Thread: If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did all this stuff come from?

Originally Posted by Hercuflea

God is not subject to the laws of HIS OWN CREATION.

The question still stands...

Originally Posted by Hercuflea

Ok first of all, thanks for the insult, jerk. Second of all, I never said that I am automatically right, that guy is putting words in my mouth. I confess, my knowledge of physics and the universe is proportionate to the size of a handful of mud in the gulf of Thailand. But I do know that something cannot be made out of nothing. It is impossible. I don't fully deny and reject the theory that the universe is possibly expanding from a single point. It could be true, it could not be true, but i have not seen enough evidence to justify that theory.

I am not going to accept the notion that humans are just a sole little quirk, or stain upon the face of the earth that just happened to develop intelligence, and that there is nothing more out there that is more wise or capable than us. I think humans, so far, have proven that we can not possibly understand the mathematics and complexity that comprises even a single atom, much less of the entire known universe. I refuse to believe that we are a product of chance; here today, gone tomorrow, with no purpose.

Why is it impossible for something to have to be created and not come from nothing? stop thinking in those terms, people think something has to come from something because we as humans make something from something. The universe is far beyond our understanding, we are just scratching the surface pretty much. The universe is not something a human can make, the universe just is. You have to think outside the box, even if it is alittle out there.

Oh, and np.

Originally Posted by Hercuflea

God is not subject to the laws of HIS OWN CREATION.

But you just told me something cannot come from nothing.

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

The question still stands...

Yeah but not the way he presented it. If God is not subject to the laws of his own creation, then that means he may or may not have been created by something. I dont know, i havent thought that far into it, because frankly thats another problem for another dimension. But I do believe that there is a God and he did create this, as to his origins, I do not know.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

But you just told me something cannot come from nothing.

Thats true...in THIS plane of existence. God created this universe, so therefore he CREATED the laws of this universe. If he created the laws, then he cannot be subject to them because he is superior to his own creation. No matter, no energy can come from nothing. But God is not made out of matter or energy, as far as i know, and he certainly did not originate in this plane of existence

Originally Posted by Hercuflea

Thats true...in THIS plane of existence. God created this universe, so therefore he CREATED the laws of this universe. If he created the laws, then he cannot be subject to them because he is superior to his own creation. No matter, no energy can come from nothing. But God is not made out of matter or energy, as far as i know, and he certainly did not originate in this plane of existence

God was created by man a long time ago.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

God was created by man a long time ago.

I dont believe in that god. I agree that the Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc etc gods are all creations by man for the elite to excercise control over their subjects. I dont believe in any of them, but i do believe in an Almighty.

Congratulations on ignoring everything I just tried to tell you Hercuflea.

Why do you make these threads..? The only possibilities I can think of are either that you're testing your own powers of wilful ignorance, or you're trolling. You're not here to learn the answers to your questions, that much is clear.

Originally Posted by Hercuflea

Yeah but not the way he presented it. If God is not subject to the laws of his own creation, then that means he may or may not have been created by something. I dont know, i havent thought that far into it, because frankly thats another problem for another dimension. But I do believe that there is a God and he did create this, as to his origins, I do not know.

Dimensions are a mathematical concept. Mathematics is the product of the universe. How can you even discuss a god if he is apart from the universe in the sense you are using?

Your logic:

Things are created The universe was created

However when this is countered ala

Things are created The universe was created That creator must have a creator

You say that this supposed creator is not subject to the laws of this universe. However, in saying that, you are assuming that this universe is an isolate, and not derivative, of what is was created from, and therefore could not have been created by your supposed creator without being derivative of its own universe, as is evidenced by things created in this universe.

In other words, your argument requires us to take a huge, illogical step and assume things that cannot be proven in order to serve a certain mindset. I.e. it defeats itself.

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

Dimensions are a mathematical concept. Mathematics is the product of the universe. How can you even discuss a god if he is apart from the universe in the sense you are using?

Your logic:

Things are created The universe was created

However when this is countered ala

Things are created The universe was created That creator must have a creator

You say that this supposed creator is not subject to the laws of this universe. However, in saying that, you are assuming that this universe is an isolate, and not derivative, of what is was created from, and therefore could not have been created by your supposed creator without being derivative of its own universe, as is evidenced by things created in this universe.

In other words, your argument requires us to take a huge, illogical step and assume things that cannot be proven in order to serve a certain mindset. I.e. it defeats itself.

Not true...Yes, things are created. Yes, the universe was created. No, the creator does not necessarily need to have a creator because he is separate from this universe, and its laws do not apply to him. There are many theories to expound upon that, but that my basic belief. What's wrong with the universe being an isolate? The creator created the universe, and separated himself from it. Is that so hard to understand?

