Which is better for induction - critical-awareness or self-awareness?

[Eamo24]

The reason I ask: If someone was to use critical awareness most of the time (like one of those “all-day” type RC such as gravity, breathing etc.) they would perhaps (which much time and effort) develop an almost second nature ability to decipher between dreams and reality based on these things. Now, This makes sense, and I can see how it would be undoubtedly beneficial to inducing LD’s in the long-term, but I've had many LD's from just “knowing”, which (I presume) were based on daytime mindfulness and self-awareness activities, like just trying not to be on “auto-pilot” during the day. This is fine as well, but I don’t know if this would become easier with time in the same way as the critical awareness and become “second nature” in a way that will help you distinguish dreams and reality (I could be wrong, as I haven’t kept it up for long enough). Both have benefits, but I wonder which is the best route?

[cmind]

WILD

[Eamo24]

Too difficult :/

[cmind]

Or maybe it's the easiest.

[OneUp]

Dude, back at my peak with Self Awareness, after about a month or so(as I've mentioned several times across DV) Self Awareness became completely second nature to me. It just takes some time and eventually its wired into your brain. Since both methods are cultivating awareness, the success rate in my opinion should pretty much be the same. However, one method(self awareness) helps you out with life in all aspects in general(such as it helps you pay attention to whatever you're doing) while the other just focuses on one thing like Hukif's gravity RC and breathing awareness.

[Eamo24]

Dude, back at my peak with Self Awareness, after about a month or so(as I've mentioned several times across DV) Self Awareness became completely second nature to me. It just takes some time and eventually its wired into your brain. Since both methods are cultivating awareness, the success rate in my opinion should pretty much be the same. However, one method(self awareness) helps you out with life in all aspects in general(such as it helps you pay attention to whatever you're doing) while the other just focuses on one thing like Hukif's gravity RC and breathing awareness. Thx, good advice, OneUp. I can see the benefits self-awareness has, I guess the only thing I have difficult with about self-awareness in terms of LD’ing is that I’m not quite sure what to focus on. I know it has a lot to do with not being in ‘zombie mode’ during the day, and knowing when your mind has wandered (similar to mindfulness/meditation), but sometimes during the day I would remind myself…know my mind has wandered for the last 20 minutes or so, and think “what do I do know, what am I supposed to be focusing on?” Also, about it becoming easier with time, I haven’t really had the chance to keep it up (college etc.), but it’s good to know that it does.

[Sageous]

I think critical awareness is a tool for developing self-awareness, so comparison of the two seems very much an apples and oranges situation. Lucidity might be made more accessible using critical awareness techniques, but lucidity cannot exist without self-awareness, since a lucid dream is literally the presence of self-awareness in a dream. The two are complementary, and not in competition. In other words, you must have self-awareness in order to be lucid, and critical awareness techiques can help with that; without self-awareness you can do critical awareness exercises until the cows come home and never become lucid. So: Yes, critical awareness is an excellent tool for achieving lucidity, but you will never be lucid without self-awareness. To me this means that self-awareness trumps critical awareness every time, though critical awareness is a handy addition to your LD'ing practice. I guess this means that for me self-awareness is the "better" thing to work on when seeking lucidity, but critical awareness is a fine tool for helping achieve self-awareness in a dream (aka: lucidty).

[Box77]

without self-awareness you can do critical awareness exercises until the cows come home and never become lucid. I can relate to this

[Eamo24]

