Thread: DMT and pineal gland.

First let me start by saying Hello, as this is my first post on the board.
(let me apologise in advance for my lack of english writing skills)

The prodcution of DMT in the pineal gland, and it's involvement in dreaming (and dying) is something i've never tried to verify before, as it seemed that it was obvious information (60% of goa has quote samples about it), and on idle google searches, most sources confirm this mechanism..

However..on closer examination i cant find more sources confirming this besides the original claims of Rick Strassman.

I'm no daily peer reviewed archive browser, so perhaps i missed it, so i guess my question is.. has anyone here found some peer reviewed research that confirms the production of DMT in the pineal gland during sleep and its involvement in dreams?

I don't remember where I read it but I do recall something about dosages in relation to recall of experience as well as amounts of DMT produced by the pineal gland and dream recall. It stated that the more DMT ingested/created the less likely your ability to recall will be-something about DMT being a safety mechanism for birth and death and avoiding psychotic breaks during our conscious periods. Which sort of makes sense to me, if you smoke too much DMT you will black out and not have a recall of the experience and I don't know of anyone remembering coming through the birth canal. I think this was either Shulgin or Mckenna's writings.

The where referring to the book "DMT The spirit molecule" from Rick Strassman.
the assumption that dmt causes dreams goes directly against the assumption that lack of serotonin results in dreams.. besides this book i can find no source claiming dmt is produced by the pineal gland, and the above book just claims its possibility to theoretically produce it.

take this clip..it is a short and funny explenation of the common perception of the function of dmt in our body
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grcqs9cDuN8

but nowhere i can find real scientific data confirming this.

I have access to lots of scientific journals through my university so I figured I'd take a look around as well. I looked over a handful of biology/neuroscience articles and could find no scientific support for this hypothesis either. The articles I found related to the pineal gland mentioned DMT either briefly in passing or not at all, and the articles related to DMT said nothing about its production.

I did find one article which looks more promising ("Biogenesis of 5-methoxy-N, N-dimethyltryptamine in human pineal gland." RB Guchhait - J Neurochem, 1976) but for some reason I am not being allowed access to it. I put in a request for it and should be able to see it in a week or so, until then you may want to look for it if you can.

Originally Posted by DuB

I have access to lots of scientific journals through my university so I figured I'd take a look around as well. I looked over a handful of biology/neuroscience articles and could find no scientific support for this hypothesis either. The articles I found related to the pineal gland mentioned DMT either briefly in passing or not at all, and the articles related to DMT said nothing about its production.

I did find one article which looks more promising ("Biogenesis of 5-methoxy-N, N-dimethyltryptamine in human pineal gland." RB Guchhait - J Neurochem, 1976) but for some reason I am not being allowed access to it. I put in a request for it and should be able to see it in a week or so, until then you may want to look for it if you can.

ooh ooh ooh! *jitters like a kid in a candy store* that sounds like it may be and interesting read. If none of us can find it please share.

Ever heard that Joe Rogan (host of fear factor) interview where he talks about DMT? He knows quite a bit about it.

http://www.livevideo.com/video/Banne...rogan-dmt.aspx

Originally Posted by jahnauasca

ooh ooh ooh! *jitters like a kid in a candy store* that sounds like it may be and interesting read. If none of us can find it please share.

I've had a look through my universities journal subscriptions online, unfortunatly wasnt able to get this article.

I'll browse through some other similar ones though, see if I can find any more info on the subject

Originally Posted by pipo

First let me start by saying Hello, as this is my first post on the board.
(let me apologise in advance for my lack of english writing skills)

The prodcution of DMT in the pineal gland, and it's involvement in dreaming (and dying) is something i've never tried to verify before, as it seemed that it was obvious information (60% of goa has quote samples about it), and on idle google searches, most sources confirm this mechanism..

However..on closer examination i cant find more sources confirming this besides the original claims of Rick Strassman.

I'm no daily peer reviewed archive browser, so perhaps i missed it, so i guess my question is.. has anyone here found some peer reviewed research that confirms the production of DMT in the pineal gland during sleep and its involvement in dreams?

