Thread: Question for Atheists.

I don't like the whole concept of belief. Of course, we all still have beliefs, there is no getting away from that. But at least we can minimize our beliefs and try to base them on our experience and reality. It isn't hard to not believe in organized religion, since it is not organic to man. I mean, a child raised by wolves is not going to come up with the whole theology of blood sacrifice to atone for falling short of God's perfection. It is taught and conditioned. So it is easy to reject organized religion. The thing though is to reject one belief that is prevalent in society does not mean that one has investigated all other options and rejected each one. All too often people seem to think "Christianity doesn't add up so I choose atheism." There is the root feeling that religion satisfies that gave rise to religion. Well, two feelings. One is curiosity about how the Universe works. This feeling also gave rise to science. The other feeling is hard to label, but it could be a feeling of connectedness with all life, a desire to cultivate this connection, etc... It is all too easy for organized religion to exploit these feelings. It does this by giving consolatory answers to explain how everything works, and by using guilt to cut one off from the feeling of connection, then using fear that one cannot regain this connection except by obeying the law of the religion.

The idea the we are not perfect and that we must be perfect to feel this connection with the whole is the driving force of organized religion. But the fact is that we are already part of the whole and interdependent with the rest of the Universe. The whole Universe is perfect already. We are already part of it. There are actions and emotions that alienate us from feeling this, and this gave rise to the concept of 'sin'. For example, to murder an innocent person does not help you, or him/her, to feel connected with you. But the idea of just existing or being human is a sin is a manipulative strategy for religion.

But there are other alternative models besides organized religion that form a whole spectrum between hard materialist atheism and extremist blind faith superstitious religion. It isn't so black and white. That is why it is hard to have a conversation or a debate about it. There are those of us who are Christian/ Muslim/ etc. There are those of us who reject organized religion but maybe believe in Jesus personally. There are those who may believe in an undefined "higher power". There are those of us who are pantheists, who believe that the Universe is the highest power. Among pantheists we have ones who use the word "God" in naming the totality of the Universe (or Universes). There are atheist pantheists, (like Einstein) who feel that the Universe is Divine, and nurture that feeling of connection to the whole, but who do not call it "God". There are Panentheists, who are similar to pantheists, they believe that the Universe is Divine but Divinity also transcends the Universe. But calling it "God" is optional and does not conform to the idea of a flying spaghetti monster or magical sky faerie. There are Animists, who believe that the rocks, and mountains, and rivers, have life or spirit in them. There are animist pantheists and there are totemic animists. There are humanists, there are stoics, there are theosophists. There are those, like creationists, who reject science, and there are those, like Tibetan Buddhists, who embrace science and conform there beliefs to the latest scientific discoveries. Then there are materialist atheists. Even among one religion there are all these different approaches. Hence all the different sects. Most people are unconscious about what they believe or what makes the most sense to them. In fact, every single person has a unique experience of life.

Many of these people will agree on a lot of points, and disagree on some, or agree on little and disagree on a lot. It is a spectrum. So instead of seeing black and white as the only options, investigation and education are needed. And never stop investigating. If you stop investigating then there can be no debate, only argument. If one has never investigated, but settled for only black and white, then the idea of investigating is argued against. I play devil's advocate for people who don't investigate, and they argue against me. To people who have closed there minds to other options besides Christianity I challenge their beliefs, and they think that I am arguing with them. For atheists I do the same. I also do the same for flaky new-agers (even though atheists probably think that I am a New-Ager).... I have a co-worker who is the flakiest New-Ager who drives us all crazy!

So when you ask "how I came to be an atheist and when" it is a hard question to answer. Are you asking how and when I rejected the idea of a creator being or a patriarchal being or lost feeling of divinity or embraced science or gave up superstition...?

I find it hard to label my beliefs. I just believe in what makes sense and agrees with my reason and experience. I would consider myself and atheist but I also could accommodate an understanding of divinity that allows me to understand many theists. What makes the most sense to me is atheist panentheism (not pantheism).

