Thread: DMT and pineal gland.

I don't remember where I read it but I do recall something about dosages in relation to recall of experience as well as amounts of DMT produced by the pineal gland and dream recall. It stated that the more DMT ingested/created the less likely your ability to recall will be-something about DMT being a safety mechanism for birth and death and avoiding psychotic breaks during our conscious periods. Which sort of makes sense to me, if you smoke too much DMT you will black out and not have a recall of the experience and I don't know of anyone remembering coming through the birth canal. I think this was either Shulgin or Mckenna's writings.

The where referring to the book "DMT The spirit molecule" from Rick Strassman.
the assumption that dmt causes dreams goes directly against the assumption that lack of serotonin results in dreams.. besides this book i can find no source claiming dmt is produced by the pineal gland, and the above book just claims its possibility to theoretically produce it.

take this clip..it is a short and funny explenation of the common perception of the function of dmt in our body
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grcqs9cDuN8

but nowhere i can find real scientific data confirming this.

I have access to lots of scientific journals through my university so I figured I'd take a look around as well. I looked over a handful of biology/neuroscience articles and could find no scientific support for this hypothesis either. The articles I found related to the pineal gland mentioned DMT either briefly in passing or not at all, and the articles related to DMT said nothing about its production.

I did find one article which looks more promising ("Biogenesis of 5-methoxy-N, N-dimethyltryptamine in human pineal gland." RB Guchhait - J Neurochem, 1976) but for some reason I am not being allowed access to it. I put in a request for it and should be able to see it in a week or so, until then you may want to look for it if you can.

Originally Posted by DuB

I have access to lots of scientific journals through my university so I figured I'd take a look around as well. I looked over a handful of biology/neuroscience articles and could find no scientific support for this hypothesis either. The articles I found related to the pineal gland mentioned DMT either briefly in passing or not at all, and the articles related to DMT said nothing about its production.

I did find one article which looks more promising ("Biogenesis of 5-methoxy-N, N-dimethyltryptamine in human pineal gland." RB Guchhait - J Neurochem, 1976) but for some reason I am not being allowed access to it. I put in a request for it and should be able to see it in a week or so, until then you may want to look for it if you can.

ooh ooh ooh! *jitters like a kid in a candy store* that sounds like it may be and interesting read. If none of us can find it please share.

Ever heard that Joe Rogan (host of fear factor) interview where he talks about DMT? He knows quite a bit about it.

http://www.livevideo.com/video/Banne...rogan-dmt.aspx

yeah, I've heard him talk about it. It's great how enthusiastic about it he is

That was what pipo linked to.

Originally Posted by jahnauasca

ooh ooh ooh! *jitters like a kid in a candy store* that sounds like it may be and interesting read. If none of us can find it please share.

I've had a look through my universities journal subscriptions online, unfortunatly wasnt able to get this article.

I'll browse through some other similar ones though, see if I can find any more info on the subject

Thanks alot for checking into this. The title indeed sounds very promising.
I'wasnt able to get access from campus though..they made it so that only from within the university you can connect. This used to be possible from campus as well
I'll have to ask around..at least you geve me something concrete to search for. Thanx again

Here's a link to Wikipedia that talks about the Pineal Gland. Apparantly, it has not yet been proven whether or not the Pineal Gland produces DMT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphysis_cerebri

yeah, the Pineal gland/DMT connection is all guesses and theories, there's no evidence towards or against it.

But DMT is produced somewhere in the brain isn't it?

Several speculative and as yet untested hypotheses suggest that endogenous DMT, produced in the human brain, is involved in certain psychological and neurological states. As DMT is naturally produced in small amounts in the brains and other tissues of humans, and other mammals,[11] some believe it plays a role in promoting the visual effects of natural dreaming, and also near-death experiences and other mystical states. A biochemical mechanism for this was proposed by the medical researcher J. C. Callaway, who suggested in 1988 that DMT might be connected with visual dream phenomena, where brain DMT levels are periodically elevated to induce visual dreaming and possibly other natural states of mind.[12]

Dr. Rick Strassman, while conducting DMT research in the 1990s at the University of New Mexico, advanced the theory that a massive release of DMT from the pineal gland prior to death or near death was the cause of the near death experience (NDE) phenomenon. Several of his test subjects reported NDE-like audio or visual hallucinations. His explanation for this was the possible lack of panic involved in the clinical setting and possible dosage differences between those administered and those encountered in actual NDE cases.