I think critical awareness is a tool for developing self-awareness, so comparison of the two seems very much an apples and oranges situation. Lucidity might be made more accessible using critical awareness techniques, but lucidity cannot exist without self-awareness, since a lucid dream is literally the presence of self-awareness in a dream. The two are complementary, and not in competition. In other words, you must have self-awareness in order to be lucid, and critical awareness techiques can help with that; without self-awareness you can do critical awareness exercises until the cows come home and never become lucid. So: Yes, critical awareness is an excellent tool for achieving lucidity, but you will never be lucid without self-awareness. To me this means that self-awareness trumps critical awareness every time, though critical awareness is a handy addition to your LD'ing practice. I guess this means that for me self-awareness is the "better" thing to work on when seeking lucidity, but critical awareness is a fine tool for helping achieve self-awareness in a dream (aka: lucidty). That does make sense, Sageous. I understand that self-awareness and memory are important (and responsible) for enhancing LD experience in general, prolonging etc. but induction itself can be troublesome. So I assumed that a critical approach would be a fine way to incorporate your self-awareness into the dream, if it is difficult to do otherwise (like developing an implicit understanding of gravity or transitions for the sake of example, between dreams and reality). But from this though I also have question (and I think this is one of the concerns I had about critical awareness): You said before that in terms of self-awareness, it’s more about what you do when you get there, rather than how you get there. Does this mean, that if the dreamer was unsure of the dream state and needed to check that it was a dream, that this LD could still have the same potential for high self-awareness as one which is brought about simply from “knowing” due to heightened self-awareness in the first place?

[Sageous]

That does make sense, Sageous. I understand that self-awareness and memory are important (and responsible) for enhancing LD experience in general, prolonging etc. but induction itself can be troublesome. So I assumed that a critical approach would be a fine way to incorporate your self-awareness into the dream, if it is difficult to do otherwise (like developing an implicit understanding of gravity or transitions for the sake of example, between dreams and reality). I think you get this, but just to be clear: Self-awareness is not important for enhancing lucidity, it is lucidity. Also, memory access (a product of self-awareness, BTW) is essential for completing the lucid experience. All these induction techniques, critical awareness or not, are meant to establish self-awareness in a dream. Critical awareness induction techniques (during waking-life and in the dream) are excellent tools to help you become self-aware in a dream (lucid), and they are probably better at producing brief "Ah-Ha!" moments of lucidity than general daytime self-awareness work. So incorporate away; you won't regret it! However, if your self-awareness practice is successful and you are able to maintain self-awareness often and comfortably during the day, you will find that "knowing" you are dreaming will happen much more often, that induction (regardless of technique) will be far less troublesome, and your general lucid experience will pass significantly beyond the "Ah-Ha!" moment. I guess what I'm saying here is this: Sure, critical awareness induction techniques are a great tool for gaining lucidity, but if you choose to adopt them, be careful not to leave your self-awareness practices behind. But from this though I also have question (and I think this is one of the concerns I had about critical awareness): You said before that in terms of self-awareness, it’s more about what you do when you get there, rather than how you get there. Does this mean, that if the dreamer was unsure of the dream state and needed to check that it was a dream, that this LD could still have the same potential for high self-awareness as one which is brought about simply from “knowing” due to heightened self-awareness in the first place? Yes.

[Oktek]

Critical-awareness is better IMO. There are dreams, where you are self-aware and these are sure to be more vivid, memorable etc. but aren't lucid most of the time. You must catch that difference between RL and a dream. I'm slowly advancing with ADA for three days now. I think that full ADA isn't necessary. I'm paying attention mainly to body sensations, as these are different in dreams no matter, how well you know them.

[Eamo24]

Critical-awareness is better IMO. There are dreams, where you are self-aware and these are sure to be more vivid, memorable etc. but aren't lucid most of the time. You must catch that difference between RL and a dream. I'm slowly advancing with ADA for three days now. I think that full ADA isn't necessary. I'm paying attention mainly to body sensations, as these are different in dreams no matter, how well you know them. Yes I've certainly experienced better dream clarity, recall etc. with dreams where I was more self-aware. I'm not such a big fan of ADA (for one, it's probably the most tiresome of techniques! ) but yeah, I wouldn't say it's necessary to keep up full ADA, the critical aspect to awareness is likely to produce better "results" anyway, like focusing on key differences etc. between dreams and reality. The are indeed different and can be a great way to spark lucidity. Good luck with it.

