Are Multiple WBTB’s aiding me or hindering me? Any advice?

[Tiktaalik]

Hi all, I’ve been keeping up to a mostly successful practice for the past month and I’m now achieving roughly 1 lucid dream a week (Usually DILD). Obviously I’m quite happy with my success given I’ve only been practicing for just over 2 months but I feel I may be missing 1 piece of the puzzle that could make things easier as my current routine is becoming quite exhausting. My routine: Through the day I may practice the odd RC and do some ADA but my work and home life is rather busy currently so my practice is mainly based in the evening. Before bed I spend a good hour or more getting excited about lucid dreaming. This involves reading threads on here, reading my DJ and doing dream analysis and researching techniques and other related things. Then when I’m in bed at 10:30pm I will relax, clear my mind and set an intention before bed to “Wake up in the middle of my dream and remember it”. Then I will do some light visualisation until I drop off around 11pm. Throughout the night I usually wake between 3 - 5 times and I’ve managed to learn how to do this without an alarm. Usually when I wake I’ll remain still and recall a couple of dreams during each session. What I remember varies from fragments to very vivid dreams. I normally have more success after 4 hours of sleep. After I have recalled what I can which usually takes 5 - 10 minutes I will turn over and repeat a mantra. I’m still working on finding the best mantra for me but usually I do “Stay aware, look for the dream”. Then I fall back asleep and repeat this process multiple times throughout the night until I wake up to my alarm at 7am (8 hours sleep approx. total) Then I record everything in detail in my dream journal. I have done this consistently for a month now and as I mentioned I’ve had some good success with a count of 7 DILD’s and two spontaneous DEILDs in total since I began. I’m also able to recall between 2 - 10 dreams a night. It’s not always smooth sailing though and sometimes during my recall sessions I can become too awake and lose up to an hour or more sleep whilst trying to fall back asleep and that results in me feeling exhausted in the morning. When I’m tired my recall suffers also and so do my chances of getting lucid so sometimes I have to take a break to recover. Overall I feel like this routine works mostly for me. The problem is I can’t seem to get past 1 lucid dream a week and by the end of the week I do feel exhausted which is understandable given how much sleep I probably lose each night. So I’m wondering if maybe I’m over doing it? Am I prioritising dream recall too much over actual sleep? Are the multiple WBTBs aiding me or hindering me? Am I doing too much? Or too little? Im curious what people’s thoughts are on this and if you’ve had similar issues? This is my first post on here so I really appreciate any help you can give me. Thanks.

[Silence11]

What I've found out is that lucidity is best achieved during the final hours prior to you waking up for good. At first I thought it had to do only with the fact that REM sleep stages get longer the more you advance throughout the night. Now, I believe our state of mind is the other big factor to keep in mind. This more than likely has to do with an increase in awareness the closer we are to a full night of sleep. You could also suggest there's an increase in motivation, that it leads to a proper WBTB, a more efficient practice. From little that I know (this is all my opinion anyway), whenever I feel the most tired I notice I have a hard time either: Remembering my dreams Retaining presence in my dreams Attaining lucidity in my dreams I can barely remember fragments of dreams I know were longer, or I breeze through the practice superficially during WBTBs like these. Basically, it is in these moments that I only want to go back to bed, period. On the contrary, the nights I've woken up from a WBTB feeling well rested are ones in which the opposite happens: I can remember long dreams, maybe even vivid ones. I retain greater presence in the dreams I remember, giving me a better opportunity to induce lucidity. I can prepare more before hand, and I know the practice I do during the WBTB period is put to good use. Yes, this can happen even if you wake up during the very early hours of the night (3-5 am in my case, though I'm sort of a night owl, yours might be earlier). Anyway, the point I'm trying to make, is that we should work on playing the game smartly, know what I mean? At least, this is how I organize my nights. If I wake up from the WBTB grumpily, frustrated, excessively tired, then by all means I turn around and get some sleep! If I wake up at 4:30 am feeling pretty good, even if I slept only a couple of hours at most, then sure, go for it, practice for a bit and see if you can get lucid the next time you're dreaming. And even if I fail at these very early WBTBs, I know the real game lies in the last two hours of my sleep. That's when it really matters, what you do, so I'm left unworried. You could say these are the hours we should really tackle, not the very early ones (though I do love me some lucid dreaming if it happens earlier)! This is, of course, all based on what I've seen. Also, if you feel the need to take a day off, go and take some overdue rest, however you may need. I see this hobby a lot like doing exercise, you know. Muscles are only going to get stronger if you let them rest, and so does the mind. I take a day off or two every week, and it's the most relaxing thing one could do. No pressure, just enjoy. And you know what, you come back all the better. Just my two cents Tiktaalik, good night.

