body alive. Without a body of some sort, you have no vessel to co-create within a reality.

If you're a ghost you can't do squat about the physical world right? You need a physical body to co-create within the physical world. You need a dream body to create in a dream. No prana, no co-creation.

Without the prana, Lucifer and the other fallen lost their angelic bodies. Which meant they could no longer exist in the angelic realm, they were a 'ghost' to it. Without any prana, they could no longer co-create anywhere!!

God wasn't trying to punish them, or send them to some fiery hell. God was merely preventing them from co-creating a universal disaster. And trying to save them from their own self-delusions.

Prana is the energy that gives 'life' to all things that are created.

The ego is created.

As such, it needs prana to continue existing.

No Prana....no ego.

The fallen still had prana within their beings. God merely stopped the flow of more prana entering them. The idea was, by starving the ego, they could be freed from their illusions, and relealize who they truly are. That is, God.

At least, that was the idea.

But the ego that Lucifer believed he was, was none other that which we call Satan. Satan is an ego. He's not real. He's an illusion. A very powerful illusion. And Satan had become an ego that hated God in every way. Now the strange thing about egos are, they hold on even tighter when something threatens them. Lucifer becomming One with God, threatened the Satan-Ego.

Lucifer and the fallen concieved of a plan so terrible, it's why Lucifer became known as the Prince of Darkness

If God is not going to give them prana, then they will STEAL prana. Stealing prana allows their created egos to continue existing. And gives them temporary co-creating powers.

Because they are at such a low level of existance, the vibrational energy of pure prana is so high it would shatter their falsified egos. So instead they rely on a lower vibration of prana.

It's a sad existence really. The sadest. But theres no point in pity, they will just use your pity to sustain their sorry ass existence. As pity is a lower vibration of prana.

As it turns out, were co-creators!! And all co-creators recieve prana and radiate prana. Were walking stupid balls of prana!

So the fallen fool us into giving them our prana. Consciously or unconsciously. So this is where we get the concept of the demons tricking us to do evil. They've been at it for millions of years, they've gotten very good at deception.

But its not so you can go to hell. Or even to stop you from going to heaven. On the contrary, if you yourself become 'evil', guess what, God stops giving you prana!!! They need people to be good, they need people to be loving! But they also need you to be trapped in dualism. Religious hypocrites are the best!! Yum yum yum!!

And secular religion is said to be, their creation. Gives them a steady supply of prana!

Some fallen have been at this game for so long, they don't even remember being an angel. As far as they are concerned, they have always been this vampiric creature.

But stealing prana is no laughing matter.

It's created something truly terrible. No illusion is meant to last forever. Illusions are meant to dissolve or change. By sustaining their egos for eons longer than should have been, these egos have solidified so rock solid - they've become this unholy enigma. These egos have no place in existence anymore. But the one suffering the most, is the consciousness still trapped in them.

And then, theres Satan!

Now at some point in the story, Lucifer-Satan realizes his error. This wasn't what he wanted. He didn't want to create hell, and entire level of existance of these disgusting vampiric demons with nothing better to do than to steal prana.

He realized his error, but rather than being humble, he just hates himself. He hates himself more than he hates anything. He hates himself so much, he is trapped in his own personal hell. Only time will tell if he can be saved, as remember, so long as a being exists, the flame of God is within them. And the flame of God still resides within Lucifer.

But while Lucifer punishes himself in his own hell, Satan runs amock in the lower level of existence. AKA hell. This terrified the fallen angels. How can Satan exist outside of Lucifer?

They look at themselves and say "God created me", and they looked at Satan and said "But who the fuck created you!". And Satan terrified them, for he was absolute evil. And a seemingly conscious creation not created by God.

But actually Satan doesn't really exist. And he's also essentially powerless. He is merely a thought-form, given a certain life and power by the stolen prana of the fallen angels. He is like a dream character. A dream character that the dreamers believed was real. And they have believed him so real...it's been said the thought-form Satan has figured out how to steal prana for himself. But he is merely behaving exactly as the fallen expect him to. The fallen angels 'created' Satan and other thought-form demons. Not to torment us! On the contrary. They are now the victims of their own thought-forms.

This was why their self-destructive egos were denied prana to begin with! Without prana, it would have been impossible to dream of the hell they are in.

If they stop stealing prana eventually their thought-forms would lose the life-force and cease to exist. As well as their egos.

So in this story its important to realize that Satan and Lucifer are two separate things. Lucifer is a fallen angel, currently trapped in his own personal hell. As an expression of God, God still loves Lucifer and still holds Lucifer to his highest potential, as a great angel of Light. Not the Prince of Darkness.

These illusions have existed and played out long enough. Soon God will end the dream. And rather than just starving the egos of Prana, God will personally destroy the illusions, to free the conscious beings in them. Who are suffering more than you can imagine.

So why hasn't God done so, already? Why hasn't God freed the fallen angels from their own self illusions already?

There is a problem.

All created beings are expressions of God. The drops of the ocean.

And as a drop of the ocean we can become aware that we are the ocean, become One with it. But at the same time, we never lose our individuality. We still remain that single drop, while being One with the ocean.

In this way you can become God, but still be a unique individual within God.

If however, you think you will die when your ego dies - you can actually self-destruct your divine individuality. Essentially, it will be like you don't exist. You become God. But the 'drop', no longer exists.

Time is ticking for hell. God has set a date. And on a specific date, that's it. Game over. The dream ends. All illusions will be revealed as being illusions. Essentially all false egos will be destroyed. DESTROYED. Any individual who believed they were the ego, might self-destruct their individuality.

But for many, there is virtually nothing left of the true divine individuality.

If you care about the souls trapped in their own hell, work on your own self-realization. The fallen can only consume misaligned prana, or something created from dualism. If the entire earth were to become enlightened, it would be large blow to the fallen in hell. Without the stolen prana, their thought-forms will disappear. All the demons, and Satan - poof. Gone. Like it was all just a dream.

And then, as was originally planed millions of years ago. They will find themselves alone in a void. Alone with God.

the end!

I don't believe that Satan was cast down from heaven. I believe that he was a liar and a murderer from the beggining, just like John says. It's more compatible with the theory of evolution.

He wasnt really thrown down, its all an angelic conspiricy to scare you in to believing there is a firey world below the earth where he rules. He's sitting with Jesus and God havin a brewsky laughing at how well it worked.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

I don't believe that Satan was cast down from heaven. I believe that he was a liar and a murderer from the beggining, just like John says. It's more compatible with the theory of evolution.

Are you serious?

What does Evolution have anything to do with it?