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    Thread: Exploring Delta Sleep

    1. #126
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      Sageous, have you ever been able to pull off remaining conscious throughout an entire 8-hour sleep cycle like this? This thread is extremely interesting by the way.
      Last edited by MemeViews; 08-25-2016 at 11:56 PM.
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    2. #127
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      ^^ I've managed to maintain self-awareness throughout the night just a few times, and did so many years ago. I really don't try anymore, though, because it requires way too much time and effort on my part, and my Delta goals have sort of been refined away from needing a whole night to achieve (or at least approach) them.

      Still, I would highly recommend making the effort to succeed at it at least once. The work involved to do so includes the sort of mental prep and focus that will only help improve your LD'ing (in particularly WILD) skills.
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    3. #128
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Interesting stuff, Kenietz; thanks for sharing!



      Aside from dust motes in my eyes upon waking that can look like things floating in the room, and to which you are probably not referring, this has never happened to me. My wife, however, often awakens to imagery like this (and even more complex stuff sometimes); imagery that she insists is real for at least a few minutes. She does not practice any sort of Delta sleep exploration, though she does enjoy a lot of dream activity immediately upon falling asleep (probably thanks to a bit of narcolepsy) .

      In any case, though, I have a feeling that this stuff has nothing to do with your Delta explorations, if that is what you were implying. It probably has more to do with your conscious mind entering the waking world a few seconds before the rest of you, and some residual imagery might be lingering in your perception even after you've begun to perceive reality -- a little psychic feedback, as it were, and nothing more.
      I realise this is an old thread but I get those too, like I also read about your wife I fall asleep and dream quickly too. If I've had an intense or profound dream the 'dust' is more organised forming patterns or tubes, that interlock. I think of it as dream dust, though I sometimes see it in meditation too.... I've looked it up over the years but not many people seem to know what I'm talking about.

      I've been in this place a few times too, the first time I think it must have been at the start of a 'dream' I'll just c&p the first of my experiences here.

      Condensing clouds dream - from18 Jun 2016

      It was almost like I was meditating in the dream... I don't remember anything - no body or thoughts

      All of a suddenly thoughts retuned - The thoughts became physical and they started to condense into huge grey fluffy clouds the moment they hit the dream scape, it was really epic looking!

      I became more aware of myself I was watching the thoughts causing these huge storm clouds, I also became aware I was floating way out in a grey sea.

      I wasn't alone, but others were all a distance from me. I noticed the thoughts were also making waves..... the more extreme/unbalanced the thought the more I bobbed up and down on the sea and the bigger the waves I made.

      I herd a word that I thought was perhaps Samsara,

      but all morning walking the dog the word Samskara has been in my head.... I wasn't even sure if it was a word till I just googled it.


      That was the 'dream' I woke straight up from it too.
      My 2nd experience was when I accidentally blew myself our of a dream into it.
      Last edited by Dreammouse; 09-16-2016 at 06:20 PM.
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    4. #129
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      Greetings to you all!

      Delta and meditation

      I was doing pranayama (form of meditation practice I decided to try), counting excercise and entering delta state here is not simply complete physical relaxation, but I was not aware of body at all.

      So, it went like this: years back, for some 5-7 days every evening for almost an hour I was "doing my excercise" and that evening was the same, except for what happened. I was counting during breathing as usual, and suddenly I found myself in this strange void state. Nothing there. Continuing with counting my breath was no longer an option, since there was no breath at all, nothing moves, no sound... OMG - my body? Where is it? No sensation at all. Am I alive? I must be, since I am thinking this thoughts and asking this question and looking around me and seeing this ... I called it "starless space". ...