Several subjects also reported contact with 'other beings', alien like, insectoid and reptilian in nature, in technological environments[6] where the subjects were 'probed', 'tested' and sometimes even 'manipulated' by these 'beings' (see Abduction phenomenon).

In the 1950s, the endogenous production of psychoactive agents was considered to be a potential explanation for the hallucinatory symptoms of some psychiatric diseases as the transmethylation hypothesis.[13] (see also adrenochrome). Unfortunately, this hypothesis does not account for the natural presence of endogenous DMT in otherwise normal humans, rats and other laboratory animals. The proposal by Dr. Callaway was, however, the first to suggest a useful function for the endogenous production of DMT: to facilitate the visual phenomenon of normal dreaming.

Ethical concerns do not allow for the testing of this hypothesis in humans, as the biological samples must come from the living human brain.

Writers on DMT include Terence McKenna and Jeremy Narby, though most scientists who study psychedelic drugs treat their writings with skepticism. McKenna writes of his experiences with DMT in which he encounters entities he describes as "Self-Transforming Machine Elves". McKenna believed DMT to be a tool that could be used to enhance communication and allow for communication with other-worldly entities. Other users report visitation from external intelligences attempting to impart information. These Machine Elf experiences are said to be shared by many DMT users. From a researcher's perspective, perhaps best known is Rick Strassman's DMT: The Spirit Molecule (ISBN 0-89281-927-8);[14] Strassman speculated that DMT is made in the pineal gland, largely because the necessary constituents (see methyltransferases) needed to make DMT are found in the pineal gland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethy...e#Speculations

Yeah, in extremely small amounts

I believe Joe Rogan mentions the Rick Strassman book. I have been meaning to pick that up for a while, but I keep forgetting. btw, I like the name Elis D.

I believe Joe Rogan mentions the Rick Strassman book. I have been meaning to pick that up for a while, but I keep forgetting.

Wow, funny I should stumble on to this post - I recently checked the book out of the library and am currently reading it. I'm not one to read much, but I'm enjoying this book so far. It's well structured and easy to follow (don't have to be a physician to understand it).

In 1970 Congress banned the use of all psychedelics so it made it difficult for people to get permission by the FDA and such to experiment with it. So, it makes sense you're having difficulty finding papers on the topic.

However, he does mention a Dr. Stephen Szára who did some tests in the 50's - you might want to look him up.

Oh, and there's a radio clip in which Rogan discusses his experience - I'm sure you can find it if you google it.

So the book is worth picking up? Yea, I don't read much either but I read Stephen LaBerge's book pretty quick

Btw, the link to the video is posted twice in this thread.

It's great, DMT: The Spirit Molecule is the title... you could torrent the e-book version of it. I had to cause I'm poor as hell.

Originally Posted by pipo

First let me start by saying Hello, as this is my first post on the board.
(let me apologise in advance for my lack of english writing skills)

The prodcution of DMT in the pineal gland, and it's involvement in dreaming (and dying) is something i've never tried to verify before, as it seemed that it was obvious information (60% of goa has quote samples about it), and on idle google searches, most sources confirm this mechanism..

However..on closer examination i cant find more sources confirming this besides the original claims of Rick Strassman.

I'm no daily peer reviewed archive browser, so perhaps i missed it, so i guess my question is.. has anyone here found some peer reviewed research that confirms the production of DMT in the pineal gland during sleep and its involvement in dreams?

There is no proof that DMT is behind NDE and dreams. It's only a theory. There has been no studies to confirm or dismiss this theory because it sparks moral issues.

DMT is found in the human body because it is a matabolite of serotonin, but only in very small amounts. Personally, and this is coming from an experienced ayahuasca user and lucid dreamer, I do not think DMT is responsible for dreams, OBEs or NDEs. It could be responsible for other natural mystical experiences, but the DMT experience is far to distorted and foggy to be the cause of dreams, OBEs and NDEs, which are usually pretty clear headed, at least when compared to a full fledged DMT experience. I suppose its possible though...

Originally Posted by Elis D.

It's great, DMT: The Spirit Molecule is the title... you could torrent the e-book version of it. I had to cause I'm poor as hell.

Oh snap i forgot about that book. I have the e-book.
Guess i should start reading again....hmmm where to start? i rather read the intresting things to say then the whole thing.

Originally Posted by Flanders

hmmm where to start? i rather read the intresting things to say then the whole thing.

Well, I'm only about 5 chapters from finishing and to be honest there isn't a chapter I find worthy of skipping. You might want to skip the part about his troubles getting approval from the FDA and DEA to do the experiments - other than that he includes exerpts of everyone's trips in the following chapters.