I am currently labeling myself as this in order to answer the question. How I arrived at this and when is that I am always investigating what makes the most sense to me. I never wholly accepted any religion, except some sects of Buddhism. I was into aspects of Hinduism for a while, but without the deities. I have grown into what I call panentheism around when I was twenty, but that is when it consciously made sense to me. Before that I intuitively accepted it. It wasn't until my mid-twenties that I rejected the idea of "supermen" who could save me from something or enlighten me somehow. I have never believed in a creator god. I have never thought that anything or anybody is inherently evil. I don't believe that morality is dictated or judged by a supreme being. I believe that morality is just common sense and what encourages happiness is moral.

Originally Posted by Caprisun

I've never heard of excessive maturity before.

It is called having an intelligent conversation instead of simplifying and making fun of other's beliefs in an unoriginal way. Like, c'mon with the flying spaghetti monster or the magical sky fairy already! If someone is going to use satire, at least be intelligent and come up with your own unique satire.

Continuous self-discovery.

To answer OP's question, I was raised Catholic, I never doubted god's existence, always blindly followed my parents and their beliefs. Until one day, I distinctly remember, in History class, 2 of my class mates were talking about god, one was an Atheist, he said, "there simply is no god", at the time, I couldn't understand it, how could some one not believe in god. So I just went home puzzled, I have to say that's where it honestly began.

Shortly soon after, my thought process evolved, I don't want to sound dramatic here, but I thought, what if everything I've heard about god is a lie? And i started to imagine how life would be without the idea of god, your telling me god didn't make the universe in 7 days? and woman was not made from man's rib? That evil talking snake didn't trick Eve into eating the "all powerful, all knowing, wisdom apple"? And Noah didn't build an Ark housing millions upon millions of species to survive an all consuming flood? And that burning bush wasn't really talking to Moses? and he didn't part the Red Sea? And that Mary really wasn't impregnated by an Angel that came to her in her sleep? and that Jesus never walked on water or turned water into wine, or brought the dead back to life or healed the blind? But that would mean he never resurrected from the dead, it would also mean that him and Mary didn't float up into the sky into a magical place called "heaven"... But that means.. that means the Bible must be fiction! wait.. a 2000 year old book? how could it not be factual?!? But then I realized it was bullshit! It really was!

Then I asked myself how we got here if god didn't create us. The Big Bang? But can we prove it? It certainly is more logical than a big man in the sky creating us from nothing. But we can't be sure, so logically, we don't know how we got here, and dammit, I'm okay with not knowing, but not knowing doesn't mean we should turn to god.

And then I looked back at all that religion has gotten us.. Wars, Hate, Hypocrisy, Prejudice.. why would we follow such a horrible thing? Sure you could say it also brought us love and kindness, but do you really need a big bully in the sky threatening you with Hell to be a good person? I know all the Atheists I know certainly don't, they're good people because they don't need god to be moral, they don't need heaven as motivation, they grew up and realized, "When I die, I'm dead, I'm not going to a place where everything's perfect and everything's going to be okay, and I'm okay with that".

I'm not sure if i answered your question because I rather started babbling which I tend to do with religious discussion, but all in all, I think I became Atheist because admitting you don't know is more rational than turning to your imaginary friend.

Also, I've had countless pointless Theist vs. Atheist debates, and they don't solve anything, it just ends with me being frustrated, which often happens when dealing with children. So I'm just posting this then I'm out.

I just didn't see the connection between maturity and "uptightness."

Originally Posted by RogerWaters

To answer OP's question, I was raised Catholic, I never doubted god's existence, always blindly followed my parents and their beliefs. Until one day, I distinctly remember, in History class, 2 of my class mates were talking about god, one was an Atheist, he said, "there simply is no god", at the time, I couldn't understand it, how could some one not believe in god. So I just went home puzzled, I have to say that's where it honestly began.