[Tiktaalik]

What I've found out is that lucidity is best achieved during the final hours prior to you waking up for good. At first I thought it had to do only with the fact that REM sleep stages get longer the more you advance throughout the night. Now, I believe our state of mind is the other big factor to keep in mind. This more than likely has to do with an increase in awareness the closer we are to a full night of sleep. You could also suggest there's an increase in motivation, that it leads to a proper WBTB, a more efficient practice. Hi Silence11, thank you for taking the time to reply to my message and for the advice and reassurance. I agree with what you’re saying and have been wondering for a while now whether getting a good amount of hours sleep in before I attempt a WBTB has been the issue. I’ve sort of trained myself to wake up consistently through the night and probably awake every 1 - 2 hours and as a result I’ve enjoyed great recall! I’ve therefore felt kind of nervous giving in to sleep as I’m afraid I will forget some decent dreams and maybe even sleep straight through to my wake up alarm without recalling anything which always feels like a wasted night though I try to tell myself it isn’t. I think I have been prioritising recall through the night over sleep and this could be why I struggle some nights. I too have most success in the last 3 hours of the night and have considered if that’s because our minds are rested more and ready to notice and engage with the dreams more in the early hours. I should consider maybe trying to sleep through till 3am at least (4 hours before wake up) to have a higher chance. I’m just nervous to do so encase I sleep straight through till the morning. The obvious answer would be to set an alarm but I sleep next to my partner who I doubt would appreciate an early awakening. I think tonight I will do my usual routine but ignore my first couple of wake ups and see if that helps. Can I ask what do you find is most beneficial during a WBTB? Do you do a mantra and how long do you stay up? Thanks.

[Silence11]

Well it doesn't hurt to try, does it? Anyway, I think you have a higher chance of waking up the further along you go through the night than during the early hours. In my case, for example, it's almost natural for me to wake up 1.5 to 2 hours before my sleep course ends. If you think about it, you've been working on cultivating a habit of waking up after your dreams end. You should give your body and your mind the benefit of the doubt to wake you up at a later time. Whether it works or not, that bridge is for you to cross when you get there. And yet, there is still things you can do to turn things around to make them work out. There's always another night. Can I ask what do you find is most beneficial during a WBTB? Do you do a mantra and how long do you stay up? Thanks. Usually I wake about three times during the night. Once at about or close to the 2 to 3 hour mark, the second at about 5 to 6 hours into sleep, and the last always falls in between 1.5 to 2 hours before I wake up for good. How I decide this falls on a simple intention before bed to wake up at the established hour. For the earliest hours, I may or may not need to drink a full glass of water before bed. The earliest wake up might still be a miss though, depending on how exhausted I was when I went to sleep, but the two others are almost always a given. My WBTBs last anywhere from 15-30 min. depending on how long it took me to record my dreams. I usually write the dream down, take a trip to the bathroom, then return to focus and meditate. As I said, I increase the effort the further along I do the WBTB. So, the last WBTB is the turning point in my practice. The meditation I do, among other things, are nothing complicated. I only try to build enough awareness and memory to last a final dream. Sometimes I do a little MILD, and before last week I was experimenting with all matter of stuff. But after some discussion I figured it was worth settling on improving one's awareness and memory. Then again, I'm just starting out like others. This is what I do, and there are far more talented people in this forum who can provide a more complete guidance.

