DIELD without a previous dream?

[DrKraken42]

When I wake up with an alarm, I never remember dreams, and I can't wake up naturally (I can use the water technique but that always has problems for me). So I was wondering: if I cooked up a scenario, such as being at a water park, convention, etc, could I do DEILD by visualizing this?

[cooleymd]

pretty much the DE in DEILD stand for by definition Dream Exit so you need to be exiting from some kind of dream, it could be a non-lucid, a DILD or a WILD dream using visualization by itself would be more of a WILD thing, be sure to try it after like 5+hrs of sleep in a WBTB if you don't have tons of WILD experience otherwise you'll likely be lying there for a long time. I often have 'dreamlets' or as I call them halucinations while laying in bed trying to fall asleep, they are as vivid as any dream or real life, but I never manage to WILD from them (not that I try WILD often, but I have succeeded once or twice in DEILD, and I often try to DEILD for a few seconds at least on detected DREAM Exit but usually fail)

[EddieDean]

As cooleymd said, what you want to do is WILD instead of DEILD it is certainly possible (and being used by lots of users here). Especially if you are good at visualization it's a strong and enjoyable technique, so if you feel like doing it, go ahead and try!

[DrKraken42]

Thanks!

[Spock]

I have to somewhat disagree... DEILD just needs you to be sleepy enough, and in the right state to have dreams (in terms of sleep stage) - so as long as you slept, let's say, 5 hours (so that it's like a dream is close by), you can potentially achieve a DEILD without recalling a dream from before. I mean, how do you even know that you haven't woken up from a dream that you just don't remember rather than that you had no dreams at all? I think that the issue is rather in the alarm - maybe try using a shorter alarm or a quiet one (maybe a smart alarm app), so that your recall and sleepiness level won't be effected upon waking up and so you won't have to move. If the alarm issue can't be fixed, and you have to move too much and it wakes you up too much, then as the others said WILD is more appropriate. But it's not because of not recalling the previous dream, it's because of being too awake. Also, you don't have to specifically imagine the previous dream - you can imagine a new scene altogether... Imagining a new scene might be less trivial and require more wakefulness - and with too much wakefulness you risk waking up too much. But if you already have an alternative scene in mind, it shouldn't be any different.

[cooleymd]

Certainly in 5 hrs you would have dreamed, but if your fully awake it isn't dream exit its dream entry and that is WILD, for DEILD it is pretty much seconds at most. I often feel when I attempt to DEILD the following series of events Aware trying to go to sleep..... (much latter) Dreaming Oblivious.... (still latter) Pseudo Aware eyes are flashing.... (tiny bit latter thinking it is moments from when I was trying to fall asleep initially) Stupidly thinking finally I'm falling asleep... (realizing its much latter) Oh Wait I'm not falling asleep I'm falling awake... I was asleep and am seeing my eyes flash at the end of the dream (vaguely grasping at the fading dream)... Don't move... Don't wake fully... Fall into Dream... Its been more than a few seconds I better wake up and recall and journal... FAIL... If you fully wake up its wake back to bed followed by WILD DEILD is a micro awaken or partial awaken or even not awaken but just approach it... its the DREAM EXIT thing that comes into the definitional difference

[EddieDean]

EDIT: What I say beneath is not completely true and after this post comes some more useful information from people who clearly know more about DEILD. I always thought that DEILD, also called 'dream chaining', is when you extend the dream you just had without fully waking. So, you notice an awakening before it fully happens because you either were lucid or you became aware right when the dream started to fade, and then you hold on to the dream you just had, try to grasp it and re-enter it. The important difference between WILD and DEILD is to me that in WILD you form a new dream from being awake, while in DEILD you hold on to the dream you just had without ever fully waking. Spock: I think you are just describing a WBTB WILD; I don't think you can achieve a DEILD without recalling the previous dream, because you have to re-enter it. If you are fully awake and would imagine the dream you just had, you would be performing either WILD (or MILD if you cannot hold consciousness).