Shortly soon after, my thought process evolved, I don't want to sound dramatic here, but I thought, what if everything I've heard about god is a lie? And i started to imagine how life would be without the idea of god, your telling me god didn't make the universe in 7 days? and woman was not made from man's rib? That evil talking snake didn't trick Eve into eating the "all powerful, all knowing, wisdom apple"? And Noah didn't build an Ark housing millions upon millions of species to survive an all consuming flood? And that burning bush wasn't really talking to Moses? and he didn't part the Red Sea? And that Mary really wasn't impregnated by an Angel that came to her in her sleep? and that Jesus never walked on water or turned water into wine, or brought the dead back to life or healed the blind? But that would mean he never resurrected from the dead, it would also mean that him and Mary didn't float up into the sky into a magical place called "heaven"... But that means.. that means the Bible must be fiction! wait.. a 2000 year old book? how could it not be factual?!? But then I realized it was bullshit! It really was!

Then I asked myself how we got here if god didn't create us. The Big Bang? But can we prove it? It certainly is more logical than a big man in the sky creating us from nothing. But we can't be sure, so logically, we don't know how we got here, and dammit, I'm okay with not knowing, but not knowing doesn't mean we should turn to god.

And then I looked back at all that religion has gotten us.. Wars, Hate, Hypocrisy, Prejudice.. why would we follow such a horrible thing? Sure you could say it also brought us love and kindness, but do you really need a big bully in the sky threatening you with Hell to be a good person? I know all the Atheists I know certainly don't, they're good people because they don't need god to be moral, they don't need heaven as motivation, they grew up and realized, "When I die, I'm dead, I'm not going to a place where everything's perfect and everything's going to be okay, and I'm okay with that".

I'm not sure if i answered your question because I rather started babbling which I tend to do with religious discussion, but all in all, I think I became Atheist because admitting you don't know is more rational than turning to your imaginary friend.

Also, I've had countless pointless Theist vs. Atheist debates, and they don't solve anything, it just ends with me being frustrated, which often happens when dealing with children. So I'm just posting this then I'm out.

Bravo, sir!

I think that there may be an afterlife or an eternal, but God never visited me & told me so.. When i was a kid & read the old testament, i was instantly discusted. I felt that someone must have taken the real book away & replaced it with a cruel joke. I could never accept these reprints as truth, & infact a trickery & nievety of man. I thought, this is not my God!!! I then tilted toward concepts of spirituality through Buhdism/hinduism & felt an energy that i had felt my whole life. An unexplaineable energy of infinite... As if i had been here for thousands of years & played out in many times & cultures. I decided at the time that i did love the Jesus aspect, that surely Christains should accept the concept of reincarnation, but i found that this was fround upon, this made my spiritual journey much harder as i awoke to a ruthless cold world. I realized i was born as the Jesus concept of freeing my mind of meaningless thoughts of revenge & to forgive all. I hold these values to this day. I dont believe in heaven or hell, i dont believe this is our only life. Through ESP, i would have expected to have seen this God by now, but instead my Psychical journey tells me of an eternal essence of being. A frequency that spans all time. And when we watch movies like the matrix, it sounds more realistic to me than a God waiting to judge us. That maybe we are eternal without judgement, but the trials we put ourselves through in hopes to grow & advance from this experience... The bad part is all the bad people could be waiting for us on the other side, & if you are not strong in mind, your energy may be drained or incorporated into a more powerful source that forces your life essence into assimilation.. So learning the power of your free-will & head strong to your morals & passions could determine your survival in the eather of the infinite.

