Thread: why

Originally Posted by Taosaur

I hope I addressed this above.

You did, thank you.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Oh, so we're not limited within our limitations. Why even make that point?

Our freedom is unlimited in the sense that we always have the karmic responsibility for our decisions and our will. This is completely independent of circumstances, which do not counter-act the fact that you always have a "choice." Freedom is not infinite in the hypothetical sense, nor in the sense that it is dependent by what you can do in the current circumstances, but soley in the fact that you guide your whole existence however you wish, for eternity. I guess I could say this is quality over quantity.

Originally Posted by khh

I'm not arguing about determinism, in the classical sense. As far as I know, that debate is to whether or not the rules of science means everything is predetermined or not.
I'm using only logic, completely disregarding whether or not science says it's possible, and the for Christians indisputable point that their god is omnipotent.

I don't see how your argument differs from a scientific perspective, and why the supposed difference is important. What have you to say about one's intention? As an entity, you can know the likely outcomes of your own actions, and then "enact" them. I don't see the problem. The knowledge of outcomes or potentials is in awareness, but that doesn't mean it was predetermined or caused.

Originally Posted by khh

Well, I'll make a comparison.
Given that it's impossible for one solid, physical object to pass through another, and that the law of gravity applies; imagine a unbreakable tube without any friction inside being laid in a steep, long down-slope. At the bottom end of the tube there is an indestructible wall, and that someone is fastened to the wall so that they cannot be unfastened. Now, the being that placed these items then inserts a man into a heavy vehicle that cannot be broken out of, and places that vehicle at the top of the tube. Now, the being knows what is going happen to the man at the bottom of the tube when the vehicle on top is released, since there's only one possible outcome. The man at the bottom is squashed. Do you blame that man placed in the vehicle for that?

No since he (the driver) had no (or very limited) control over the event. Although this is a hypothetical example, in essence, similar things can occur in the world. Blame comes from the belief in duality and causality, so the question must be directed at a lower perception or smaller context of Reality. I know what you mean though, yet that doesn't rid them of responsibility. Being aware that all is in karmic unity, one's loss of lower karma could be another's gain (so to speak).

Originally Posted by khh

The only way to know that something is going to happen is if there is no other possible outcome, which means that whoever carries it out has no choice as to what happens. In my comparison, the being who created the scenario was the god, and the man placed in the vehicle was mankind.

There is no such thing as "one and no other possible outcome." There is only such in grand simplifications and hypothetical examples, but in reality you'd never know because there are infinite encompassing factors. Even in your example, there could be a sudden earthquake and the tube shatters, or the vehicle gets stuck half-way down on account of toppling. Furthermore if the example was perfected, it still is manifesting within an infinite universe of time and space and thus, the outcomes are recorded forever.

Originally Posted by khh

Since the Christian's god is omnipotent, he has to be all knowing, and if he's all knowing then there's is only one course that the events can take. That means that according to Christian lore either no-one is responsible for their actions, or the Christian god is not omnipotent.
Do you see any fault with my reasoning?

Nope, because Omnipotence is a quality of power and invincibility. What you mean is all-knowingness. All-knowingness can co-exist within a karmically united universe. The only simplification somebody can make is that: "potentiality is manifesting as actuality," and that doesn't inhibit freedom or free-will.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I never said that god has to conform to some perceptions, I'm just stating a fact which I've never been given a logical answer to... Aserting that a God which is the alpha and omega is somehow exempt from being the source of everything including us is illogical. In the end, being a non-believer, I don't care whether a god is claimed to be good or bad or what his "fault" is supposed to be. If we're talking about the "real" badass god's everybody wants to have, then you can't be illogical about it. If you are, and then perhaps claim that the illogical can be supported by god's omnipotence, then I have nothing more to say. If one wants to be ignorant, I can't do anything about it.

I'm not fully sure what you mean, but a God that is united in the actions of the human or the fulfillment of the spirit (and in Karma) is not that hard to understand. Maybe I'm missing something.

Originally Posted by really

I'm not fully sure what you mean, but a God that is united in the actions of the human or the fulfillment of the spirit (and in Karma) is not that hard to understand. Maybe I'm missing something.

Then what you're describing is called nature. No need to make up a god.

I don't know what you think karma is supposed to be, so I can't address it.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Then what you're describing is called nature. No need to make up a god.

This statement is true insofar as it goes, but many people do find it useful to engage the source of existence as an entity or entities. It's easy for those of us who don't do so to pick out the flaws in this approach, but we're just worrying the mote in our neighbor's eye while ignoring the beam in our own. Unless you're some fully enlightened saint, everyone has blind spots in their worldview.

Theism, while not exclusively true in the way many theists would like to think, is not fundamentally in error either. The universe is conscious at least to the extent that we are conscious, and quite likely on higher orders of organization and complexity, unless you're convinced that we're the pinnacle of sentience in all the cosmos. Moreover, the principles leading to the organization of compounds into life and living cells into conscious entities are extensions of those principles that lead to the emergence of the pre-material singularity and its differentiation into particles that could form compounds. It's perfectly correct and consistent with current knowledge to say that the universe is formed and guided by a proto-consciousness from which we all emerge and to which we'll return.

Personally, I avoid any degree of personification in addressing the unity, origin or ground state of being, but it's merely a matter of emphasis. Whatever its faults, for billions of humans throughout history, monotheism has proven a highly accessible means of grounding oneself in our shared condition.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Then what you're describing is called nature. No need to make up a god.

You can call it nature or God, but they're the same. Apart from all the superfluous misinterpretations and bad reputations of the "religious God", I like to think God as symbolizing the Divine Reality. I think "nature" is more of an objective concept, whereas "God" is a purely subjective revelation of a non-conceptualized, all-encompassing, unified Reality.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I don't know what you think karma is supposed to be, so I can't address it.

