Help with mindfullness

[DreamSwimmer]

This is so frackin hard!! I'm trying to maintain breath awareness and awareness of thoughts during the day (as it helps with WILD) but its almost impossible. I can maintain it for maybe 30 seconds and then I forget. I'll remember around 10-15 minutes later and the process will start again! I'm really motivated to do this, and determined not to give up. Will it get any easier over time?

[Cobalt Storm]

I've always found it easier to be aware my physical surroundings rather than my thoughts.

[Goldenspark]

You can't possibly mintain 100% awareness all of the ime, at least not in the modern world, unless you become a monk The whole point is that in order to function, a lot of what we do has to use automatic responses (e.g. driving on autopilot). If we were always totally aware, a lot of the motor function that allows us to respond quickly would be far too slow. The trick is to train yourself to keep thinking about awareness often enough that you do it in your dreams, and that will spark lucidity. Even that is really hard. In other words you need to somehow remember about every five minutes or so to stop and be aware of the moment, and consider "am I dreaming?". If you only ever do that once or twice a day, in your dreams it is likely that you will never do it. That's why they reckon to do a good RC at least 10 times a day.

[DreamSwimmer]

You can't possibly mintain 100% awareness all of the ime, at least not in the modern world, unless you become a monk The whole point is that in order to function, a lot of what we do has to use automatic responses (e.g. driving on autopilot). If we were always totally aware, a lot of the motor function that allows us to respond quickly would be far too slow. The trick is to train yourself to keep thinking about awareness often enough that you do it in your dreams, and that will spark lucidity. Even that is really hard. In other words you need to somehow remember about every five minutes or so to stop and be aware of the moment, and consider "am I dreaming?". If you only ever do that once or twice a day, in your dreams it is likely that you will never do it. That's why they reckon to do a good RC at least 10 times a day. Thanks for the help! I'm using the awareness to help me with WILD, as I don't much like DILD. When I go to sleep every night, I try and keep a small portion of awareness active so I can just enter the dream. It's this awareness that I am trying to strengthen with my mindfulness. I'm getting better at it, but slowly. It's tough going, but I think it's worth it in the end

[OneUp]

A short answer: Yes it does get easier over time. Like Goldenspark said, mindfulness requires constant training. For me, it took about 2 months to form a really good habit of maintaining a state of constant awareness. Science says that it takes around 20 something days to form a habit I believe, so the time to get it down may vary from person to person. My point is, after that amount of time has passed, the state of mindfulness will become second nature and basically effortless. What helped me alot was keeping my goal in mind while practicing. Know your desired end result and it'll make things easier. All it really is, is a change in mindset that your brain, when trained, will pick up over time with the constant practice. When one first starts off, they are in the same boat as you DreamSwimmer, and I was no different. The only thing I disagree with about Goldenspark is when he said that you can't be 100% aware all of the time. I'd say otherwise, and considering I spent over 2 months perfecting my awareness/mindfulness, I know that it is possible. Being 100% aware all of the time isn't necessary, but it will land you multiple LDs every night(personal experience). That being said, even being aware for only 75% of a day will still land you a more than one lucid dream a night. Imo, aim for the highest so that if you have a tough day, you can still go to bed at night knowing you'll lucid dream regardless haha. By the way, always remember why you started; and that can go for anything in life.

[Valis1]

I think that it would be extremely unlikely for a person to achieve a noticeable intensification of consciousness, both in terms of mindfulness and concentration, outside of a formal methodology. These methods have been developed over a long period of time to create ideal patterning influences which over time lead to long term structural renovation of those neural systems responsible for upholding awareness. Each layer of these methodologies: the postures, hand gestures, points of focus, and insistence of mental ease (I am being general, each method is unique) were all designed to create the best conditions for mental and neurological evolution, taken all together they achieve results which are very difficult without them. To answer your question: it will get easier, but the speed at which it will do so will be dictated by the amount of energy you put into it and the efficiency of the practice your using. I would suggest working on mindfulness first through a daily meditation exercise and then over a period of time extended it out side of formal practice, but this takes considerable and sustained effort. Ken Wilber discuses his growth and achievement of near constant 'witnessing' through the waking, dreaming, and deep sleep state in his work 'One Taste', which I feel is a good introduction of his work as well.

[Goldenspark]

Hey OneUp, I'm intrigued that you claim 100% mindfulness. I suppose it depends what you mean? I can't see how anyone can be 100% mindful and also function "normally", but then I am defining 100% mindful as never, ever, acting on autopilot. You could almost say that basic motor functions must be controlled directly to be mindful. You must take each breath deliberately and not automatically. You must never do one thing while your mind is wandering off on something else. To achieve that I think you must be in a meditative state, and not really functioning in the real world (hence a monk). I can appreciate some lower fraction, ie being 50% mindful, so that you are mostly mindful but allow some automation. What's your definition of 100% mindful?