[ezzolucid]

STRONGLY disagree with most of this! I am an experienced and expert at DIELD and have undergone every scenario possible. I DEILD most nights and some of the reply above are just wrong (no offense to anyone intended) You absolutley DO NOT have to remember the last dream to dield, you DO NOT even have to visualize a new scene either. Once you have woken, simply keep your eyes closed and repeat 'i am dreaming' This is an anchor as you transition back to sleep, you will experience some weird stuff / vibrations etc. Once you feel these simply get up and enjoy a lucid dream from your bedroom setting (some refer this as an obe) Many Many times i have woken from a dream and rolled over (movement) and gone straight back into a dream lucidly as described above If you wake with the lat dream scene in mind then great! use that image, if not then simply use a mantra Its all about waking within rem and falling back to sleep DEILD is the easiest method of becoming lucid If 2 mins have passed then the moment is gone and you can attempt a wild from there Ezzo

[Spock]

Ezzo, Have you read my reply? That's exactly what I said! Anyway, I agree with what you wrote... cooleymd, So essentially you agree that it's not necessary to have a dream prior to waking up? It's called "dream exit" but maybe a more appropriate name should be "sleep exit" - because as long as you are in the process of waking up or just woke up, you can do a DEILD. Recalling the previous dream has nothing to do with it apart from making the visualization part easier... EddieDean, No - what you're describing is a DEILD of course, but this is only one of the possible situations in which it can be done. DEILD works in other situations too, as long as the following is true: 1. you are in the process of waking up or just woke up 2. you had enough sleep to likely fall into REM or a similar stage (anywhere from 4-8 hours can work, but the lower portion is better for DEILD because of increased sleepiness) 3. instead of doing a WBTB, you just relax and fall back asleep while imagining a scene (whatever comes into mind... if you had a dream before, it's likely to be on your mind) That's it. If by "fully waking up" you mean doing a WBTB / looking at screen / taking a bathroom break - then yes, a DEILD won't work, do some other sort of WILD (FILD, regular, visualization...). But if by "fully waking up" you mean just simply waking up, there in no problem to do a DEILD... It is easier the less woken up you are, and very easy if you haven't even woken up (like from the void). But as long as you don't start to do other stuff (sitting up, looking at screens, etc.) you should still be able to DEILD. (As Ezzo said, if the DEILD failed - wait for a bit and try another sort of WILD. Another note about DEILD - don't try to time yourself, you should feel when it takes too long.) Edit: I just realized that Ezzo pointed out that you don't have to visualize a new scene either. That is true of course, like with any sort of WILD, but the whole point of visualizing is to get the dream that you desire. If you just want a random dream, you can essentially simply wait while maintaining awareness (e.g. using a mantra)...

[cooleymd]

I'm not suggesting I have to remember the dream (such as: ... grasping at...), but unless I have some sign like my eyes flashing (or no eyes flashing, but some memory of the dream I just had), how would I know that I wasn't still just lying in bed with my eyes closed trying to fall asleep believing I have only been in bed 20 min when really its been 200+, certainly most people even those who have never reported lucid dreams have reported going to sleep lying down then looking up at the clock and seeing it is 8 hours latter, and even if they new about clock based reality checks I'm not talking about false awakening but simply the impression that their entire night of sleep passed as if instantly from their perception. It may be true that if awoken in REM and quickly fall back in to dream as a Lucid that is DEILD but equally true would be that you could wake in N-REM and just as quickly succeed in WILD having nothing to do with Dream Exit.

[EddieDean]

Spock, Ezzo: I just read all of the sticky threads on DEILD on these forums and I must admit that I was wrong. I thought I knew what DEILD was, but after reading I found out it isn't as limited as I thought it was. I'm sorry for spreading misinformation and I'll edit my initial post as well. I think that what went wrong in my understanding was treating WILD and DEILD as separate techniques while DEILD is a form of WILD. You are both right in your criticism on my post. Aside from all of this, I feel like this discussion on the definitions of techniques might not be very helpful to anyone trying to get lucid; the name doesn't really matter as long as it gets you lucid, and getting too hung up on techniques isn't really a good thing in itself compared to getting the right mindset.