[OneUp]

Critical-awareness is better IMO. There are dreams, where you are self-aware and these are sure to be more vivid, memorable etc. but aren't lucid most of the time. You must catch that difference between RL and a dream. I'm slowly advancing with ADA for three days now. I think that full ADA isn't necessary. I'm paying attention mainly to body sensations, as these are different in dreams no matter, how well you know them. What? No, that's not how it works man. As Sageous said, Self Awareness is lucidity. If you are self aware in a dream, you are lucid. Otherwise it'd be completely pointless to be practicing a lucid mindset in the first place. If you are self aware in a dream, you will always be lucid. As for ADA, it is truly exhausting, but anything that requires you to pay attention non-stop to your own surroundings tends to be that way. All these induction techniques, critical awareness or not, are meant to establish self-awareness in a dream. ~Sageous. And Eamo24, if you do decide to push through and keep practicing self awareness despite the stress of college, I promise you you will not regret it. Not only that, but you will have developed an aspect of mental toughness where, despite the challenges you face in daily life, you chose to not let those challenges hinder you from achieving your dream and goals.

[Eamo24]

I think you get this, but just to be clear: Self-awareness is not important for enhancing lucidity, it is lucidity. Also, memory access (a product of self-awareness, BTW) is essential for completing the lucid experience. All these induction techniques, critical awareness or not, are meant to establish self-awareness in a dream. Critical awareness induction techniques (during waking-life and in the dream) are excellent tools to help you become self-aware in a dream (lucid), and they are probably better at producing brief "Ah-Ha!" moments of lucidity than general daytime self-awareness work. So incorporate away; you won't regret it! However, if your self-awareness practice is successful and you are able to maintain self-awareness often and comfortably during the day, you will find that "knowing" you are dreaming will happen much more often, that induction (regardless of technique) will be far less troublesome, and your general lucid experience will pass significantly beyond the "Ah-Ha!" moment. I guess what I'm saying here is this: Sure, critical awareness induction techniques are a great tool for gaining lucidity, but if you choose to adopt them, be careful not to leave your self-awareness practices behind. Ah I see, thanks for explaining, Sageous. About self-awareness literally translating to lucidity, yes I did know that, I guess I just meant that by having a good sense of yourself in the dream, you could have a better LD experience because of this and better appreciation of the dream etc. Originally the concern I had about using critical awareness was that it might not match up to general self-awareness in terms of getting it directly into the dream state (probably a nonsensical idea). But I now see that it’s one thing to build self-awareness and its another to actually get your self-awareness into a LD. Some people use MILD, others WILD and many may RC to specific dream signs as a reliable way to spark lucidity. But your self awareness still exists and is there to be tapped. Good to know! Thanks for explaining.

[FryingMan]

To me they feel like two sides of the same coin. Maybe because I do both of them. I think one segues nicely into the other. If you're exercising your critical faculty, just who or what is being critical? *You*. You are there, in this location, in this time, taking note of something -- not necessarily external things, but also your own thoughts, emotions, do they make sense? That brings self-awareness into the picture nicely. And self-awareness to me includes noticing my state of mind, my location, asserting that *I* am *here*, *now*. But where is here? Is it a waking scenario? Which segues into critical evaluation moment.

[Sageous]