[Hilary]

Hi Silence11, thank you for taking the time to reply to my message and for the advice and reassurance. I agree with what you’re saying and have been wondering for a while now whether getting a good amount of hours sleep in before I attempt a WBTB has been the issue. I’ve sort of trained myself to wake up consistently through the night and probably awake every 1 - 2 hours and as a result I’ve enjoyed great recall! I’ve therefore felt kind of nervous giving in to sleep as I’m afraid I will forget some decent dreams and maybe even sleep straight through to my wake up alarm without recalling anything which always feels like a wasted night though I try to tell myself it isn’t. I think I have been prioritising recall through the night over sleep and this could be why I struggle some nights. I too have most success in the last 3 hours of the night and have considered if that’s because our minds are rested more and ready to notice and engage with the dreams more in the early hours. I should consider maybe trying to sleep through till 3am at least (4 hours before wake up) to have a higher chance. I’m just nervous to do so encase I sleep straight through till the morning. The obvious answer would be to set an alarm but I sleep next to my partner who I doubt would appreciate an early awakening. I think tonight I will do my usual routine but ignore my first couple of wake ups and see if that helps. Can I ask what do you find is most beneficial during a WBTB? Do you do a mantra and how long do you stay up? Thanks. I hope you don't mind me chiming in. I think we have more success at that time because we have significantly longer REM periods. So a lot more chances to get lucid. And yes, our minds are more awake. I think it's better to do what you're doing, waking up after every cycle, rather than trying to sleep through to 3am. Because you've trained your brain to get more recall. I think what to do during a WBTB depends on what kind of sleeper you are. For me, I am such a light sleeper, if I stay up more than 10 minutes, I'm not going to be able to sleep for hours. But if you're a heavier sleeper, you might need up to an hour. Take what you will from my ideas, because honestly? I haven't been very successful at getting lucid lately.

[Tiktaalik]

I hope you don't mind me chiming in. I think we have more success at that time because we have significantly longer REM periods. So a lot more chances to get lucid. And yes, our minds are more awake. I think it's better to do what you're doing, waking up after every cycle, rather than trying to sleep through to 3am. Because you've trained your brain to get more recall. I think what to do during a WBTB depends on what kind of sleeper you are. For me, I am such a light sleeper, if I stay up more than 10 minutes, I'm not going to be able to sleep for hours. But if you're a heavier sleeper, you might need up to an hour. Take what you will from my ideas, because honestly? I haven't been very successful at getting lucid lately. Thanks for the advice. I have suffered quite a bit with not been able to get back to sleep after WBTB (I believe you and I discussed this briefly on another thread) so WBTBs in the early mornings have been somewhat problematic as I can be too awake and unable to fall back asleep. Sometimes I can be up for 1 - 2 hours which is a nightmare. Recently though I’ve been gentle with myself and saying “Don’t worry about it” and trying to stay relaxed and it has helped me fall back asleep quicker. The trick I’ve found is to not want it too badly and stop focusing too much on the techniques as the most important thing is getting back to sleep.

[Tiktaalik]