I just don't like everyone blaming religion for everything. Yes, organized religion and superstition is silly and backwards. But it is not any more responsible for wars and prejudice than any other belief system. Most wars are not fought over religion, but over scarce resources and food or tribal identity. I mean you could blame language! I live in the south (south eastern U.S.A.) and the people here are very prejudiced. They are backwards. Sure, with that backwardness comes Christianity, but that the backwardness came first. Religion didn't make them stupid, they were stupid enough to accept religion. They would be just as stupid, prejudiced, and violent if they were conditioned with science and rationality and atheism. They would be hating on Christians then, like the communist Russians and Chinese who killed millions of people to this day. There is nothing that I know of in the Bible to hate everyone who isn't a white republican who drives a pick-up truck. They even are prejudiced against bicycle riders here! They try to run them over and one got shot last in the head last year when he was riding bikes with his son! That is not religion's fault, that is just pure dumb inbred hateful ignorance. Sure, the Abrahamic religions are responsible for many wars, in their own region. These are tribal wars, and yes, the Abrahamic religions are majorly to blame, but so are tribal xenophobic tendencies inherent to all human beings, atheists included. Atheists are responsible for just as many deaths.

But people who feel a connection with the whole Universe aren't like that, even if they naively attribute that feeling to a concept of "God". It is the people who don't feel that connection that blame other people and hate other people. Even atheists blame theists for the world's problems just like theists blame atheists.

All in all, atheists are more intelligent than Christians, Jews, and Muslims. But that doesn't mean that to be spiritual is stupid or bad. All spirituality is not based on blind faith and superstitious and/or conditioned belief. Some of it is based on feeling and awareness and intelligence. We don't blame people who believe things and we don't stick our heads in the sand.

Dannon, I just wanted to pop in and thank you for your last post. It's very thought provoking. While we disagree on many fronts, what you say here rings true for me. I'll sleep on it, and eventually I'd like to discuss what 'spiritual' means to you in more detail, maybe in another thread, maybe tomorrow so we don't hijack this one. 'Spiritual' has always been stuck with 'irrational' and 'unfounded' for me, but if it could stand alone I would love for it to.

I didnt lose my religion.
I simply chose logic over fairytale.

Originally Posted by sora12

Hello there.
I am interested in knowing when some of you who are Atheist became/ realized you were atheist and or how? (Sorry if I worded the question in a weird way.) Lately, I've been doubting my belief in God. I grew up all my life believing in him and I've never really given a second thought to his existence. So I just wanted to see if anybody went through a similar experience before they became Atheist and stuff like that.

Hi

My parents were evangelical christians, and I was raised as a christian. I was involved pretty intensely in church life during my youth, up to the point of converting people I didn't even know. I think I started doubting my beliefs at age 14/15, when my best friend (whom I converted) stopped believing. Needless to say, I was pretty dissapointed. Not much later, my parents decided to leave the church we were attending, so I didn't come into contact with fellow believers that much. There was no distinct turning point, but from that point onwards, I started to become more critical, and today I call myself an atheist. And I'm glad for it, too.

Looking back on it, I feel as though I was being conditioned into this mindset which was quite unhealthy. I have been pretty bitter and angry about it for a while. All I thought about was converting friends and staying 'pure' and crap like that. There was a great amount of pressure being layed on my from the church and my parents, although they might not even have realized this. Besides this, I also started to think about the faith itself, and it just started to feel wrong to me. People told me that free will was the cause of evil, that all evil has a purpose. Good people who didn't believe in God would go to hell, but as long as I accepted Jesus christ as my lord and saviour and said a prayer every now and then, I would be sure of a place in heaven, even if I cursed my ass of, murdered my classmates and watched porn all day. It just didn't seem right. Still doesn't.

Damn, I could go off on a serious rant on my religious history here, but let's keep it readable.

Some things never change eh? One thing I am happy to see is the fact that not one single atheist in this thread made that ridiculous statement, that they are atheist because they were born that way. I see the intelligence level has risen a bit here. Say it with me people. "Atheism is a choice" Nice, continue.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

Some things never change eh? One thing I am happy to see is the fact that not one single atheist in this thread made that ridiculous statement, that they are atheist because they were born that way. I see the intelligence level has risen a bit here. Say it with me people. "Atheism is a choice" Nice, continue.

Welcome back, mate!