^^ Though that definition for self-awareness seems a bit lacking, it still works with what I was saying. What also works, especially in the context of LD'ing, is the definition I've been using here for a while: "Self-awareness is nothing more -- or less -- than being aware that you are here, that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you." I believe that self-awareness is far more than "Knowing, who you are, being able to recognize yourself in a mirror etc.," especially in the context of lucid dreaming. And yes, if you are self-aware you definitely know where you are. Indeed, if you were self-aware in a dream (aka, lucid) you would immediately know you were dreaming without having to spot anything odd. Sure, critical awareness can help establish stronger lucidity after you know you're dreaming by confirming your state, but you really must have an inkling of self-awareness in place before the critical awareness can be applied: You can have all the critical awareness in the world, Oktek, but if you are not self-aware in the dream you will merely be examining the details of your surroundings and "understanding" that they are all quite real. In other words, without self-awareness, you will be unable to see that something is wrong in a dream. Worse, without self-awareness (but with lots of expectation) you might just dream that you are seeing something wrong in your surroundings, and then dream that your logical thinking* has been triggered, and proceed to dream you are lucid without a hint of lucidity (I think this a fairly common event, though saying so rarely goes over well at DV). Finally, since lucid dreaming is literally the presence of waking-life self-awareness in a dream, you might consider raising its profile a bit in your mind. Even if critical awareness is a great tool for inducing/reinforcing lucidity, it still must be a tool for gaining self-awareness in a dream -- or else you will not be lucid. I would even argue that critical awareness cannot work without the presence of self-awareness, but that might not matter here. Attaining waking-life self-awareness in the dream is the goal for every LD'er; dismissing it as just another induction technique will likely have a negative effect on your LD'ing success rate. *Logical thinking works just fine when not lucid, BTW; it is memory that is flawed. Your logical thinking only seems impaired (upon waking) because it lacks memory input to confirm or question what it is you are seeing: In a dream your entire reality was created just a moment earlier, and all the reference material you can use for your logical thinking is based only on that brief segment of reality. In other words, your logical engine is running just fine, but the information fueling it is extremely limited, though it seems complete during the dream. For instance, if during a NLD you are playing tennis with a giraffe on the moon you will be able to logically accept this because you do not remember that it is absurd. This also would make critical awareness a bit of a problem when not yet lucid, I think...

[DreamBrandt]

If I had to choose I would say critical awareness, although, in my experience, instead of going through the day practicing being aware of the possibility that you are dreaming, it is more effective to go through the day practicing being aware that you ARE in a dream. Emulate the reality you intend to create.

[Sageous]

^^ Except that self-awareness has little to nothing to do with "going through the day practicing being aware of the possibility that you are dreaming." Self-awareness practice focuses on remembering that you exist, that you have an active presence in reality, what you do or say has an effect on your local reality, and your local reality has an effect on you. There is no need to be aware of either the possibility that you are dreaming or that you are dreaming to develop your self-awareness.

[DreamBrandt]

^^ Except that self-awareness has little to nothing to do with "going through the day practicing being aware of the possibility that you are dreaming." Self-awareness practice focuses on remembering that you exist, that you have an active presence in reality, what you do or say has an effect on your local reality, and your local reality has an effect on you. There is no need to be aware of either the possibility that you are dreaming or that you are dreaming to develop your self-awareness. I was simply speaking on the topic of awareness. When one practices awareness for the purpose of lucid dreaming. Developing self awareness may be a seperate effort but in this context it is ment as a means to become aware that one is dreaming. (Not the other way around.) To restate what I said before, a little differently: Instead of practicing self awareness, I believe it to be more effective and direct to practice the awareness that one is dreaming. I have many times been aware of myself in my dreams, but that has made little to no contribution to me becoming lucid.

[Sageous]

^^ We apparently have differing views of self-awareness, DreamBrand. That's fine, but: Though I do agree that "regular" awareness is very different from self-awareness, I do not agree that self-awareness is not necessary for lucidity, since lucidity is literally having waking-life self-awareness in a dream. I'm not sure how you managed to be self-aware in a dream without realizing it was a dream, either, but that could just be me, because I feel that simply being aware of yourself, or the presence of your dream body, and even identifying it as yourself, is not equal to self-awareness. And, yes, as I said earlier, you can use plenty of other techniques or daytime practices to become self-aware (aka, lucid) in a dream, to know you are dreaming, but you still must be self-aware in order to be lucid.

[DreamBrandt]

^^ We apparently have differing views of self-awareness, DreamBrand. That's fine, but: Though I do agree that "regular" awareness is very different from self-awareness, I do not agree that self-awareness is not necessary for lucidity, since lucidity is literally having waking-life self-awareness in a dream. I'm not sure how you managed to be self-aware in a dream without realizing it was a dream, either, but that could just be me, because I feel that simply being aware of yourself, or the presence of your dream body, and even identifying it as yourself, is not equal to self-awareness. And, yes, as I said earlier, you can use plenty of other techniques or daytime practices to become self-aware (aka, lucid) in a dream, to know you are dreaming, but you still must be self-aware in order to be lucid. Care to explain self awareness a little more? As far as I know, self awareness is becoming aware of the self, but you seem to think otherwise.