You really have to cover them all to understand and see all the similarities between all the trips as a whole. Common themes, emotions, activities, etc.

Originally Posted by Wer

It could be responsible for other natural mystical experiences, but the DMT experience is far to distorted and foggy to be the cause of dreams, OBEs and NDEs, which are usually pretty clear headed, at least when compared to a full fledged DMT experience.

?? I can only go by what I read, but what you just stated, in my opinion, is quite the opposite. Dreams, OBE's and NDE's are "pretty clear headed"? Can't speak of OBE's and NDE's - but dreams sure as hell are not considered clear headed. "Weird" is a very common word people use when discussing a dream.

I've never tried DMT (would like to someday), but again, from what I've read in this book those who have gone on a full trip of it are pretty much convinced the experience was real, as in not dream-like. Or maybe that's what you meant in the first place, that DMT is not like a dream. Not because of it's distortion and foggyness, but because of how clear it actually is?

I've heard this theory which I find a highly likely theory many times before. Haven't found any solid backing up scintific test results of this hough, but think: DMT is the strongest, most immersive Psychedelic Alkaloid and it is Endogenous to the human body, being Created in and Secreted from the Pineal Gland. DMT effects are: Onset;Profound Visual Hallucinations of vast, intricate Geometric patternswirls(Hypnagogia), True "Visions" of continuity(Dreams), Other worlds(Dreamcenes) and Other worldly beings contacting you(DreamCharacters).

Maybe an interresting way to test the theory of DMT induced visions being what we know as Dreams is to Ingest a longworking MAO-Inhibitor before bedtime that will work throughout the night. MAO-Inhibitors are substances found in one of the plants used to brew Ayahuasca, The other Plant Containing DMT. The MAO-Inhibitors inhibit the MAO enzyme in the human stomach; An enzme that otherwise would destroy DMT's moleculair structure before taking it up into the blood stream, making DMT on it's own orally inactive. By this inhibition DMT is allowed into the bloodstream and stays there as long as the enzymatic breakdown is inhibited by the MAO-Inhibitors.

If Dreaming is indeed a DMT-induced nightly Vision, then Drinking a Tea of Long acting MAO-Inhibitors right before bedtime would result in ayahuasca like Visions in the night instead of ordinairy nightly Dreams. When working with MAO-Inhibitors (You can buy dried herbs and plants that contain them like; Syrian Rue & Banisteriopsis Caapi ) be carefull though as they can be harmfull in combination with many drugs/prescription/over the counter-medications, and regulair otherwise innocent dayly Foods and Drinks; A fasting of about 3 days prior and after ingestion of Ayahuasca or a MAO-Inhibitor is advised. A list of Drugs/Meds&Foods to be avoided can be easily found on the web.

Originally Posted by wer

There is no proof that DMT is behind NDE and dreams. It's only a theory. There has been no studies to confirm or dismiss this theory because it sparks moral issues.

DMT is found in the human body because it is a matabolite of serotonin, but only in very small amounts. Personally, and this is coming from an experienced ayahuasca user and lucid dreamer, I do not think DMT is responsible for dreams, OBEs or NDEs. It could be responsible for other natural mystical experiences, but the DMT experience is far to distorted and foggy to be the cause of dreams, OBEs and NDEs, which are usually pretty clear headed, at least when compared to a full fledged DMT experience. I suppose its possible though...

I have no evidence to say otherwise about OBE's and dreams, but I do believe DMT is the cause of NDEs. DMT is proven to be released into the brain during birth and during death (correct me if I'm wrong). It is easy to see this specific connection. Also, my buddy smoked it and freaked out thinking he was dieing because no one told him what it was. I was also offered it, but I turned it down because I didn't know what it was. I would however like to learn more about the link between DMT and serotonin!

Originally Posted by SKA

If Dreaming is indeed a DMT-induced nightly Vision, then Drinking a Tea of Long acting MAO-Inhibitors right before bedtime would result in ayahuasca like Visions in the night instead of ordinairy nightly Dreams. When working with MAO-Inhibitors (You can buy dried herbs and plants that contain them like; Syrian Rue & Banisteriopsis Caapi ) be carefull though as they can be harmfull in combination with many drugs/prescription/over the counter-medications, and regulair otherwise innocent dayly Foods and Drinks; A fasting of about 3 days prior and after ingestion of Ayahuasca or a MAO-Inhibitor is advised. A list of Drugs/Meds&Foods to be avoided can be easily found on the web.