[OneUp]

Hey OneUp, I'm intrigued that you claim 100% mindfulness. I suppose it depends what you mean? I can't see how anyone can be 100% mindful and also function "normally", but then I am defining 100% mindful as never, ever, acting on autopilot. You could almost say that basic motor functions must be controlled directly to be mindful. You must take each breath deliberately and not automatically. You must never do one thing while your mind is wandering off on something else. To achieve that I think you must be in a meditative state, and not really functioning in the real world (hence a monk). I can appreciate some lower fraction, ie being 50% mindful, so that you are mostly mindful but allow some automation. What's your definition of 100% mindful? No I think you're overthinking it. When I say 100% mindfulness, in my terms, it is constantly being here in the present moment and being aware of what is going on, where I am at, what am I doing, and everything else along those lines. It all depends on how you approach mindfulness as there are many ways to do it. Even acting on autopilot doesn't matter sometimes because you can be mindful and presently aware in the background if that makes sense. The degree of mindfulness is not dependent on set factors like taking each breath deliberately and things like that. This would take a long time to explain, so I'm just going to bring it all down to this: Everyone's approach to mindfulness is slightly different, and there are many ways to succeed with it. Your job is to find what works for you to the point where, at first, you are working hard to achieve your desired results, but not driving yourself insane. It's more like you're finding the right "mold" of awareness that fits your mind. The percent to which you are mindful is rather subjective as, once more, it can mean something slightly different to everyone in the ways of how they approach it and things like that. Also, there really isn't a definite set to what 100% mindfulness is for everyone; it's something you kind of learn once you get far enough into your practice. This whole response sounded a little unclear to me, so let me know if you want to me clarify on anything lol. OneUp

[Goldenspark]

OK OneUp, fair enough that you define it your way. My point was that mindfulness implies being aware of the moment, and 100% mindfulness means being aware of the moment all the time. For me, it is the not living in the moment, and running on autopilot that defines the opposite of mindfulness. Learning to be much more mindful is seen as a route to becoming aware in your dreams, but how much do you need to be mindful during the day to achieve that? I suspect that it is not 100%, but that a good portion of the time must be taken to dragging yourself back from autopilot to mindfulness in order for that habit to bleed over into dreams. If you make a statement that you are successful with mindfulness practice but that you are 100% mindful, it suggests that you must really be 100% to achieve what's required, which is a potentially negative schema to many people who try it and realise that they are actually unable to achieve 100%. I don't think I'm overthinking it, just trying to establish how mindful is really necessary, and what that actually means. Sorry, I didn't mean this to sound confrontational But seriously, if you could analyse in detail what your mindfulness practice meant, second by second, how much time would you say was truly 100% mindful, meaning "in the moment", and what fraction do you allow to drift away from that (daydream, think of the future or past, get engrossed in a film etc.); all the things that we should really think of "not mindful"? (Sorry to grab your thread DreamSwimmer, but I think it's an important distinction to get clear).

[OneUp]

I suspect that it is not 100%, but that a good portion of the time must be taken to dragging yourself back from autopilot to mindfulness in order for that habit to bleed over into dreams. If you make a statement that you are successful with mindfulness practice but that you are 100% mindful, it suggests that you must really be 100% to achieve what's required, which is a potentially negative schema to many people who try it and realise that they are actually unable to achieve 100%. I don't think I'm overthinking it, just trying to establish how mindful is really necessary, and what that actually means. Sorry, I didn't mean this to sound confrontational But seriously, if you could analyse in detail what your mindfulness practice meant, second by second, how much time would you say was truly 100% mindful, meaning "in the moment", and what fraction do you allow to drift away from that (daydream, think of the future or past, get engrossed in a film etc.); all the things that we should really think of "not mindful"? As I stated in one of my earlier posts, one can be 75% mindful/self aware during the day and still get lucid every night easily, so no there is no negative schema attached the way I see it. Even if a person is 50% self aware/mindful throughout the day, that habit will easily bleed into that persons dreams over time and they too will experience frequent lucid dreams. The thing that I feel matters most, is that you are truly striving to live lucidly. With the mindset of constantly striving to live lucid as often as possible, your subconscious seems to notice this and it makes LDs come in alot more frequent whereas opposed to someone who is merely practicing mindfulness/self awareness during the day but has no intention of staying aware during the night or in the dreams will have a harder time getting the habit to bleed over into their dreams. And understood, you don't seem confrontational at all, this is all about understanding mindfulness so your approach is right towards the subject. For me, self awareness/mindfulness is about being in the moment and aware of whats going on constantly. This is possible with extensive practice, but obviously it doesn't guarantee 100% perfection as nothing is really perfect. But my point is that with the time I put into my practice, I got pretty damn close haha. Honestly though, I wouldn't say I drift off at all, and if I do it is very rarely. One can still teach themselves to be mindful while daydreaming, thinking of the future or past, or enjoying a film. Picture it like this: you can either be highly aware during those activities, or you can be aware with the thought that "I could be dreaming right now" at any moment in the back of your head while you consciously wait for a dream sign or something else to appear. For me, I sometimes "turn down" my awareness, but I'm never really not aware. Some part of my mind is always thinking "this could be a dream" and I'm always on the lookout for unusual things or events since those occur so often in dreams. Hope that made sense, OneUp