[ezzolucid]

Ezzo, Have you read my reply? That's exactly what I said! Anyway, I agree with what you wrote... cooleymd, So essentially you agree that it's not necessary to have a dream prior to waking up? It's called "dream exit" but maybe a more appropriate name should be "sleep exit" - because as long as you are in the process of waking up or just woke up, you can do a DEILD. Recalling the previous dream has nothing to do with it apart from making the visualization part easier... EddieDean, No - what you're describing is a DEILD of course, but this is only one of the possible situations in which it can be done. DEILD works in other situations too, as long as the following is true: 1. you are in the process of waking up or just woke up 2. you had enough sleep to likely fall into REM or a similar stage (anywhere from 4-8 hours can work, but the lower portion is better for DEILD because of increased sleepiness) 3. instead of doing a WBTB, you just relax and fall back asleep while imagining a scene (whatever comes into mind... if you had a dream before, it's likely to be on your mind) That's it. If by "fully waking up" you mean doing a WBTB / looking at screen / taking a bathroom break - then yes, a DEILD won't work, do some other sort of WILD (FILD, regular, visualization...). But if by "fully waking up" you mean just simply waking up, there in no problem to do a DEILD... It is easier the less woken up you are, and very easy if you haven't even woken up (like from the void). But as long as you don't start to do other stuff (sitting up, looking at screens, etc.) you should still be able to DEILD. (As Ezzo said, if the DEILD failed - wait for a bit and try another sort of WILD. Another note about DEILD - don't try to time yourself, you should feel when it takes too long.) Edit: I just realized that Ezzo pointed out that you don't have to visualize a new scene either. That is true of course, like with any sort of WILD, but the whole point of visualizing is to get the dream that you desire. If you just want a random dream, you can essentially simply wait while maintaining awareness (e.g. using a mantra)... Hey, i love a lively discussion :-D Anyways, Spock is 100% correct in his descriptions. Just to clarify ... given the right circumstance (waking out of REM, still tired and not fully conscious) and you keep still (as much as possible) and you remember to DIELD then just about anything you do will work. Essentially at that point you are falling asleep and transitioning back into REM and dreams. Now normally for the wider population you would naturally let go of any awareness and simply sleep / dream but what we are dfoing is holding onto a small nugget of awareness whilst our body falls asleep around us. If we visualize then that may form the dream. If we listen to the ringing in our ears then that will soon sound as loud as a jet engine, if you imagine you are running then those kinetic feelings will feel real etc, if you read 'The Phase' there are dozens of thing suggested that you can do in the few seconds when you transition From Cooleymd. I'm not suggesting I have to remember the dream (such as: ... grasping at...), but unless I have some sign like my eyes flashing (or no eyes flashing, but some memory of the dream I just had), how would I know that I wasn't still just lying in bed with my eyes closed trying to fall asleep believing I have only been in bed 20 min when really its been 200+, This is a great question and one that I had to figure out for myself. Nearly every time that i have transitioned, I rarley picture a scene to enter. What normally happens is that within seconds i experience strong vibrations and at this point I simply get up out of bed into a dream. The best approach is that if you are still lying there after about 90 seconds then perform a nose pinch reality check. If youre awake then you can either return to sleep to try again or attempt a WILD @Spock It's called "dream exit" but maybe a more appropriate name should be "sleep exit" Yes, i think dream exit is misleading and 'sleep exit' is more descriptive. We could even go 1 further and call it 'Rem reentry' or remtree :-/ Ezzo :-)

[Spock]

I'm not suggesting I have to remember the dream (such as: ... grasping at...), but unless I have some sign like my eyes flashing (or no eyes flashing, but some memory of the dream I just had), how would I know that I wasn't still just lying in bed with my eyes closed trying to fall asleep believing I have only been in bed 20 min when really its been 200+ certainly most people even those who have never reported lucid dreams have reported going to sleep lying down then looking up at the clock and seeing it is 8 hours latter, and even if they new about clock based reality checks I'm not talking about false awakening but simply the impression that their entire night of sleep passed as if instantly from their perception. I mean, for me it's not such a common thing to be completely clueless about how late it is, and sometimes sounds in the room or brightness levels can give a hint (a momentary opening of the eyes doesn't interfere with DEILDs, at least for me). However, you are right - there is no way to know for sure. But performing the DEILD takes a couple of minutes at most - so just assume that it's the correct time to do it, and do it. If it works - great! If it doesn't, you lost a couple of minutes at most, and nothing is stopping you from doing another WILD variation after a WBTB. Of course, you also run the risk of falling asleep into deep sleep if it doesn't work, but the chances of waking up during the early hours of the night are pretty low normally - so you're much more likely to wake up in the appropriate time for a DEILD. Plus, losing awareness while falling asleep is always a risk - it's not specific to this case. About FAs, as Ezzo said - FAs are a risk of course. But it is the same in all WILD class techs - which is why it's so important to question and RC every awakening. How is that any different from a FA after a "regular" WILD, or a SSILD, or a VILD? @Spock It's called "dream exit" but maybe a more appropriate name should be "sleep exit" Yes, i think dream exit is misleading and 'sleep exit' is more descriptive. We could even go 1 further and call it 'Rem reentry' or remtree :-/ "REM reentry" has also the potential to get confusing since not all dreams occur in proper REM stage, and stages are not always as clear cut as we speak of them. Which is why in my reply I tried to avoid referring specifically to REM and instead wrote things like "REM or a similar stage" This is why I actually prefer calling DEILD by the name I saw on a different forum about 6 years ago - CHILD (for CHaining Induced...) - so that it's up to you what exactly are you trying to "chain", haha... Either way, EddieDean is right that it's more about terminology than anything else, so I don't really care how it's called as long as everyone is familiar with the term.