      So, this was during meditation. My first stuningly conscious excursion into this "area"...
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    5. #130
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      ^ Interesting. I remember that during one of my suspected lucid delta sleep episodes I got the impression that I had more or less an absence of body sensations. However, my sensory memory for the two such episodes I've had so far is fuzzy, so it's hard to remember clearly. What I did remember very clearly were the thoughts I had, but interestingly, I couldn't really remember the order of the thoughts nor how long I spent on each one. In other words, it seems my perception of time was also very “fuzzy” or even nonexistent—it was striking to realize afterwards that I had no clue at all how long the episode had lasted, whether it was just a couple of minutes or much longer, nor did I apparently even care at the time. That in particular was quite an interesting and unusual thing to experience.
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    6. #131
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      I have no problems with thinking process there. Maybe because I think in two basic ways (not counting the 'not-thinking' ) in the waking state, one is "normal" and the other I can't explain, like "background thinking", more intuitive (if it's the right way to describe it), like entering into subject and not thinking about it from external, but entering it and like simply realizing it. This other type seems to have no problem thinking in delta if I think (verbalize in my mind) there.

      Once I simply popped-out from my LD, from scene, outside of it into similar darkness (I've read later that some people call it void), but having no interest in staying or exploring that futher I spinned myself like a gyro back into same dream-scene.
      On another occasion when I DILD-ed (which is what I mostly do anyway when I do LD), I decided to simply sit and meditate. And at the same moment of my entering meditation, all scenery of my dream environment started dissolving. It looked like some rain of light-spots is falling and dissolving everything into itself, a bright light. I looked into that brightness with a bit sense of astonishment (I was supprised by this turn of events) for a moment (subjectively for several seconds), and then I woke up.

      I am also aware of the moments or phase, similar to what you Travis describe, when thoughts get for a moment fuzzy and actually mostly I can recall them but I rarely do that since they do not seem all that important in the first place. Usually I simply retrieve my focus and "breathe it" into and from and through that fuzzyness... It gets better :-)

      Not to jump over my head here, I would like to ask Sageous (or anyone who would like to give some feedback) and would appreciate some input if it is similar for him:

      Would you say that these what you call "delta-LD'S" (during consciouss falling asleep) seem more like mental, as if you can see the scenes but then again not really, as if there is dream-object there, you know it's there, you know its colours, shape, environment... but than again, all that is not actually vividly visible as real LD (or even ordinary dream)? Like some kind of attenuated image, sometimes even as you looked at it through some thick gray curtain.

      And there is another thing, as Sageous mentioned - "their energy is more significant than their content". Only when I don't delve into them and let them be, leave them in a way, there is energy. Otherwise, I just feel draind by either focusing on them, entering into them or play with this kind of dreaming (LD), if it at all is a part of delta-ld. Result for me is quite the same as if I have indulged (or fallen into) a very hard case of internal-verbalization episode (). It even seems to me that real delta-LD is going beyond these half-thought - half-vagely-visual(ized) imagery.

      Thanks for any futher input.
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    7. #132
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      Quote Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
      Not to jump over my head here, I would like to ask Sageous (or anyone who would like to give some feedback) and would appreciate some input if it is similar for him:

      Would you say that these what you call "delta-LD'S" (during conscious falling asleep) seem more like mental, as if you can see the scenes but then again not really, as if there is dream-object there, you know it's there, you know its colours, shape, environment... but than again, all that is not actually vividly visible as real LD (or even ordinary dream)? Like some kind of attenuated image, sometimes even as you looked at it through some thick gray curtain.
      Actually, no, I wouldn't say that. What you describe here sounds much more like dreamlets, which can occur during a WILD dive as you straddle the fence between wake and sleep. Dreamlets are basically bits of dream imagery that don't quite comprise the imagery you would get in an actual dream, and they are also perceived poorly by you because your mind, being that is still associating with waking-life perception as well, hasn't quite shifted into a mode meant to perceive dreams.

      What you described in your earlier, "delta meditation," post seems much closer to how I might describe the Delta experience, BTW.