Originally Posted by Xei

Congratulations on ignoring everything I just tried to tell you Hercuflea.

Why do you make these threads..? The only possibilities I can think of are either that you're testing your own powers of wilful ignorance, or you're trolling. You're not here to learn the answers to your questions, that much is clear.

I not being willfully ignorant. I'm trying to understand the reasoning of people like you who believe that the universe began as a single point. Im not even fully opposed to that idea. But, i am opposed to the idea that that single point of matter came into existence by its own power.

So tell me again, where did all of the matter in the universe come from? How did it come to be?

Originally Posted by Hercuflea

I dont believe in that god. I agree that the Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc etc gods are all creations by man for the elite to excercise control over their subjects. I dont believe in any of them, but i do believe in an Almighty.

So...what is the difference between their gods and your god? besides different set of rules.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

So...what is the difference between their gods and your god? besides different set of rules.

Haha...their god is fake, mine is for real. I know that's really cliche.

No, my God is basically described in a book by Thomas Paine called "The Age of Reason." The book does have some scientific inaccuracies but theologically i have found it to be the most convincing argument I have ever heard for a Creator. Its a rather short book too, so it wont be too hard to read if you ever find the time or motivation.

I not being willfully ignorant. I'm trying to understand the reasoning of people like you who believe that the universe began as a single point. Im not even fully opposed to that idea. But, i am opposed to the idea that that single point of matter came into existence by its own power.

So tell me again, where did all of the matter in the universe come from? How did it come to be?

If you're not being wilfully ignorant then you're just a dense person. I've already told you: the only reason we think that the matter in the universe used to be concentrated into a tiny little point is due to the observation that the universe is expanding. That's all the Big Bang theory is.

I don't know where all of the matter came from, and I don't claim to. There must be an answer though, because I know, due to a thing called 'evidence', that it did historically happen.

There is, however, no empirical evidence that any 'higher being' put the matter there, and no logical reason to believe in such a being either, considering this would then give you the even harder problem of answering where the being came from. Of course, you could say it was self creating, but by that logic you might as well just cut the being out and say that the matter was self creating.

Unless you can give me a reason to believe in a creator I'm not going to. The same applies to any theory about how the matter came to be, including naturalistic ones.

You're missing part of that theory.

Matter can't be created or destroyed it can only change form
Matter came from energy. Strings vibrating at certain frequencies in 12 dimensions create matter (so we think)

Well, i cant convince you that there is a creator...but can I ask you a question.

You would, by the logic that there is no creator or higher being, believe that humans are the most rational, most wise, and most sensible creatures in the entire universe, would you not? Thats logically what follows, if you dont believe in a creator. Without "empirical evidence" of a creator, and without the fact that we have no "empirical evidence" of any other higher race or species than ourselves, we are the most advanced of anything in the entire universe.

I'd have to say that that is one sad shit story, if humans are actually the highest species in the universe, after all the crap we've pulled throughout our history.

Originally Posted by Xei

If you're not being wilfully ignorant then you're just a dense person. I've already told you: the only reason we think that the matter in the universe used to be concentrated into a tiny little point is due to the observation that the universe is expanding. That's all the Big Bang theory is.

I don't know where all of the matter came from, and I don't claim to. There must be an answer though, because I know, due to a thing called 'evidence', that it did historically happen.

There is, however, no empirical evidence that any 'higher being' put the matter there, and no logical reason to believe in such a being either, considering this would then give you the even harder problem of answering where the being came from. Of course, you could say it was self creating, but by that logic you might as well just cut the being out and say that the matter was self creating.

Unless you can give me a reason to believe in a creator I'm not going to. The same applies to any theory about how the matter came to be, including naturalistic ones.

Isn't this where we hope that machine that will make a blackhole will let us know and understand? i can't believe the name of it has left my mind. Some people claim if there is a god we would find a "god particle".

Originally Posted by ninja9578

You're missing part of that theory.

Matter can't be created or destroyed it can only change form
Matter came from energy. Strings vibrating at certain frequencies in 12 dimensions create matter (so we think)

Well once again, some people only think that they can create matter, but nobody knows for sure. I am basing my argument on tried and true principles that have been agreed upon for centuries, and that is that nothing can be created or destroyed, it can only change form. No, i didnt forget that part. I just dont think its really relevant because even if all of the matter did come from energy in the beginning, the question still remains, Where did all the energy come from?

Originally Posted by Hercuflea

Well, i cant convince you that there is a creator...but can I ask you a question.