Well it doesn't hurt to try, does it? Anyway, I think you have a higher chance of waking up the further along you go through the night than during the early hours. In my case, for example, it's almost natural for me to wake up 1.5 to 2 hours before my sleep course ends. If you think about it, you've been working on cultivating a habit of waking up after your dreams end. You should give your body and your mind the benefit of the doubt to wake you up at a later time. Whether it works or not, that bridge is for you to cross when you get there. And yet, there is still things you can do to turn things around to make them work out. There's always another night. Usually I wake about three times during the night. Once at about or close to the 2 to 3 hour mark, the second at about 5 to 6 hours into sleep, and the last always falls in between 1.5 to 2 hours before I wake up for good. How I decide this falls on a simple intention before bed to wake up at the established hour. For the earliest hours, I may or may not need to drink a full glass of water before bed. The earliest wake up might still be a miss though, depending on how exhausted I was when I went to sleep, but the two others are almost always a given. My WBTBs last anywhere from 15-30 min. depending on how long it took me to record my dreams. I usually write the dream down, take a trip to the bathroom, then return to focus and meditate. As I said, I increase the effort the further along I do the WBTB. So, the last WBTB is the turning point in my practice. The meditation I do, among other things, are nothing complicated. I only try to build enough awareness and memory to last a final dream. Sometimes I do a little MILD, and before last week I was experimenting with all matter of stuff. But after some discussion I figured it was worth settling on improving one's awareness and memory. Then again, I'm just starting out like others. This is what I do, and there are far more talented people in this forum who can provide a more complete guidance. So last night I followed your advice and went to bed with the intention of only waking up in the early hours and get the rest I needed. It did the trick but a little too well and I was a little alarmed to wake up at 5:30am (1.5 hours before I get up). Usually Id have been up 2 or 3 times by this time and recorded a few dreams. Normally I would panic here and feel disappointed at my lack of success and recalled dreams but this time I told myself it’s fine and I did feel more refreshed as you mentioned. I laid in bed for maybe 10 minutes with my eyes closed and managed to recall 3 decent dreams. I then went to the toilet and then back to bed and got comfortable and relaxed whilst repeating my mantra a few times and getting into a trance like sleepy state. It took me maybe 10 minutes to get back to sleep and was maybe 6 - 6:30am when I did drop off. And guess what... I got lucid 🙂 I was having a normal but vivid NLD at first and then I just realised I was dreaming spontaneously without the need to reality check. (I notice this happens more often in my last hour of sleep). I had a decent amount of dream control and clarity and remembered my goal which was to go along with the dream as if I was an actor and the dream was a movie. Problem was nothing was happening in my dream! I was just stood there alone on a street from my childhood so I had to invent something and lost for ideas I decided to summon a T.Rex! (Like you do!) It was quite cool and it came running down my street and people were running from it so I did too. The dream only lasted maybe 5 minutes or so before fading but it was enjoyable as all lucids are. When I awoke it was 6:50am (10 minutes before my alarm!) So anyway thanks for the advice. Focusing on the early hours is definitely the way to go and I think that feeling of been refreshed in the morning when I did my WBTB could have made the difference. I’m going to keep experimenting and find a good balance between sleep and WBTB/ recall but focus mainly on the early hours and aim again to try wake up after 4 hours of sleep as there’s more time to play with then. It’s nice to hear there is a more manageable approach to this technique and I think you and I are on a similar path as to what works for us. Can I ask how often you get lucid and if you do any extensive day time practice?

[Silence11]

Can I ask how often you get lucid and if you do any extensive day time practice? Sorry I took too long to respond. During the day I practice developing self-awareness and memory. Now what does that mean? Well, I'm not entirely sure, and I'm currently figuring things out as I do. Suffice to say, I took self-awareness as a practice for remaining conscious of what I do and what's happening around me, only I've broken things down to a level I can understand (e.g. through an object of focus) to keep things interesting and not too overwhelming. In the nights I do some meditation before bed, and that's about it. I think things are finally working for me, though there is still much to learn. For example, all of my lucid dreams have lasted less than 5-10 seconds. So, the road is long for me ahead. I suggest giving Sageous' thread a read if you have time: https://www.dreamviews.com/wild/1255...mentals-q.html Experiment, and always, always, always, form your own conclusions from whatever you read.

[Tiktaalik]

Hi Silence11 Thanks for replying. I’m also trying to work on building my daytime awareness, it seems to be the key in mastering the art on a long term basis. It’s funny you should mention the sageous thread as I’m half way through reading it myself. I think his concept of the three legged stool makes a lot of sense and different techniques that promote awareness are what I’m trying to develop further. I treat awareness like meditation. I turn off the auto pilot when I can remember and bring my full attention to the here and now. I try to feel my presence in reality, savour the present moment and soak it all in. I am struggling to incorporate better awareness into my day to day though. I work on a computer for most of my work day and rely heavily on my auto pilot to get stuff done fast and efficiently. So figuring out ways to be more alert and aware even for brief moments is a constant challenge. I know it can take years to master so I’m trying to remain patient and positive. I find the ADA approach has also been beneficial to my dreams. Though I have no concrete proof it’s helping me get lucid I do feel like it’s helping me gain more awareness of the present moment and allows me to spot oddities and dream signs more easily. I have also found it’s good practice when you get lucid. Staying within the moment, focused and paying attention to your senses I believe keeps me lucid. I engage all my senses and usually go around the dream scene inspecting things with sight, sound and touch. My lucids are varying between 2 and 5 minutes currently (Though I once had one that felt like 10 minutes doing this very same practice) whilst doing this within the dream I feel it’s more stable and as soon as I try do anything more complex that’s when I usually wake up. It may be worth an experiment. As you mentioned, I’m not following any particular guide with this I’m just reading what’s out there trying things, experimenting and seeing if it has any benefit.