[DreamSwimmer]

As I stated in one of my earlier posts, one can be 75% mindful/self aware during the day and still get lucid every night easily, so no there is no negative schema attached the way I see it. Even if a person is 50% self aware/mindful throughout the day, that habit will easily bleed into that persons dreams over time and they too will experience frequent lucid dreams. The thing that I feel matters most, is that you are truly striving to live lucidly. With the mindset of constantly striving to live lucid as often as possible, your subconscious seems to notice this and it makes LDs come in alot more frequent whereas opposed to someone who is merely practicing mindfulness/self awareness during the day but has no intention of staying aware during the night or in the dreams will have a harder time getting the habit to bleed over into their dreams. OneUp I'm currently aware maybe 5% of the day! And that seems really hard. But I'm constantly practicing and trying to get better. Even if it only increases by 1% a week, I'll get there eventually. I'm using awareness of breath to ground myself. I also practice awareness at night before I fall asleep, in order to practice WILD, and it's slowly getting easier. I have about 5 dreams a night (with mini awakenings) and I practice maintaining awareness each time. Currently I have a lucid dream once every 2 days (1 in 10 attempts), but I hope to increase that over time. I think your advice is brilliant and really helpful.

[Sageous]

No I think you're overthinking it. When I say 100% mindfulness, in my terms, it is constantly being here in the present moment and being aware of what is going on, where I am at, what am I doing, and everything else along those lines. It all depends on how you approach mindfulness as there are many ways to do it. Even acting on autopilot doesn't matter sometimes because you can be mindful and presently aware in the background if that makes sense. The degree of mindfulness is not dependent on set factors like taking each breath deliberately and things like that. Wow, OneUp, color me impressed! You seem to have done in a couple of months what many, including Tibetan Lamas and Sleep Yogis, spend their lifetimes trying to achieve. I've been practicing self-awareness/mindfulness for decades and haven't approached anything like 100% self-awareness. To be aware of your presence in the moment, every moment, every day, is truly amazing and by most measures pretty much impossible after just a couple of months' practice; well done! That said: As I stated in one of my earlier posts, one can be 75% mindful/self aware during the day and still get lucid every night easily, so no there is no negative schema attached the way I see it. Even if a person is 50% self aware/mindful throughout the day, that habit will easily bleed into that persons dreams over time and they too will experience frequent lucid dreams. The thing that I feel matters most, is that you are truly striving to live lucidly. With the mindset of constantly striving to live lucid as often as possible, your subconscious seems to notice this and it makes LDs come in alot more frequent whereas opposed to someone who is merely practicing mindfulness/self-awareness during the day but has no intention of staying aware during the night or in the dreams will have a harder time getting the habit to bleed over into their dreams. You might be careful handing out this sort of info, because, as Dreamswimmer noted, full-time mindfulness does not come to, well, pretty much any of us as easily as it did to you. Yes, I agree that someone who is "only" self-aware 50% of the time will have minimal trouble becoming lucid, but that same someone would likely find it very difficult, if not miraculous, to gain that 50% level ever, much less with just a couple months' practice. Mindfulness is an important practice, and learning to summon self-awareness when needed (like, during a dream) is a powerful and, with time and practice, achievable skill, but becoming self-aware 100% of the time (or even 50%) is extremely difficult and is not necessary for successful LD'ing. I hope you might consider your skill unique, as you should, and temper your advice for us less mindful folks who have little chance of achieving 24/7 self-awareness so quickly, if at all.