You would, by the logic that there is no creator or higher being, believe that humans are the most rational, most wise, and most sensible creatures in the entire universe, would you not? Thats logically what follows, if you dont believe in a creator. Without "empirical evidence" of a creator, and without the fact that we have no "empirical evidence" of any other higher race or species than ourselves, we are the most advanced of anything in the entire universe.

I'd have to say that that is one sad shit story, if humans are actually the highest species in the universe, after all the crap we've pulled throughout our history.

The universe is far too big for us to be the only life in the universe. While there is no evidence for alien life, i doubt there is no other life besides us. More then bacteria on other planets, there is maybe other life forms somewhere much more advanced then us that you would not see in a Hollywood movie.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

The universe is far too big for us to be the only life in the universe. While there is no evidence for alien life, i doubt there is no other life besides us. More then bacteria on other planets, there is maybe other life forms somewhere much more advanced then us that you would not see in a Hollywood movie.

I dont doubt that. There are billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars, and many of the stars has a system of planets. Even if you visited a new solar system every hour for the rest of your life you wouldnt even scratch the surface.

Of course there is other life out there even though there may be no evidence for it. Im just basing what i said on the evidence that we have at our disposal

You would, by the logic that there is no creator or higher being, believe that humans are the most rational, most wise, and most sensible creatures in the entire universe, would you not? Thats logically what follows, if you dont believe in a creator. Without "empirical evidence" of a creator, and without the fact that we have no "empirical evidence" of any other higher race or species than ourselves, we are the most advanced of anything in the entire universe.

I'd have to say that that is one sad shit story, if humans are actually the highest species in the universe, after all the crap we've pulled throughout our history.

You can't rationally believe something because the alternative is 'sad'... you believe something based on whether it appears to be true or not. That's what I do anyway.

And no, I don't believe that humans are the most advanced species in the universe. We're probably the most intelligent on Earth with regards to cognitive abilities, but due to the vast number of planets out there (10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars are visible alone...) it's seems like a bit of a leap to assume that there are no other organisms out there more advanced than us, especially considering we don't progress in parallel; they could have been around for billions of years longer. Just look at how much progress we've made in the last 100.

Originally Posted by Hercuflea

Well, i cant convince you that there is a creator...but can I ask you a question.

You would, by the logic that there is no creator or higher being, believe that humans are the most rational, most wise, and most sensible creatures in the entire universe, would you not? Thats logically what follows, if you dont believe in a creator. Without "empirical evidence" of a creator, and without the fact that we have no "empirical evidence" of any other higher race or species than ourselves, we are the most advanced of anything in the entire universe.

I'd have to say that that is one sad shit story, if humans are actually the highest species in the universe, after all the crap we've pulled throughout our history.

You are mixing two completely unrelated concepts.

By logic, we can look at the factors that have (allegedly) birthed life on Earth - namely, distance from the sun, and the planetary composite - and look to the skies. We already know that there are plenty of planets out there that are "Earth-like" in size, distance from their star, etc. It is logical to assume that there is some kind of life out there in the universe, if due solely to the number of instances of "earth-like" planets that we already know exist - let alone those that probably exist.

Originally Posted by Xei

You can't rationally believe something because the alternative is 'sad'... you believe something based on whether it appears to be true or not. That's what I do anyway.

And no, I don't believe that humans are the most advanced species in the universe. We're probably the most intelligent on Earth with regards to cognitive abilities, but due to the vast number of planets out there (10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars are visible alone...) it's seems like a bit of a leap to assume that there are no other organisms out there more advanced than us, especially considering we don't progress in parallel; they could have been around for billions of years longer. Just look at how much progress we've made in the last 100.

Just imagine us today if we did not have the ice age.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Isn't this where we hope that machine that will make a blackhole will let us know and understand? i can't believe the name of it has left my mind. Some people claim if there is a god we would find a "god particle".

Hah, if I understand correctly you're talking about the LHC particle accelerator, which doesn't create blackholes and the "god particle" doesn't have anything to do with finding evidence of a god.

No offense meant, but your response reminded me of this Blackadder clip on how Baldrick explaines how the 1st World War started. Here is the link

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Hah, if I understand correctly you're talking about the LHC particle accelerator, which doesn't create blackholes and the "god particle" doesn't have anything to do with finding evidence of a god.

No offense meant, but your response reminded me of this Blackadder clip on how Baldricks explaines how the 1st World War started. Here is the link

That is what i would be talking about, thanks. From what i have read, it would create a black hole, but it's safe and will be contained, and alot of people were freaking out and going "it will suck the world in". I'll trust the experts over some crazy paranoid people saying the world is going to end.