Thread: Reality As You Know It Does Not Exist

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Because consciousness does not exist lol, only the illusion of it.

It is just so stupidly arrogant to think the universe exists because of us.

How can you say that without knowing what consciousness is? Whatever it is that you believe is merely the illusion of consciousness, is consciousness itself. Perhaps you have illusions about what it is supposed to be, but that is about it.

No self respecting scientist is claiming that the universe exists because of us, and I don't think anyone in this thread is either, although perhaps some are. What is being claimed is that the Universe we perceive is created by us. There is a very profound difference here. What it boils down to is that we just don't know anything at all about the Universe outside of the aspect of it that we create through our perceptions, and therefore cannot make comment on what might be really there.

Originally Posted by Xei

I'm not so sure about that. The Copenhagen interpretation says pretty much this, and it's the most popular view of quantum mechanics. I think there have actually been some formal disproofs of 'hidden variable theories', too...

The Copenhagen interpretation does not say that uncertainty is intrinsic to reality. The basic principles suggested by the copenhagen interpretation is that our description of nature is probabilistic, not that nature itself is probabilistic, and that it is impossible to know all values in a system, not that they don't exist. I think you'll find that good scientists, especially those who are brave enough to venture into the realm of quantum physics, try as hard as possible to not say anything at all about the true nature of reality, but rather speak only about the ways in which we see it, or can see it.

A good source to read more about it is HERE, at the website for stanford university. Be sure to read section 5, 5. Misunderstandings of complementarity, as it directly addresses what we are talking about.

I think where we might be misunderstanding each other, also, is that I don't believe that the problem is merely a failing on our part and that we will eventually be able to measure both the speed and direction of a particle, or view it as both a wave and a particle at the same time. The uncertainty principle is intrinsic to our perception or our view of reality. All I'm saying is that our view of reality is all we are talking about, and not some unknowable objective reality as a whole.

What I mean by consciousness being an illusion is that consciousness isn't something magical, or something that changes reality in any way. Consciousness is just a biological tool which makes human beings more adaptable. It's ridiculous of human beings to think human beings are special because they are self-conscious. Consciousness doesn't break any laws of physics. We think of ourselves as one cohesive entity, but we are just a bunch of reactive matter, like the rest of the universe. That's what I mean when I say consciousness is an illusion.

Try to understand me before you criticize me next time.

How does consciousness help a species survive?

Thanks for the link Xaq, I'll read it.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

What I mean by consciousness being an illusion is that consciousness isn't something magical, or something that changes reality in any way. Consciousness is just a biological tool which makes human beings more adaptable. It's ridiculous of human beings to think human beings are special because they are self-conscious. Consciousness doesn't break any laws of physics. We think of ourselves as one cohesive entity, but we are just a bunch of reactive matter, like the rest of the universe. That's what I mean when I say consciousness is an illusion.

Try to understand me before you criticize me next time.

Read the second half of my response to you. Try to read before you resort to your signature abrasiveness next time.

Originally Posted by Cyclic13

Aren't "we" made of the same indiscernible probablistic quantum foam (subatomic particles) that make up the universe?

Quantum foam =/= subatomic particles. We are not made of quantum foam.

I actually had no problems with that part, so maybe that is the reason why I didn't refute it, don't you think? I reply to abrasiveness with abrasiveness. Your criticizing me was no milk&sugar you know.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

I actually had no problems with that part, so maybe that is the reason why I didn't refute it, don't you think? I reply to abrasiveness with abrasiveness. Your criticizing me was no milk&sugar you know.

I'm sorry you have such a problem with being criticized that you have to adopt such an angry tone to respond to it. What exactly offended you about the post in question? My post was meant to be one unit. Trying to refute the first part but not responding to the second just ignores how the second pertains to the first. I answered your response before you even posted, with the second half of my original post.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Quantum foam =/= subatomic particles. We are not made of quantum foam.

Technically, at the level of time of 10 to the power of -43, Planck time, the subatomic particles collapse into probabilistic waves which the quantum foam allows particles and energy to briefly come into existence, and then annihilate, without violating conservation laws.

Therefore, they do equal each other. There simply is no separation between the medium and the resulting particles.

The potentiality and resulting particles housed in the quantum foam is the foam.

And yes, we are also made of the same sub atomic particles as everything else...

"We" all come from the same source. "We" are the source.