[Raziiel]

Hi everyone, as DreamSwimmer I'm very interested in mindfulness, I've started meditation consistently about 10 days ago and I'm trying to be as mindful as possible but it is very hard for me ! I got my first LD last week and I think mindfulness is the best way to get a lot more OneUp or Sageous, I would be very happy if you could give us some advice to stay mindful consistently because you guys seems to have a lot of experience

[Goldenspark]

Hey Sageous, I'm glad you chimed in there, because I'm starting to question how much mindfulness I actually manage to achieve when I'm actually trying! I know for sure when I'm not mindful, because I can suddenly remember to question if I'm dreaming and then focus on the moment, so I remember that I was either on autopilot or thinking elsewhere, but then when I try to experience the moment, I'm not sure that it's "enough". In other words, maybe I'm going through the motions but it's not really true mindfulness. That's why I was trying to understand OneUp's definition of 100%. Your confirmation that ordinary people might only expect to get low levels of mindfulness, especially at the start, helps to frame my limited achievements.

[OneUp]

Wow, OneUp, color me impressed! You seem to have done in a couple of months what many, including Tibetan Lamas and Sleep Yogis, spend their lifetimes trying to achieve. I've been practicing self-awareness/mindfulness for decades and haven't approached anything like 100% self-awareness. To be aware of your presence in the moment, every moment, every day, is truly amazing and by most measures pretty much impossible after just a couple of months' practice; well done! That said: You might be careful handing out this sort of info, because, as Dreamswimmer noted, full-time mindfulness does not come to, well, pretty much any of us as easily as it did to you. Yes, I agree that someone who is "only" self-aware 50% of the time will have minimal trouble becoming lucid, but that same someone would likely find it very difficult, if not miraculous, to gain that 50% level ever, much less with just a couple months' practice. Mindfulness is an important practice, and learning to summon self-awareness when needed (like, during a dream) is a powerful and, with time and practice, achievable skill, but becoming self-aware 100% of the time (or even 50%) is extremely difficult and is not necessary for successful LD'ing. I hope you might consider your skill unique, as you should, and temper your advice for us less mindful folks who have little chance of achieving 24/7 self-awareness so quickly, if at all. I appreciate the feedback Sageous! Now that I look at it, I do agree with you on the fact that 24/7 self awareness is hard. The way I really reached the point I am at now is by taking on a completely different mindset. I told myself that I'd be living lucidly for the rest of my life and that I would never stop. When I started this journey, it was hard, no doubt about that. But like I said it became easier over time, and I kept on going because I knew my end result and I also looked a bit into habit-forming and neuroplasticity and how, with repeated practice, we can completely change the way we think. Don't get me wrong though, I faced periods of downtime with my mindfulness practice, and sometimes I still do; I'm no where near perfection as much as I'd like to say so. That being said, in the long periods where I do put in constant work, I'd say I have the mindset of lucid living and self awareness down. The amount of work I had to put in to get to that point was, well, a lot to say the least. To touch upon the last part of your reply, I guess you are right that my skill is unique, but I do believe that everyone can achieve the same results as well if the work is put in for it. The way I see it, a lot of it boils down to how much willpower one has, and how badly one wants to succeed. In the end, I still believe that anyone definitely has the potential to do what I have done as I am no one special. I also agree with you on the fact that 100% mindfulness every day is not necessary for lucid dreaming, but I guess the main reason I decided to go that far is because, to me(just my opinion), life seems more alive when I'm that aware. It also helps me to pay attention(what a surprise haha) to everything and really keeps me focused on whatever I am doing. So really, the goal with mindfulness for me goes beyond lucid dreaming; it goes into this waking life as well if that makes sense. tl;dr I agree that 100% mindfulness everyday is not necessary for lucid dreaming, and while getting to such a high degree of this practice can be hard, I believe that any one can do it if they put in the work.

[DreamSwimmer]

Wow, OneUp, color me impressed! You seem to have done in a couple of months what many, including Tibetan Lamas and Sleep Yogis, spend their lifetimes trying to achieve. I've been practicing self-awareness/mindfulness for decades and haven't approached anything like 100% self-awareness. To be aware of your presence in the moment, every moment, every day, is truly amazing and by most measures pretty much impossible after just a couple of months' practice; well done! That said: You might be careful handing out this sort of info, because, as Dreamswimmer noted, full-time mindfulness does not come to, well, pretty much any of us as easily as it did to you. Yes, I agree that someone who is "only" self-aware 50% of the time will have minimal trouble becoming lucid, but that same someone would likely find it very difficult, if not miraculous, to gain that 50% level ever, much less with just a couple months' practice. Mindfulness is an important practice, and learning to summon self-awareness when needed (like, during a dream) is a powerful and, with time and practice, achievable skill, but becoming self-aware 100% of the time (or even 50%) is extremely difficult and is not necessary for successful LD'ing. I hope you might consider your skill unique, as you should, and temper your advice for us less mindful folks who have little chance of achieving 24/7 self-awareness so quickly, if at all. Do you think that meditating once a day in the evening is enough Sageous? That's what I am doing right now. In the morning I'm too tired, but after getting home from work I try and fit around 20 minutes a day. I aim to eventually get it to around an hour but 20 min is about all I can do atm

