Originally Posted by
O'nus
The original point was that the bible can easily be mis-interpreted to justify violence. So, in reply, you say that Atheists are violent to?
I'll concede this one, since I mis-interpreted your point as simply pointing towards instances where Christians have been violent, not a point about the actual text.
First of all, if your point is that simply all people are violent, then you may notice that I already agree.
Well, that is what I was getting at with the post before my last post. (The one about fealty and such.)
However, when we speak about justifying cruelty via beliefs, we do not. Stalin did not do those things because he was Atheist. As a side note, he did teach his daughter to believe in Christ, so obviously his religious code is a bit misconstrued.
I probably could have found a better/more creative example. Stalin is kind of the new Godwin's law. Try and ignore any laziness on my part since the general point that atheists can use their lack of belief to justify stuff. Later in my post, I clarified that this doesn't apply to you, or humanists specifically, because I realized atheism is too broad- thus unfair- to look at collectively at all.
EDIT: I'll have to research that daughter thing, it is interesting.
The point is;
+ Atheism is the lack of belief in God
- How do you use this to justify cruel acts?
Okay. As of right now, I am not budging on this one. You can use the lack of belief in God to justify cruelty.
Remember, atheism is a constituent belief in other belief systems. It is prepositional when you ask a Humanist Existentialist, like myself, "what do you believe?" when I really do not "believe" in anything. Thus, I am forced to answer "Atheist" - perhaps more for the sake of brevity.
After reading about humanism, it seems some parts of existentialism are inherent in humanism. At the very least, I can see how they would go well together.
Find one instance when a Humanist justifies murder because of Humanism and I will shut up. (Of course, he ought to be obviously in a proper state of mind; I won't quote insane Theists murders like Jeffrey Dahmer).
The point was that I was strictly speaking of the good in the bible and instead of debating that, the rebuttal pointing the finger elsewhere. If you say, "Humanism justifies murders because of X" I won't say, "Ohhh but.. uhm.. crusades!" I will try to look further into X, question it, and either admit you are right or try to show how you are wrong (or some reconciliation).
Listen, Stalin is not a fair comparison at all because his views are not even remotely the ones I am addressing. It is irrelevant.
Agreed.
Your point ought to be that violence is ubiquitous regardless of religious beliefs.
In that case, the point is still moot because how can you justify cruelty via Humanism? I beg of you to prove that point and I would humbly admit being wrong.
Alright. Well, the crusades doesn't apply to myself either, then. Messianic Jewish acts of violence could be, if they can be justified through the new testament. Even if you may think that using the 'new testament' argument is illogical/inconsistent, not acknowledging the new testament as the new covenant would mean that it doesn't apply to my beliefs, thus not to me. (In the same way that someone saying ''atheism shouldn't defend morality'' wouldn't change the fact that your branch of atheism does believe in morality.) Does that make sense?
Either way, the point I was making was; religion can be used to justify cruelty. But the good in religion can exist independently without the dogmatic potential to be misinterpreted for justifying cruelty. That independent ideal is Humanism (for me).
Okay. However, as a Christian, I accept everything within the Bible as from God and thus positive- I should analyze it- but synthesizing it based on the parts that make me feel good would be hypocritical. As an atheist, you can find the ideal that works best for you. (Heck, one could say that doing so is a major part of many types of existentialism.)
Yes, it would be much fairer because how the hell can you justify anything with just Atheism alone? Let alone Theism alone? Do you realize that you are arguing that the non-belief in something can justify murders? Are you really prepared to argue that Stalin did not believe in anything?
Eh, I don't want a semantics argument but believing that God is false is still a belief. Just an exclusive belief is all.
I will post a thread on humanism tomorrow and then existentialism's injection. Remember that I really consider myself a Humanist Existentialist, and have for a while. It is just that Existentialism is a difficult step after accepting Humanism. I think you will understand, considering the above quote. If it seems that I do not try to be insightful to others points, please, by all means, let me know.
I wasn't trying to say that you don't. But I wonder in what spirit was Richard Dawkins quoted. I can't speak for anyone else, but I am sure others will agree with me when I say that religion is or should be a search for truth.
~
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