      And there is another thing, as Sageous mentioned - "their energy is more significant than their content". Only when I don't delve into them and let them be, leave them in a way, there is energy. Otherwise, I just feel draind by either focusing on them, entering into them or play with this kind of dreaming (LD), if it at all is a part of delta-ld. Result for me is quite the same as if I have indulged (or fallen into) a very hard case of internal-verbalization episode (). It even seems to me that real delta-LD is going beyond these half-thought - half-vagely-visual(ized) imagery.
      I don't remember mentioning that bit about "their energy is more significant than their content," or in what context I was making the statement, but I probably was speaking metaphorically, and not talking about existent energy activity itself . Because dream content is essentially missing in delta, and because possibly the only "thing" present in Delta is your own consciousness/self-awareness, I suppose that the energy to which I was referring was that presence, and not a specific energy form. I know that wasn't what you were talking about, but I just wanted to be clear. [however, if I was talking about actual energy, maybe thought energy, let me know the post number so I can see what I really meant; I do have a tendency to contradict myself! ] That said:

      Yes, I could see how attempting to focus on dreamlets or HI during Delta could be draining, because you would in essence be be trying to organize perceptually chaotic information, information that by its nature refuses to be organized, probably due to the fact that your dreaming engines are currently at idle. It would be better for you, I think, to just let this stuff wander past. That said:

      I know in the past I have suggested that you can form dreams from such imagery, but if trying to do so truly exhausts you, it might not be worth the effort... just enjoy the peace of Delta's emptiness, and leave the imagery for your "normal" dream periods.
      Last edited by Sageous; 12-06-2016 at 04:49 AM.
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    8. #133
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      Thank you very much Sageous!

      You have answered more questions than I've actually asked, though, I was wandering what dreamlets (you all speak about) are. Its clear now (I hope ). Ever since I've became intensively aware of them, I did call those thingies 'delta-dreams' (in my thoughts) because for one, I did not now how other people have named them and secondly, they did for me appeared when my body is asleep and mind awake and almost especially and intensively during certain kind of excercises I attempted some five years ago.
      I saw them as I've tried to describe them in my previous post, mostly in the phase where my breath has already became, "sleeping breath" (breathing-patterns change when we (body) are sleeping of course). One and the same one appeared even before my teens and I saw it (always the same one) for years ahead (that's probably why I was so curiouss about them later.)

      I do not think of them as actual "delta-LD" (or clear delta lucidity), but a kind of obstacle to it since in some strange way, in my experience, they do open the doors and lead straight to internal-monologue (IM). During my awareness of this phase, I even had the impression that they actualy provide main subject for IM and the moment that self-awareness drops a little, automaticaly IM on that subject appears as train of thought, argument, memorized tid-bits...

      As for "energy" part in delta-lucidity ( first page on this thread post No8 ), yes I have noticed that you like to speak metaphorically.
      And from my experience (and theoretically also) I do agree with you wholly on this one. Totaly. I wasn't sure what these things I have been seeing are so I really wished for some more cleareness regarding imagery I described.

      I would also like to add that in or through what you call dreamlets there is also energy, this time more like actual energy-sensations (not tinglings nor something like that felt in the body while relaxing), sensations of pleasant-vibes or flows or balls (for lack of better words) I sense or feel when I become aware of a dreamlet and simply go (as if through it, or simply remain marginaly aware of it with a kind of peripheral attention) and hold more deeply and focus into self-awareness at that moment. At least, these are my experiences here.

      Yes, I do let it pass when they occur. It's really rather rare now anyway, but was rather intensive during the period some five-six years ago while I was experimenting with one specific metod or technique. It produced more downs than ups and some really strange (internal) stuff and experiences came out and consequentlly I almost had to "build-myself" and my-self-awareness from the scratch again.

      I could see how attempting to focus on dreamlets or HI during Delta could be draining, because you would in essence be be trying to organize perceptually chaotic information, information that by its nature refuses to be organized, probably due to the fact that your dreaming engines are currently at idle. It would be better for you, I think, to just let this stuff wander past.
      That might be also good advice for all others who try to enter delta-lucidity state and are either curiouss or investigative (at some point I believe most of us are) as I was about 'the nature of stuff' we experience in that, let's say 'pioneering area' of our own being, awareness and life.

      I have to admit, I've never tried to form dreams from this kind of imagery, neither from HI (flows, colours, light-spots, wavings or swirls...), I simply tend to notice them, and sometimes (as with these 'attenuated, grayish but really' seen imagery) to look closely and investigate a bit. That latter proved to be draining (for me), to say the least. On the other hand, I've found out that entering really vivid coloured and meaningfull scenery that appear later (I do not and will not call these HI, since that is what and how clairvoyant people see) is a good option for my LD or AP (from dild its mainly AP). Now, that's not delta any more, and is a good place to finish my post here.