[sisyphus]

I don't want to be glib. There's good dialogue in this thread and I hope it continues. May I suggest though, that the theme is the futility of acronyms.

[cooleymd]

Well given that Ezzo has said elsewhere he often used a REM detection device like the REM-Dreamer he wouldn't need to realize he had been dreaming or that he was waking from one (as with my flashing eyes upon dream exit, which only happens for me immediately following dream exit even if I don't remember it, hence my 'falling asleep' confusion) since the REM-Dreamer is acting as his wake up alarm in this case he would be waking from an unremembered and internally unrecognized, but externally recognized via EILD REM detection, and thus would qualify for 'DE'ILD as in Dream Exit. as to the comment WEILD'ed (WAKE EXIT INDUCED LUCID DREAM) about acronyms well to be frankly quite glib is: Surely Indiscriminately Stating Your Philologically Haphazardly Useless Suggestion (SISYPHUS)

[sisyphus]

as to the comment WEILD'ed (WAKE EXIT INDUCED LUCID DREAM) about acronyms well to be frankly quite glib is: Surely Indiscriminately Stating Your Philologically Haphazardly Useless Suggestion (SISYPHUS) I deserve that barb. And your delivery was clever, so I appreciate the irony on multiple levels.

[tasinios]

Hello people.I chained my dreams 2-3 times last night.It was cool.In fact it was like watching a TV series and goi from the previous to the next episode.Like a continuous story.But i wasnt lucid in any of the dreams.Upon waking up i was thinking of the dream.One time was really wanting to go back lucod this time to really change that dream because it was terrible...basically i poisoned my cat and she was dying...terrible....but i didnt go lucid back in the dream even though i really wanted it.Any ideas?Also the dreams happened in my house and i wasnt aware of the things in the house to become lucid.

[cooleymd]

Never mess with our Acrynyms COOLEYMD (Continuously Oneirically Onward Lucidly Enjoining Yet More Dreams)

[Spock]

I chained my dreams 2-3 times last night.It was cool.In fact it was like watching a TV series and goi from the previous to the next episode.Like a continuous story.But i wasnt lucid in any of the dreams.Upon waking up i was thinking of the dream. Yes, this happens sometimes on it's own - a dream that repeats itself with some variation or just some other sort for episodic story-line. I wouldn't say "chained" (since chaining by desire requires awareness / lucidity), unless you purposely chained them upon waking up, and only lost lucidity after reentering? If so, it's great because you were very close! The problematic step appears to be maintaining awareness - this takes practice, but some steps that can help: 1. try to remind yourself "I'm dreaming", while visualizing the previous dream 2. imagine yourself preforming RCs in the visualized scene - and imagine the result to be a positive one (e.g. imagine having too many fingers if your RC is counting them) 3. focus on some key element of the scene, and remember that it's going to be a dream the next time you see that element. This way, even if you lose lucidity along the way, seeing that element is likely to trigger a DILD. I'll give you a recent personal example - I had a dream with a tiger in it (non-lucid) and while waking up decided to chain back in. So I mentally focused "the next time I see a tiger it's going to be a dream". I lost lucidity, but had a DILD the moment the tiger appeared in the dream. One time was really wanting to go back lucod this time to really change that dream because it was terrible...basically i poisoned my cat and she was dying...terrible....but i didnt go lucid back in the dream even though i really wanted it.Any ideas?Also the dreams happened in my house and i wasnt aware of the things in the house to become lucid. Hard to say... What steps have you taken to DEILD? Which step exactly went wrong? I think we'll need more specific information to give any insightful advice... But I suspect the issue was in maintaining lucidity - if so, see above.