There is no proof that DMT is behind NDE and dreams. It's only a theory. There has been no studies to confirm or dismiss this theory because it sparks moral issues.

DMT is found in the human body because it is a matabolite of serotonin, but only in very small amounts. Personally, and this is coming from an experienced ayahuasca user and lucid dreamer, I do not think DMT is responsible for dreams, OBEs or NDEs. It could be responsible for other natural mystical experiences, but the DMT experience is far to distorted and foggy to be the cause of dreams, OBEs and NDEs, which are usually pretty clear headed, at least when compared to a full fledged DMT experience. I suppose its possible though...

Originally Posted by wer

There is no proof that DMT is behind NDE and dreams. It's only a theory. There has been no studies to confirm or dismiss this theory because it sparks moral issues.

DMT is found in the human body because it is a matabolite of serotonin, but only in very small amounts. Personally, and this is coming from an experienced ayahuasca user and lucid dreamer, I do not think DMT is responsible for dreams, OBEs or NDEs. It could be responsible for other natural mystical experiences, but the DMT experience is far to distorted and foggy to be the cause of dreams, OBEs and NDEs, which are usually pretty clear headed, at least when compared to a full fledged DMT experience. I suppose its possible though...

I have no evidence to say otherwise about OBE's and dreams, but I do believe DMT is the cause of NDEs. DMT is proven to be released into the brain during birth and during death (correct me if I'm wrong). It is easy to see this specific connection. Also, my buddy smoked it and freaked out thinking he was dieing because no one told him what it was. I was also offered it, but I turned it down because I didn't know what it was. I would however like to learn more about the link between DMT and serotonin!

Originally Posted by CiD

I have no evidence to say otherwise about OBE's and dreams, but I do believe DMT is the cause of NDEs. DMT is proven to be released into the brain during birth and during death (correct me if I'm wrong). It is easy to see this specific connection. Also, my buddy smoked it and freaked out thinking he was dieing because no one told him what it was. I was also offered it, but I turned it down because I didn't know what it was. I would however like to learn more about the link between DMT and serotonin!

Actually, it has not been proven that DMT is released during birth and death. Once again, this is only a theory. The chemical structure of DMT is almost identical to serotonin. Wikipedia will tell you everything you need to know (just search for "dmt" or "serotonin"). BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL WHEN USING THIS SUBSTANCE! I thought I would be able to handle a high dose of ayahuasca (a dose high enough to be compared to a smoked DMT experience... except for the onset of course), but felt like a fool when I couldn't walk, couldn't talk, and had to experience that I was actually just a random collection of memories, picked up habits and language, and emotions (I know this sounds like ego loss, but it wasn't. My ego was still there, just extremely mixed up). I already knew this about myself, and had experienced a complete absence of these aspects of myself before in earlier experiences with DXM (and loved it), but on DMT all these things still were still there and applied to me and affected who I was, but it was so mixed up that I couldn't comprehend anything because of it. For example, any memories or emotions I would normally associate with a ceiling fan where replaced with other random parts of myself that had nothing to do with my perception of a ceiling fan. My idea of who I was was replaced with random thoughts, memories and emotions. Because of this I felt like all my soul consisted of was random thoughts, emotions and memories (afterwards I realized it was simply my ego). I had to face the illusion of who I was (whereas on DXM these illusions were not even there to face). It was terrifying. The first 30 minutes where total bliss however. I was twisting on the floor in a random slur of thoughts and emotions, laughing and making ridiculous sounds. The first 30 minutes felt like I was pure emotion, similar to how simple a newborn baby's mind would be. It was only when I realized that I had lost myself when my trip went downhill. I tried to grasp reality but couldn't, and all I wanted was my sense of reality back. Excuse me if this was hard to understand. It is very difficult to describe the experience. Because I couldn't perceive reality the way I was supposed to, I felt like I was trapped in my own head (I suppose we are all always trapped in our own heads... but you can see what I'm saying). I was trapped in a brain that couldn't think, or at least couldn't think sanely. Its easy to see how one could feel insane on DMT.

The experience taught me a lot, but it was a tough lesson.