      Once again, your answer helped a lot with puting some drifting parts in their right place in my head. Thanks Sageous!
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    9. #134
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      I recommend the book: Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, you can download it for free of the web, just google its PDF form.

      The book has pretty much everything you need to know about what Sageous is talking about in this thread, it's what they call sleep yoga. Dream yoga is the lucid dreaming part, sleep yoga (which is far more difficult) is the practice of maintaing your awareness as you drift into the unconscious dream state. The ultimate goal of sleep yoga is to be aware of your own awareness and nothing more. There should be no thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc. you might be aware of it, but you should not be tied to any form. This is also most likely the reason you remember these experiences metaphysically, leaving it almost impossible to explain with thought form.
      Last edited by TheHomeBeef; 12-13-2016 at 10:29 PM.
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      wisdom is knowing I'm nothing
      Love is knowing I'm everything
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      Thank you TheHomeBeef, if nothing else, you have prompted me to continue here with a few words
      after I quote a few paragraphs from the recommended book:

      "In the first moment of any experience, before a reaction occurs, there is only
      pure perception. The prana involved in this pure experiencing is the primordial
      wisdom prana, the energy that underlies experience prior to or free of grasping
      or aversion. This pure experience does not leave a trace and is not the cause of
      any dream. The wisdom prana moves in the central channel and is the energy of
      rigpa. This moment is very brief, a flash of pure experience of which we are
      usually unaware. It is our reaction to this moment, our grasping and aversion,
      that we think of as our experience." (from above mentioned book)

      and this:

      "Clear light is defined in most texts as the unity of emptiness and clarity. It is
      the pure, empty awareness that is the base of the individual. "Clear" refers to
      emptiness, (...), the base, (...). "Light" refers to clarity, (...)
      pure innate awareness. Clear light is direct realization of the unity of (light+clear), of awareness and emptiness.
      Ignorance is compared to a dark room in which you sleep. Awareness is a
      lamp in that room. No matter how long the room has been dark, an hour or a
      million years, the moment the lamp of awareness is lit the entire room becomes
      luminous. (...) You are that
      luminosity. You are the clear light; it is not an object of your experience or a
      mental state. When the luminous awareness in the darkness is blissful, clear,
      unmoving, without reference, without judgment, without center or
      circumference, that is rigpa. It is the nature of mind. (...)" (same)

      +

      "Liberation from ignorance and suffering occurs when we recognize and abide in
      our true nature. That which recognizes is not the conceptual mind; it is the
      fundamental mind, the nature of mind, rigpa. Our necessary task is to
      distinguish, in practice, between the conceptual mind and the pure awareness of
      the nature of mind." (same)


      One main problem I have both with dream and / or sleep yogas is that in my experience, AWAKE yoga is what is and where "the catch 22" lies hidden. I've had both dream and sleep (I believe now that most if not all people do so practicaly every day, even if not aware of it) dynamics during awake. Now, it is my sincere understanding that only in a unity of the three (states: awake, dream and sleep) is what ultimately all seekers look for and endeavor to find. In any case, both dreams and sleep-state "leak" into our everyday awake life, not only the other way around. It is true that one can solve some things in dreams and LD's, some other in sleep and lucid-sleep, but it is what we bring HERE from there is what counts. Subjective mind (double, dream-consciousness or whatever) has intelligence of its own and does it's thing all the time. I see many who try to experience "it" (even I myself was one of those) as if it is a goal and an end in itself, but it is only the beginning. The realization that it is not not only "the end", but a real beginning, was for me completely unexpected and I dare say: shattering.

      Even that thing called "liberation" is not lived during sleep nor dream, but in full everyday awakeness. Yoga does not end with samadhi, it starts with it. After that famous "eighth step" called sama+dhi (translated in english as something like "composure-ness", deep inner sobriety or clearness or clarity of intelligence (intelligence here seems more appropriate then overused "mind"-term), there is the 9th step and even 10th and not only both, but all eight previous steps relate to what is known as Dharma - the right way (of living one's life).