Karma - basically, i'd say it is the director/directing of the soul's fate or destiny, or the description of force(s) that evaluate our choices throughout all time. It is described that positive choices bring good fortune, and visa versa, but there is no inherent good vs. bad/sin.

Originally Posted by really

Karma - basically, i'd say it is the director/directing of the soul's fate or destiny, or the description of force(s) that evaluate our choices throughout all time. It is described that positive choices bring good fortune, and visa versa, but there is no inherent good vs. bad/sin.

This Karma described in the last sentence is just superstition. If nature plays out so the most evil person on Earth has the best life in history, then that's just the way it is. To note; that's one thing I often hear Christians being perplexed about regarding the "atheist worldview". "How is it fair that nothing happens to Hilter after all the things he did" - who said life was fair?

Originally Posted by really

Karma - basically, i'd say it is the director/directing of the soul's fate or destiny, or the description of force(s) that evaluate our choices throughout all time. It is described that positive choices bring good fortune, and visa versa, but there is no inherent good vs. bad/sin.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

This Karma described in the last sentence is just superstition. If nature plays out so the most evil person on Earth has the best life in history, then that's just the way it is. To note; that's one thing I often hear Christians being perplexed about regarding the "atheist worldview". "How is it fair that nothing happens to Hilter after all the things he did" - who said life was fair?

'lly is personifying karma somewhat in suggesting anything "evaluates," and mystifying it by bringing in "our choices" and "all time." The most basic translation of karma is 'action,' and in speaking of the laws of karma as applied to human affairs, we mean nothing more mystical than that apple trees rarely bear oranges and violence rarely brings peace to the aggressor. Bonsay, you bring up a great example in Hitler--he died in a hole with his mind in tatters, having accomplished the opposite of his ambitions by casting the German people into generations of shame and hardship.

In what magical fantasy world do actions such as Hitler's lead a man to be at peace with himself and unmolested by others, surrounded by kind and trustworthy people, and widely beloved?

Thanks Taosaur. Nice points.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

This Karma described in the last sentence is just superstition. If nature plays out so the most evil person on Earth has the best life in history, then that's just the way it is. To note; that's one thing I often hear Christians being perplexed about regarding the "atheist worldview". "How is it fair that nothing happens to Hilter after all the things he did" - who said life was fair?

I said there is no inherent good or bad. That means there is actually no superposition (except for descriptions), but these words can still be used to describe karmic propensities linguistically. Good and bad most closely supports through either that which supports the generic term of "life" or that which doesn't. It is all intrinsic.

The view of Hitler is only limited to his lifetime. Who knows where he has led his spirit. Nothing in the universe is ignored or excluded, by definition. Everything anybody does, whether they call it "good" or 'bad", reaps consequences and potentialities, which manifest now and beyond this lifetime. That's Karma in a nutshell.

Okay, thanks for those, but i must also ask, if God is not bound by time, then wouldn't he be forced to see everything, such as what future lays ahead? So It's not really like he has a choice right? But isn't he all-powerful? He obviously saw himself that he messed up by creating us right? Because he himself created a flood to kill all of his "children." So.. wtf? To put it lightly. Too many questions!! =/

Originally Posted by Rozzy

Okay, thanks for those, but i must also ask, if God is not bound by time, then wouldn't he be forced to see everything, such as what future lays ahead? So It's not really like he has a choice right? But isn't he all-powerful? He obviously saw himself that he messed up by creating us right? Because he himself created a flood to kill all of his "children." So.. wtf? To put it lightly. Too many questions!! =/

This is exactly why I cannot accept any sort of divine creator to be absolute truth. Far too many loose ends exist. I place much more confidence in the idea that life arose as a result of increasing complexity and "new" interactions between subatomic particles, atoms, molecules, and eventually organic compounds.

well i believe there is a god. just not the bible god....

Originally Posted by Rozzy

why would God still create us if he knows whether or not we'll choose him. He knows we'll suffer right? so why would he do that? I guess im just confused as to why.

All suffering has purpose, find the purpose, end the suffering. It's all part of God's plan, he's the one who created the devil afterall.

Without pain, no game. Without having an empty heart, it can not be filled. Peope desire their hearts to be filled, but they do not want to empty it. How do you fill something that is already full? You can't. That is why most people no longer feel love as they refuse to feel the pain that comes along with love. Love goes up and down. If you refuse to go down, you can't go up... because you are already up.

For God, this world is a game.. he doesn't take anything serious at all. I mean he has all eternity to spend, most likely this is nothing but a big experiment in which he is trying out new drama situations etc... people love to see movies in where there is much drama.. God created us in his image, so I'm guessing God enjoys watching all this drama on earth as we enjoy watching drama on TV.

Peopple canno't accept this reality because they belief they are much too important to be played with like a little puppet... yeah thats right, people actually reason that they are so important, that God would not dare to lay a finger on them! LOL talking about a HUGE egotrip. This is the reason why people don't believe in God. Fucking huge egos. Not normal anymore.

People have such extremely huge ego, that they even get angry at other people for "daring to be more pretty then them" resulting in jealousy... and the funny thing is that jealousy is socially accepted as being normal and not crazy. People who get jealous worship the devil. If you would worship God and accept your faith as it is, there would be no point in getting jealous. If you get jealous at someone, it means you're greedy, you want what they have only because they have it, if they didn't have it, you wouldn't have been jealous in the first place.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Without pain, no game. Without having an empty heart, it can not be filled. Peope desire their hearts to be filled, but they do not want to empty it. How do you fill something that is already full? You can't. That is why most people no longer feel love as they refuse to feel the pain that comes along with love. Love goes up and down. If you refuse to go down, you can't go up... because you are already up.

Who made those rules? Can he change them?