[Sageous]

^^ You might check out post #17 on this thread, where I say a couple of things about self-awareness within the context of the OP, but I also listed my favorite short definition of it: "Self-awareness is nothing more -- or less -- than being aware that you are here, that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you." There isn't much more to it than that, that self-awareness is a recognition of both your presence in and your constant transaction with your local reality. It is the essence of sentience, of course, and with memory it is the essence of our identity. I guess it is more about knowing that "I am," "I am here, was somewhere before, and will be somewhere later" and understanding what that means (or at least it means something). Also: Sure, self-awareness is becoming aware of the self, but isn't that a little circular, since it then begs the question, "Then what is the self?" So I probably don't think otherwise, just that there is more. Finally, and again in the context of this thread, self-awareness is a state of mind or condition of consciousness, and is by no means a technique for inducing lucidity (or anything else). I hope that made sense; I was in a bit of rush. I do talk a bit more about it in my Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals thread, if you're interested, but honestly I think that ultimately, after that first quoted definition up there the rest is redundant ...oh, and welcome to DV, BTW!

[DreamBrandt]

Hah, well I wouldn't call it redundant, i'd call it self explanatory. "Self-awareness is nothing more -- or less -- than being aware that you are here, that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you." I think that's more in the realm of dream control than anything else. You can meet that condition, but without knowing the rules and circumstances it means almost nothing. Sure I may be aware that I am here, that I have an effect of everything ect ect, but am I aware of the rules? The rules being I can do almost anything I want, including things that defy logic. The circumstances being that I am asleep, currently dreaming. Knowledge of the rules and circumstances are what make lucid dreaming lucid dreaming. Dumbed down, this translates to: Being aware that you are in a dream is what makes you lucid dream. It may seem redundant, but then again, just like "self-awareness", "lucid dreaming" is self explanatory. While I am in a dream, lucid or not, I am usually aware of the fact that I exist and I can control myself. Because of this, practicing self awareness seems pointless. It's like saying that before I can learn to ride a bike I should practice breathing first. Oh and thanks, it's good to be here.

[Sageous]