?? I can only go by what I read, but what you just stated, in my opinion, is quite the opposite. Dreams, OBE's and NDE's are "pretty clear headed"? Can't speak of OBE's and NDE's - but dreams sure as hell are not considered clear headed. "Weird" is a very common word people use when discussing a dream.

I've never tried DMT (would like to someday), but again, from what I've read in this book those who have gone on a full trip of it are pretty much convinced the experience was real, as in not dream-like. Or maybe that's what you meant in the first place, that DMT is not like a dream. Not because of it's distortion and foggyness, but because of how clear it actually is?

The DMT experience is foggy, because, at least for me and a few friends who have done it, a high dose of DMT basically takes all of your thoughts, emotions and perceptions (conscious and unconscious), and releases them all at once with overwhelming intensity (as I mentioned above). Everything is completely mixed up.

However, I suppose it is possible that DMT could be responsible for dreams. The way someone perceives the effects of DMT when unconscious would be pretty different then the way they would perceive it when conscious. But still, I highly doubt it. The effects are similar, yes, but the same? No, at least not when your conscious and on it. Regular dreams are not clear headed (when compared to waking life), but what about lucid dreams? I mean, some lucid dreams can be disorienting, but occasionally you will get a lucid where you are completely conscious and can think pretty normally.

When I said dreams were clear headed in my last post, I was speaking relative to the effects of DMT. In a dream, or most at least, you have a sense of individuality and know who your are. On DMT, chances are you will not. I've never had any dream like hallucinations on DMT. The visuals tends to be geometric patterns, crazy designs and extensions of reality (shifting walls, trailers, after images, moving patterns on the carpet), although some people report seeing "entities" on it. What I'm trying to say is that the theory DMT plays a part in dreams is conceivable to me, but dreams have always seemed far more amazing to me then even the strongest DMT trip I've ever had. DMT has always felt far more unnatural to me then dreams, like its inducing its insights in all the wrong ways, or at least its effects were not meant to be experienced when your conscious.

Ok, I'm on a bit of a busy schedule and am unable to really research this as much as I would like, and this is probably a dumb question.....but....What do you think would happen if you smoke serotonin?

It wouldn't pass the brain/blood barrier...nothing would happen.

Originally Posted by CiD

Ok, I'm on a bit of a busy schedule and am unable to really research this as much as I would like, and this is probably a dumb question.....but....What do you think would happen if you smoke serotonin?

Assuming it passed the BBB, you would probably cause yourself serotonin syndrome or some very odd emotional and homeostatic dysregulatory effects. Just because serotonin is implicated in many of the processes during altered states of consciousness and drugs that share a somewhat similar structure can cause psychedelia doesn't mean you could even hope to achieve the same effect with serotonin alone. To believe so, and I'm not trying to sound condescending here, shows a glaring lack of understanding when it comes to pharmacology and neurochemistry. There are different serotonin receptor subsets in the brain, and even the same subsets in different parts of the brain will cause different effects and also in varying amounts. Looking to use serotonin itself as a psychedelic makes zero sense (assuming that was what you were asking for, sorry if it wasn't).

Joe Rogan and the Rick Strassman book are both the equivalent of what cosmologists are to actual physicists. Cosmology is not a science, it is creative and hopeful conjecture based loosely on scientific laws, theories, and observations that may or may not be even remotely close to turning out true or even partially true. To put it bluntly, it is wishful thinking.