Hey, I am glad a topic like this exists, only I am afraid I had to just fly through it since I didn't have the time or the patience to read all 16 pages of this topic.

This post is directed to anyone that may read it and by all means I do not wish to insult anyone or anyone's belief. I am just stating my opinion,

I agree with most of you that believing in any organised religion is ridiculous. I ll even go ahead and say that believing in a higher power alone is pointless too, but it's definetally better than being ripped off by Church or other similar organisms.

However, I find atheism absurd. Believing in (a) God(s)'s non-existance is as pointless as believing in their existance. By definition if something is stated to be beyond our sphere of understanding or beyond what our senses or possible knowledge and equipment can understand, you cannot know if it exists or not.

It's all like a big Schrödinger's cat experiment. You cannot know if the cat is dead or alive so you won't go buy food for the cat, but you won't make preparations for it's burial either. Doing either of the two is a complete waste of time.

Similarly, you cannot know if (a) God(s) exists or not (same on afterlife, until you die) so abiding by some religion's rules/believing in them is as absurd as declaring the cat dead/not believing.

I don't understand why people need to have an absolute opinion on something. It is ok not to know. If only people realised that you cannot really know anything they would be much more free inside.

But religion points at other things as well, such as value or worth, good or evil. I will not sidetrack by what is good or evil, but I will just say what is important is to not regret being yourself. The only advice I can give to anyone is to be who they need to be. If some divine creature judges me afterwards, I will at least know I have been on good terms with myself, lived by some standards. Besides, who knows based on what the divine monkey in the sky will judge you?

Also note that all the religions that emmersed in the Axial Age didn't have absolute dogmas in mind when they talked about these things, but a way of living.

If someone asked Buddha or Comfucius if they believed in god, they d probably just shrug and tell you politely that it's not the right question. It didn't matter what you believe in, but how you behave. It just became twisted later...

Non-knowledge is a fertile thing, not just ignorance.
So yes, I am an agnostic.







Sorry for the wallpost! Hope at least 1 person reads it through

Originally Posted by windsfury

However, I find atheism absurd. Believing in (a) God(s)'s non-existance is as pointless as believing in their existance.

Here is where your post falls apart. Atheists, by definition, don't believe in a god. That doesn't mean they have to believe in the non-existence of a god. If you'll read through the thread, you'll find that most, if not all atheists here do acknowledge the possibility of some divine being. I've said it before and I'll say it again: agnosticism is not a belief system! If you aren't sure if a god exists, then you don't actively believe in one. You are de facto atheist. The alternative would be if you believe in a god of some sort, but aren't sure if it's the right god. Then you are de facto theist.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Atheists, by definition, don't believe in a god. That doesn't mean they have to believe in the non-existence of a god.

This is where I was wrong it seems. I thought the two (agnosticism and atheism) as two differen notions, seperate from eachother.

I suppose that is so due to my views about belief (i.e. that belief or disbelief about something unknown or unknowable is absurd) thus rendering the definition atheism as narrow as "I believe god does not exist" but what I gather is that it includes the "Unsure" choice too.

You live you learn, I guess.

I also think that atheist's get a bad press. That we take the art & the beauty out of the world, when this is not true. I mean, the fact that the world is about 6 billion years old with about 4 million speices, and they all happened by accident. I think, is something more beautiful than any intelligent design.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

Some things never change eh? One thing I am happy to see is the fact that not one single atheist in this thread made that ridiculous statement, that they are atheist because they were born that way. I see the intelligence level has risen a bit here. Say it with me people. "Atheism is a choice" Nice, continue.

I was only ever not an Atheist on account of my parents bringing my to church and talking about jebuz and stuff.

I just chose not to be in any religion because religion is the cause of most of the hate and war in the world

Originally Posted by GabrielG

I just chose not to be in any religion because religion is the cause of most of the hate and war in the world

Nah. Somehow a lot of atheists keep repeating this, but I don't think it's such a strong argument. Besides extremist Muslims, there really aren't many religious groups who've caused a lot of bloodshed. Atheist regimes sure have caused a lot more (Hitler, Stalin, Mao). You would be better of being a buddhist rather than an atheist if that is what concerns you.