      So, if anyone has delta-lucidity experience, one needs to know that delta can and must become the basis for everyday waking life, if one understands delta-lucidity as (not simply lucid nREM but) that "clear-light" awareness.

      How easy it is to forget that even yoga itself rests on two first steps and those NEVER end. They are the only steps which show of the kind of unity (yoga) it is all about. And toward the end, they point to what samadhi is all about, not being merely "body asleep+mind awake" (which itself need not be delta-lucidity but may be a handfull of different things) state as some would put it a definition of "meditative state". What today goes as "meditation", few hundred years back was in the west called "contemplation". Since that term was linked in the West with some interesting christian practices (as waiting on God, sitting in silence, like in hesuhasm, quietism etc.), it was subsequently changed into its opposite (at that time) and so we today are left with a bit of confusion... Strange how easily words seem to change their meanings...

      For me, that "clear-light" awareness is what delta-lucidity is all about. And same delta-lucidity may be experienced during lucid-sleeping, may be experienced during meditation (I read about the case when swami Rama was connected to EEG during his meditations and it showed some strong delta-waves as in deep healthy sleep), but it also may be experienced during most-lucid-awake. If one knows what to look for. And even than, its only for a moment or few moments, as it makes the link to subjective mind, or better said, subjective mind (clear light) links with objective (usual conceptual mind) here.

      Some interesting things on delta waves can be read / for example / here:

      Understanding The \"Delta\" Brainwave | 4 Mind 4 Life: Mental Health Tips


      I can only hope that this post of mine was not to intense...
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    11. #136
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      It's been a while since I've had anything to share here, but last night I happened to be conscious and lucid through what felt like a decent portion of NREM during my second sleep cycle of the night, some of which may have been delta sleep.

      Initially, the feeling was quieter and “deeper” than the usual near-awakening light NREM I experience. Sensory input was fairly quiet, though there were occasional vibration-like sensations and a feeling of my body's orientation slowly shifting in space. At first, I may have not felt entirely certain I was asleep, or I thought I may have only been hovering on the edge of sleep due to the feeling of the sensations coming and going. In retrospect, it seems more obvious that I probably was definitely well into NREM. In particular, it seemed to last quite a while, and in my experience, very light, non-delta NREM doesn't normally last that long before I either go into REM or wake up (or float through half-awake hypnagogia at the very least, which is totally unlike this).

      Time passed, and I continued to observe myself. At some point, I noticed that the sensations, and especially my thoughts, were very quiet, and I figured this might be a sign of being in delta sleep. At the time, I believed I had a better handle on my perception of time and how much had passed up to this point, whereas in my last experiences of this sleep stage, time seemed to be a very slippery concept. However, looking back, I feel it wasn't actually all that clear how long it had been, still (or at least, it wasn't once it was over and I tried to look back on it). I also observed that, as during my last deep NREM episodes, it was very easy to keep my mind still, unlike when I'm awake where there's always that irresistible urge to think about anything and everything all the time even when I try to meditate on purpose. And again, though it didn't occur to me to check for this at the time, I get the impression that my thoughts during this stage were predominantly nonverbal.

      After a while, I somehow started losing track of waking-life memory and eventually lucidity. I was imagining myself as floating around in some kind of dark underwater setting, perhaps thinking of myself as being a deep sea creature. I may have been thinking of being there with other creatures or “people”. I seemed to start thinking about where my sleeping body was and what physical position it was in, and perhaps imagined casually commenting to one of the other “DCs” about it, but I seemed to start thinking along the lines that this “underwater” setting was my physical sleeping location.

      And from there, though I don't clearly remember the transition, I eventually slid into REM, with the usual vivid dream imagery (up to this point, there had been very little or no imagery at all). By this time, I had lost lucidity. There was a fairly brief NLD about being among a family of sea animals living in what looked like a really big swimming pool and seeking assistance from some land animals for warding off predators and for moving from one “swimming pool” to another nearby one, I think. (This is actually rather unusual content as far as my own dreams go, which makes it rather interesting in itself.) Then I woke up, remembering the NLD somewhat, and the lucid NREM that preceded it more clearly.
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