When Rick Strassman (and then by the same token Joe Rogan, since he talks so much about what he's read from the book and pretty much does no other research into the matter) formed the hypothesis that DMT is synthesized in the pineal and it was released during NDEs, periods of extreme stress, and when we are dreaming, it was nothing more than that. If anything, given there was almost no evidence found to back this hypothesis up, one could even say it was a lousy one based on wishful and fantastical thinking. Was it an interesting concept? Absolutely, and just because we have not been able to find anything conclusively yet does not mean it can't be possible, entirely. However, the evidence that we do have suggests that he only ventured as far as the first two steps of the scientific method (observation, then formulating a hypothesis) and for whatever reason felt the need to publish it along side more factual information, giving the general public who is rather unwilling to educate themselves on the subject and just spread the conjecture around as if it were fact something interesting to chew on, nothing more and nothing less. As you can see by this thread, and I have been able to see based off of what I hear others say, it definitely sent out the wrong message. It's the equivalent to me as hearing that LSD works because it is acid and when you take it, it goes to the bloodstream to the back of your neck under the cerebellum and causes your spine to bleed and that is why you trip, and then a scab forms and when you twist your neck, that is how you get flashbacks. Or even that shrooms only work because you are experiencing food poisoning. In either case you have rumors with no scientific basis or evidence whatsoever being spread around as common knowledge (the last two don't even make mention of the fact that any drugs or chemical interactions are taking place at all, I mean how ridiculous lol). The same goes for this Pineal/DMT Theory. It was a cool idea presented alongside somewhat factual information and observations in a book that lazy hippies and under-educated younger drug users took to be a fact as well, and then it become popular (incorrect) common knowledge.

I'm not 100% certain on this, but I'm thinking you jest end up breaking apart the molecule by smoking it, because biochemical neurotransmitters are delicate and complex which is why they're so hard to synthasize, which is why pharmaceutical companies synthesize chemicals that only only similar to the neurotransmitter (with the exception of epinephrine). I could be totally wrong on this though.

h ttps: //www .cottonwoodresearch . org /dmt-pineal-2013/

Delete spaces for link, I'm a new member so I can't post links till 3 days :/

Originally Posted by pipo

First let me start by saying Hello, as this is my first post on the board.
(let me apologise in advance for my lack of english writing skills)

The prodcution of DMT in the pineal gland, and it's involvement in dreaming (and dying) is something i've never tried to verify before, as it seemed that it was obvious information (60% of goa has quote samples about it), and on idle google searches, most sources confirm this mechanism..

However..on closer examination i cant find more sources confirming this besides the original claims of Rick Strassman.

I'm no daily peer reviewed archive browser, so perhaps i missed it, so i guess my question is.. has anyone here found some peer reviewed research that confirms the production of DMT in the pineal gland during sleep and its involvement in dreams?

I don't know if anyone will read this, or if this even helps. I found an academic study (about a year old), purporting to be peer-reviewed, on the topic of DMT being produced in the human brain.

www(dot)academia(dot)edu/1886921/Indolethylamine_N-methyltransferase_expression_in_primate_nervous_ti ssue

Huzzah! It only took 6 years to get an (possible) answer!

Originally Posted by jmC3PO

I don't know if anyone will read this, or if this even helps. I found an academic study (about a year old), purporting to be peer-reviewed, on the topic of DMT being produced in the human brain.

www(dot)academia(dot)edu/1886921/Indolethylamine_N-methyltransferase_expression_in_primate_nervous_ti ssue

Huzzah! It only took 6 years to get an (possible) answer!

It is relatively well known that it does exist endogenously within human brain tissue but its function is still a mystery and although there is a lot of information on its receptor affinities, it still does not reveal to us the function of it in the brain. Interesting to note is that, so far, it is the only known endogenous ligand for the sigma receptors, which at the moment are what as known as "orphan" receptors, because no endogenous ligand that seems to, during normal brain functioning, activate the receptors. So, it may have a part in activating sigma receptors, but even that right now is still a mystery.

Not trying to be a debby downer, but what you posted really only states that it can exist in nervous tissue and nothing more. To use this as evidence of its function or that because the enzyme that is capable of catalyzing it's synthesis exists in certain areas of the brain (which, by the way, enzymes catalyze the synthesis of more than one neurotransmitter/chemical, this just so happens to be one that can synthesize N,N-DMT) is proof that it is synthesized there is silly. It's the first step in doing so, but it is only the first step. Any conclusions beyond recognizing that they exist there are speculation at best.

You are smoking the freebase version of it, technically you are actually vaporizing it. If you vaporize it correctly, you do not burn the chemical or alter its structure in anyway, so unless you attempt smoking a salt form of it, chances are you are not damaging the molecule in anyway.