"Self-awareness is nothing more -- or less -- than being aware that you are here, that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you." I think that's more in the realm of dream control than anything else. You can meet that condition, but without knowing the rules and circumstances it means almost nothing. Well, no, not exactly. Self-awareness is certainly important for dream control, but that definition really has nothing to do with self-awareness as a technique for dream control (Once more, self-awareness is not a technique). When you are self-aware in a dream there is no need to know the rules or circumstances because you know that the entire dream is You, and (as you mention below) there are no rules and the circumstances are understood as given without a thought. Sure I may be aware that I am here, that I have an effect of everything ect ect, but am I aware of the rules? The rules being I can do almost anything I want, including things that defy logic. The circumstances being that I am asleep, currently dreaming. Again, to say that the rules are that there are no rules doesn't really make sense; perhaps to say that you understand that all the rules are a product of your own mind and thus limited only by your imagination might make more sense. And yes, a major part of self-awareness is that it gives you the capacity to know, without thinking about it, that you are currently dreaming and that your sleeping body is somewhere else. I'm not sure you can do this without being self-aware. Knowledge of the rules and circumstances are what make lucid dreaming lucid dreaming. Dumbed down, this translates to: Being aware that you are in a dream is what makes you lucid dream. Yes, being aware that you are in a dream is indeed what makes you lucid dream, and that awareness is generated by the presence of your waking-life self-awareness. That said, I think -- and have seen -- that it is very easy to have a non-lucid dream where you are dreaming about being aware that you are in a lucid dream, and doing lots of lucid things, all without ever being lucid. I think this is a fairly common occurrence, where people think about being lucid all day, so their dreaming mind obliges by giving them a "lucid" dream, all without the dreamer ever actually knowing they are dreaming. [I address this bit much more clearly (or at least in a more lengthy manner) in an old thread called A Treatise on Proof, if you're interested. You might enjoy it!] Truly "knowing" that you are dreaming -- and sustaining that knowledge -- comes by bringing your waking-life self-awareness into a dream. In other words, you cannot truly know that you are dreaming unless your waking-life self (rather than your dream character "you") is able to do the knowing, and that takes self-awareness. It may seem redundant, but then again, just like "self-awareness", "lucid dreaming" is self explanatory. Actually it's not. If the term "lucid dreaming" were self-explanatory, then lucidity would involve or require lots of brightness or light, and it doesn't... funny thing is, many people do believe that a lucid dream must be a vivid one as well, mostly because of the fact that the term "lucid dreaming" is not self-explanatory. Also, I'm not sure I remember this correctly, but the term "lucidity" relates in this context to enlightenment, which -- wait for it -- is essentially being self-aware. While I am in a dream, lucid or not, I am usually aware of the fact that I exist and I can control myself. Because of this, practicing self awareness seems pointless. If you are not lucid then, by definition, the only existence you are aware of is your dream body's existence, and you accept your existence in your dreamworld as real. If you are aware of your true, waking-life existence, which includes remembering where your sleeping body is and you can access memories not included in the dream schema, then you are lucid... so if that's the case, then you are lucid in every dream. If you just mean that you can move about and that you are conscious in a NLD, then that is true for all of us. It's like saying that before I can learn to ride a bike I should practice breathing first. No, it is not. And for what it's worth you certainly cannot learn to ride a bike if you are not breathing. You know what? Given the number of LD's you list in your profile, I think I'll just assume that we are both talking about generally the same thing but are using different terms or concepts with which both of us are unwilling to part, so it might be best if we stop here. Besides, I think we've sort of left the topic.

[FryingMan]

You know what? Given the number of LD's you list in your profile, I think I'll just assume that we are both talking about generally the same thing but are using different terms or concepts with which both of us are unwilling to part, so it might be best if we stop here. Besides, I think we've sort of left the topic. I think this is the difficulty in dreaming discussions (and indeed any philosophical, literary, or scientific discussion). A second difficulty is that people frame these elusive concepts differently, even using the same terms. Just look at the threads where two sides vociferously argue that WRT dream control, "expectation is everything" vs. "expectation is nothing, it's all about archetypes/schemas" I think that's a great example of the same thing. And indeed I may enter the same traps, but I'll try to make some points. The more I think about the statement that self-awareness means "(1)being aware that you are here, (2) that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you" combined with "self-awareness *is* lucidity" and with my experience so far with lucid dreaming, the less I'm inclined to agree with them as-is. The problem is that to me, in my experience, and in what these terms mean to me, conditions (1) and (2) can be satisfied in either the dream or the waking state, without the notion of the dreaming/waking state coming up at all in my mind. In my dreams, I have very clearly had numerous examples of (1): a completely compelling feeling of presence and "being here" indistinguishable from the same experience in the waking state. In dreams, there is the experience of cause and effect, of action and reaction, all the time. I fail to see how this is any different from condition (2). I suppose it comes down to a much deeper discussion of what "effect" is, but to me: if I "feel" it, it is "effecting" me, and if I observe my actions "changing" the environment, I am "effecting" things around me. In my framing of lucidity, I think the fundamental building blocks are (note that these apply equally well to waking state lucidity or dream state lucidity). (1) *I* am *here*, *now* (2) I know/*remember* that consciousness exists in either the waking or the dream state, and that conscious experience in these states is characterized by various phenomena behaving differently (3) I *intend*/*remember* to *recognize* my state (intent, memory) It is entirely possible that my #2-3 and Sageous's #2 are entirely equivalent, yet using different words to express the "gut feeling" of the same thing. Sageous's #2 wording just doesn't really resonate with me I've found. Note that all of my 1-3 can also be "felt" in an instant flash, they do not necessarily require seconds of thinking to evaluate.