[Sageous]

Do you think that meditating once a day in the evening is enough Sageous? You're probably asking that question to the wrong person, Dreamswimmer, because I don't believe any meditation is necessary for developing mindfulness. Well, that's not entirely true, since mindfulness is in itself sort of a meditation. But there is no need to set down for a given time each day doing a specific mental exercise. Instead, I think that your self-awareness/mindfulness practice should be something you do -- perhaps for just a few seconds -- throughout the day, whenever you remember to do so. It is much better to find yourself in a random moment, or perhaps recognize your presence during an important moment (like, say, an argument with a friend), than it is to do a prearranged mental exercise... and it is better still to find yourself in those moments many times a day. Meditation is certainly a valuable tool for its own reasons (i.e., calming your mind, or centering your focus), but I think that actively developing your mindfulness involves incorporating it directly into your daily life. Like I said; wrong person to ask! In case you're interested, here is a little exercise I offered in my DVA WILD class, called an RRC, that might help you during those pauses you ought to be doing throughout your day: How do you develop self-awareness? There are many ways... but the exercise I’ll offer today is simple introduction to the practice, sort of a Reverse Reality Check (RRC): Here’s what to do: At random intervals during the day – at least once an hour but no more than three times in that hour – stop what you’re doing and wonder. Just hold still for a second and remember where you were a few minutes ago, imagine where you’ll be in a few minutes, and know that everything you’re doing right now has an effect on everything and everyone around you, and everything and everyone around you has an effect on you – even if you don’t realize it. The important part here is to think deeply about your place in all the stuff that’s whirling around you at any given time, and to really think about what all that whirling is doing to you, and what you might be doing to the whirling. During waking life, you might find yourself very often assuming that there’s not much whirling about at all or that there’s not much of an exchange of effect going on. There always is, whether you can feel it or not. Think about the fact that there is an exchange of atoms between your feet and the floor you’re treading: in a sense you’re changing reality itself, if ever so slightly, just by standing there! It is therefore extremely important to take a moment and remember that you exist, and your existence matters – even if you don’t think it does. [Edit: Your focus during this questioning period should be on your interaction with your local reality -- things/people your presence has influenced, are influencing, and will influence, or things/people that have/will do the same to you. You should avoid getting too metaphysical or galactic, as that atoms example above might imply. For example, perhaps you were just sitting on the couch in your living room 5 minutes ago, doing nothing... sounds like nothing to wonder about, unless you think about the dent you left in the couch, how it will still be warm for the next person in the room, how your comfortable situation on the couch caused you to ignore an important phone call from your boyfriend; the list can go on and on, if you look).] You don’t have to recite all those questions every time; that would be annoying, and the process of reciting all that might diminish the effect. Basically you should put it all into a single quick thought that means something to you, and allows wonder to linger after you’ve resumed moving through your waking day. It will be difficult at first, but with practice you won’t be using words at all when you pause, as the questions will have become second nature. Be very careful that the questions never lose their wonder, though. If they become rote -- just a bunch of words you say whenever your iPhone app goes off -- then you will have lost the point of doing the exercise because you will not be acknowledging your self.

[Patience108]

...since mindfulness is in itself meditation. But there is no need to set down for a given time each day doing a specific mental exercise...self-awareness/mindfulness practice should be something you do -- perhaps for just a few seconds -- throughout the day, whenever you remember to do so. It is much better to find yourself in a random moment, or perhaps recognize your presence during an important moment... and it is better still to find yourself in those moments many times a day. Meditation is certainly a valuable tool for its own reasons (i.e., calming your mind, or centering your focus), but I think that actively developing your mindfulness involves incorporating it directly into your daily life.: Thanks Sage that's a nutshell I enjoy! Do you think this kind of mindfulness/meditation/presence/wonder within moments during waking life then translating into dreams can help us towards high awareness LD's and thus put us more in line with Dream yoga saying we keep with it?

[Sageous]

^^ In a word, Patience: Yes.