Originally Posted by Bowie

Nah. Somehow a lot of atheists keep repeating this, but I don't think it's such a strong argument. Besides extremist Muslims, there really aren't many religious groups who've caused a lot of bloodshed. Atheist regimes sure have caused a lot more (Hitler, Stalin, Mao). You would be better of being a buddhist rather than an atheist if that is what concerns you.

Yes, if you forget the Crusades, the Holy Inquisition and the Black Death to name a few.
(the plague reached such propotions because cats were considered evil and thus killed, so the rats grew uncontrolled)

Also, I don't get where you gather that Hitler, Stalin, or Mao were atheists. Hitler for one, talked many times about a Creator. Regardless, what is important is that they didn't not wage wars in the name of atheism, which would be absurd. Religion, however, has done so many many times before.

Originally Posted by windsfury

Yes, if you forget the Crusades, the Holy Inquisition and the Black Death to name a few.
(the plague reached such propotions because cats were considered evil and thus killed, so the rats grew uncontrolled)

Also, I don't get where you gather that Hitler, Stalin, or Mao were atheists. Hitler for one, talked many times about a Creator. Regardless, what is important is that they didn't not wage wars in the name of atheism, which would be absurd. Religion, however, has done so many many times before.

I agree, they did not wage wars in the name of atheism. What I meant to say was that religion is not anymore a cause of wars and death than money, power, territory, ideology and so forth. The two world wars and communist regimes in Russia and China killed hundreds of millions of people, and both had nothing to do with religion. (Stalin and Mao were most likely atheist, at least they both shut down religious institutes as much as they could, Hitler, I agree, is still debatable.) The inquisition and the crusades killed hundreds of thousands of people. Still hundreds of thousands too much, but nowhere near the hundreds of millions I described before.

And I hope you realize that blaming christianity for the black death is quite ridiculous.

My point is that becoming an atheist because of the deaths christianity caused is a bit paradoxal.

Originally Posted by Bowie

And I hope you realize that blaming christianity for the black death is quite ridiculous.
.

It most surely is not. Well, not for the virus itself, that would actually be ridiculous, but for it's wide-spread disaster.

Cats were considered a servant of the Devil and such, during the Inquisistion, millions of domestic cats were murdered. Persecution had depleted the supply of domestic cats dramatically, leaving human grain stores unprotected when merchants brought the Plague from Asia to Europe in the form of ship rats with infectious fleas. Rats took over Europe, gobbling the grain and providing homes for the fleas that carried the Black Plague. Without the protection of domestic cats, the rat population multiplied exponentially. As a result, the Black Death spread rapidly, decimating Europe’s population. Additionally, many people suffered food poisoning due to rat droppings in their food supplies. Overall, people paid dearly for the slaughter of cats.

Those who kept cats as pets would have had a better chance of surviving the Black Death, as the rat populations around their homes would have been kept under control. However, despite the role that cats played in helping to prevent the Black Death, people in Europe continued to murder cats for another 300 years. Thus, Europeans were particularly vulnerable when the Plague swept through again in the 1600s.

Anyway, I agree with you that becoming an atheist because of the crimes of religion, or rather, people in the name or religion have commited is a rather weak reason,(after all these crimes were created by man, not some god) it is, or was, often the reason people began to question the value of organised religion.

When people state that this world would be better without (organised) religion, a view that i often share, and clain the many crimes that have been commited in the name of some god would have been avoided, they don't imply that people commit such heinous acts only for these reasons. They usually just claim that this specific kind of hate, fanatism, war and manipulation would not exist.

Of course people would still harbor hatred, fanatism, war and be manipulated by other means, be it goverments or whatnot unless they get proper education. But that is off-topic.

^^ this is why religion is evil.