The sorcerer of all sources.

"It must be somewhat above this level that our consciousness works, weaving probability waves into patterns and incarnating them in the receptive structure of our brains. Our being or spirit lives in this Quantum Foam, which is thus the Eternal Now, infinite in extent and a plenum of all possibilities. The patterns of everything that has been, that is now, and will come to be, exists latent in this quantum foam. Perhaps this is the realm though which the mystics stepped into timelessness, the eternal present, and sensed the omnipotence and omniscience of the spirit."

from Quantum Consciousness
Adam McLean

Originally Posted by Cyclic13

Technically, at the level of time of 10 to the power of -43, Planck time, the subatomic particles collapse into probabilistic waves which the quantum foam allows particles and energy to briefly come into existence, and then annihilate, without violating conservation laws.

Therefore, they do equal each other. There simply is no separation between the medium and the resulting particles.

The potentiality and resulting particles housed in the quantum foam is the foam.

And yes, we are also made of the same sub atomic particles as everything else...

"We" all come from the same source. "We" are the source.

The sorcerer of all sources.

"It must be somewhat above this level that our consciousness works, weaving probability waves into patterns and incarnating them in the receptive structure of our brains. Our being or spirit lives in this Quantum Foam, which is thus the Eternal Now, infinite in extent and a plenum of all possibilities. The patterns of everything that has been, that is now, and will come to be, exists latent in this quantum foam. Perhaps this is the realm though which the mystics stepped into timelessness, the eternal present, and sensed the omnipotence and omniscience of the spirit."

from Quantum Consciousness
Adam McLean

I'm not sure where you are getting your information from. Theoretical quantum foam for which there is no evidence could only exist in the vacuum of space, as the presence of mass causes decoherence. The particles that make up the human body are many (and I do mean many) orders of magnitude larger than any theoretical quantum foam fluctuations anyway, as are the particles that make up the particles.

As for the quote you posted, Adam Mclean is an author and alchemical scholar, not a scientist. That passage alone shows his complete lack of understanding when it comes to quantum mechanics. He has obviously borrowed the jargon in attempts at weaving together an intelligent sounding mysticism, but it has no connection to real science.

Show me where the separation between foam and the probability wave particles exist.

The something coming from the nothingness of the vacumn makes it an offshoot of the nothingness that spawned it.

They are integral aspects of one another.

The findings reached through quantum physics are that all separations or distinctions between "this" or "that" are just perceived separations and not actually separate which is why we have terms like non-locality.

Originally Posted by Cyclic13

Show me where the separation between foam and the probability wave particles exist.

The something coming from the nothingness of the vacumn makes it an offshoot of the nothingness that spawned it.

They are integral aspects of one another.

The findings reached through quantum physics are that all separations or distinctions between "this" or "that" are just perceived separations and not actually separate which is why we have terms like non-locality.

I don't even know what you're asking. "probability wave particles" don't exist. Quantum foam has never been observed so it may not exist. So far the difference is one doesn't exist and the other may or may not. I don't want to be rude, but it seems like you are taking terms and phrases and using them out of context without really knowing what they mean.

Nothing actually is both a wave and a particle. Thats part of the uncertainty principle. You can't observe a particle's position and velocity at the same time, and you can't observe something as both a wave and a particle at the same time. Its either one or the other, and once it is observed as a particle it stays that way.

Quantum foam on the other hand isn't (once again, if it exists) a wave at all, and can hardly be called particles either. On that scale, its really just 'bumpy' spacetime.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

How can you say that without knowing what consciousness is?

This was what offended me.

-

Well, two things on the other matter.
1) The second paragraph had nothing to do with the first one;
2) So you want me to refute something I actually agree with? Are you serious lol

So consciousness doesn't actually help a species survive?

LOL consciousness is an extension of intelligence. Being self-conscious allows a being to more intelligently choose things for itself (as in, things that will benefit them). Furthermore, consciousness helps in recognizing patterns, learning and being able to predict scenarios. Only conscious beings can enjoy music, you know.

Stop putting words on my mouth, EVERYONE. Oneironaut, Xei, The Cusp, Universal Mind, Cyclic... I can't believe I'me even wasting my time with people like you xD

If i put words in your mouth you might spit them out because they don't taste good.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

If i put words in your mouth you might spit them out because they don't taste good.

xD I LMAO