Sorry for double post. I was unable to edit. Anywho, if this were to work. That would mean that it comes from the brain and goes into the stomach. MAO wouldn't affect it otherwise would it?

Originally Posted by CiD

I have no evidence to say otherwise about OBE's and dreams, but I do believe DMT is the cause of NDEs. DMT is proven to be released into the brain during birth and during death (correct me if I'm wrong). It is easy to see this specific connection. Also, my buddy smoked it and freaked out thinking he was dieing because no one told him what it was. I was also offered it, but I turned it down because I didn't know what it was. I would however like to learn more about the link between DMT and serotonin!

Actually, it has not been proven that DMT is released during birth and death. Once again, this is only a theory. The chemical structure of DMT is almost identical to serotonin. Wikipedia will tell you everything you need to know (just search for "dmt" or "serotonin"). BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL WHEN USING THIS SUBSTANCE! I thought I would be able to handle a high dose of ayahuasca (a dose high enough to be compared to a smoked DMT experience... except for the onset of course), but felt like a fool when I couldn't walk, couldn't talk, and had to experience that I was actually just a random collection of memories, picked up habits and language, and emotions (I know this sounds like ego loss, but it wasn't. My ego was still there, just extremely mixed up). I already knew this about myself, and had experienced a complete absence of these aspects of myself before in earlier experiences with DXM (and loved it), but on DMT all these things still were still there and applied to me and affected who I was, but it was so mixed up that I couldn't comprehend anything because of it. For example, any memories or emotions I would normally associate with a ceiling fan where replaced with other random parts of myself that had nothing to do with my perception of a ceiling fan. My idea of who I was was replaced with random thoughts, memories and emotions. Because of this I felt like all my soul consisted of was random thoughts, emotions and memories (afterwards I realized it was simply my ego). I had to face the illusion of who I was (whereas on DXM these illusions were not even there to face). It was terrifying. The first 30 minutes where total bliss however. I was twisting on the floor in a random slur of thoughts and emotions, laughing and making ridiculous sounds. The first 30 minutes felt like I was pure emotion, similar to how simple a newborn baby's mind would be. It was only when I realized that I had lost myself when my trip went downhill. I tried to grasp reality but couldn't, and all I wanted was my sense of reality back. Excuse me if this was hard to understand. It is very difficult to describe the experience. Because I couldn't perceive reality the way I was supposed to, I felt like I was trapped in my own head (I suppose we are all always trapped in our own heads... but you can see what I'm saying). I was trapped in a brain that couldn't think, or at least couldn't think sanely. Its easy to see how one could feel insane on DMT.

The experience taught me a lot, but it was a tough lesson.

?? I can only go by what I read, but what you just stated, in my opinion, is quite the opposite. Dreams, OBE's and NDE's are "pretty clear headed"? Can't speak of OBE's and NDE's - but dreams sure as hell are not considered clear headed. "Weird" is a very common word people use when discussing a dream.

I've never tried DMT (would like to someday), but again, from what I've read in this book those who have gone on a full trip of it are pretty much convinced the experience was real, as in not dream-like. Or maybe that's what you meant in the first place, that DMT is not like a dream. Not because of it's distortion and foggyness, but because of how clear it actually is?

The DMT experience is foggy, because, at least for me and a few friends who have done it, a high dose of DMT basically takes all of your thoughts, emotions and perceptions (conscious and unconscious), and releases them all at once with overwhelming intensity (as I mentioned above). Everything is completely mixed up.

However, I suppose it is possible that DMT could be responsible for dreams. The way someone perceives the effects of DMT when unconscious would be pretty different then the way they would perceive it when conscious. But still, I highly doubt it. The effects are similar, yes, but the same? No, at least not when your conscious and on it. Regular dreams are not clear headed (when compared to waking life), but what about lucid dreams? I mean, some lucid dreams can be disorienting, but occasionally you will get a lucid where you are completely conscious and can think pretty normally.

When I said dreams were clear headed in my last post, I was speaking relative to the effects of DMT. In a dream, or most at least, you have a sense of individuality and know who your are. On DMT, chances are you will not. I've never had any dream like hallucinations on DMT. The visuals tends to be geometric patterns, crazy designs and extensions of reality (shifting walls, trailers, after images, moving patterns on the carpet), although some people report seeing "entities" on it. What I'm trying to say is that the theory DMT plays a part in dreams is conceivable to me, but dreams have always seemed far more amazing to me then even the strongest DMT trip I've ever had. DMT has always felt far more unnatural to me then dreams, like its inducing its insights in all the wrong ways, or at least its effects were not meant to be experienced when your conscious.