Thread: Stop Drop and Roll. Why Lucidology and Nicholas Newport are creating misinformation.

THIS ENTIRE TOPIC WAS STARTED OFF VERY BIASED AND NEGATIVE.
WE SHOULD RESTART THIS SUBJECT - READ BELOW FOR REASONS.

I have seen this thread but I disagree with its title. It is also obvious that the creator of this thread is biased against Nicholas Newport, not necessarily the methods or whether he is knowledgeable or not. I personally think that if we are going to discuss someone's methods here we should start it off as an unbiased discussion about the methods and determine from the beginning whether the information is or is not correct. I have posted a fair and honest way to start this discussion in a new thread and it should over-ride a post of the same topic starting with negative opinions, even in its very title.

Can we please start this discussion fresh and unbiased at the thread linked below and discontinue this thread.

Lucidology 101 & Nicholas Newport (Entire Video Course And Discussion Here)

Originally Posted by atkins513

THIS ENTIRE TOPIC WAS STARTED OFF VERY BIASED AND NEGATIVE.
WE SHOULD RESTART THIS SUBJECT - READ BELOW FOR REASONS.

I have seen this thread but I disagree with its title. It is also obvious that the creator of this thread is biased against Nicholas Newport, not necessarily the methods or whether he is knowledgeable or not. I personally think that if we are going to discuss someone's methods here we should start it off as an unbiased discussion about the methods and determine from the beginning whether the information is or is not correct. I have posted a fair and honest way to start this discussion in a new thread and it should over-ride a post of the same topic starting with negative opinions, even in its very title.

Can we please start this discussion fresh and unbiased at the thread linked below and discontinue this thread.

Lucidology 101 & Nicholas Newport (Entire Video Course And Discussion Here)

Atkins513 why have you put your new thread in the general dream discussion sub-forum?

That sub-forum's subtitle says, 'This is for discussion of general non-lucid dream topics'

The opening words on the videos is, 'How to trick your body into falling asleep to quickly start having lots of OBE's and lucid dreams without using any visualisations...'

This new thread should be in the attaining lucidity sub-forum just like this thread.

Originally Posted by atkins513

THIS ENTIRE TOPIC WAS STARTED OFF VERY BIASED AND NEGATIVE.
WE SHOULD RESTART THIS SUBJECT - READ BELOW FOR REASONS.

I have seen this thread but I disagree with its title. It is also obvious that the creator of this thread is biased against Nicholas Newport, not necessarily the methods or whether he is knowledgeable or not. I personally think that if we are going to discuss someone's methods here we should start it off as an unbiased discussion about the methods and determine from the beginning whether the information is or is not correct. I have posted a fair and honest way to start this discussion in a new thread and it should over-ride a post of the same topic starting with negative opinions, even in its very title.

Can we please start this discussion fresh and unbiased at the thread linked below and discontinue this thread.

Lucidology 101 & Nicholas Newport (Entire Video Course And Discussion Here)

If a mod will move it for me to the attaining lucidity that would be fine, but I think we should kill the discussion in this thread and continue at my new link.

---- PLEASE DO NOT POST BELOW --- CONTINUE DISCUSSION IN THE NEW THREAD ABOVE IN GREEN-----

So, I'm a newbie to WILDs, and relearning Lucid Dreaming (as a kid, nightmares, and thus lucid dreams, just kinda came nature), and I can say that I have (or was?) certainly taken by the videos. Not every aspect (I remember thinking the graphs/pictures were often silly, and the ending of each video, with it's "Here's How to Order" bit felt funny), but I liked coupling the idea of hypnagogic imagery and tactile sensations, with a "move" signal (roll over didn't seem to work in my head, cause I know everyone starts and ends in different positions when they sleep).

Okay, so are there brain signals that test whether we're ready to be paralyzed? Because I came so close upon my first attempt, but I never read (UNTIL this guy's videos) that I had to keep my eyes still (I figured, "R.E.M.", right?), and after an hour of drifting on the cusp of unconsciousness, my whole body seized up. I thought it was anticipation, but I was really mostly unaware it was about to happen. After watching his videos, I thought maybe it was the brain getting tired of getting the mixed message of my body not moving one iota, but my eyes going crazy, zapped me to see for sure whether I was awake or not, cause I wasn't in sleep paralysis.

I agree with others here, the best way to fight fire is WITH fire, and his videos are still FAR better than most peoples on YouTube (except maybe another salesman, lucidpedia.com, and their videos). Most people discussing lucidity on YouTube look like tripped out hippies, losers in their parents' basements, etc., and I'd rather take advice from the guy who can shave, dress himself and at least knows how to put together a sales pitch.

Help us newbies! lol

~oneironeer

Hey Thanks for posting. WE ARE PICKING UP THIS DISCUSSION AT THE LINK BELOW Please copy and paste your message into that forum.

http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucidology-101-nicholas-newport-entire-video-course-here-109585/

Originally Posted by atkins513

Hey Thanks for posting. WE ARE PICKING UP THIS DISCUSSION AT THE LINK BELOW Please copy and paste your message into that forum.

Hey you can't just hijack someones thread and start a new one and tell everyone to post there instead just because you don't agree with its title.
Although I agree the OP is very biased.

I watched a couple of his videos and i have to say they are very boring... They are far too long and he does take a long time to say something that is really very simple. If he is making an infomercial, then he is doing it wrong. Adverts are fast paced, punchy. They get the points across quickly and are easy to understand. This guy is doing to opposite, I had to stop the video halfway because I was kinda bored by it.

As for the science behind it... well Ive seen a lot of people on this site claim to be 'experts' with similarly dubious advice and science. The only difference here is that this guy is making a profit from it. If people want to pay for his stuff when there is good advice available freely all over the internet, then tat is up to them. But I dont see how his advice can be 'harmful'.
But whatever, Im sure the free videos he provided do contain some interesting stuff if you can sit through them. Just take away what you want then use a free guide from dreamviews to achieve lucid instead of paying for it.

With plenty of lucidity to my own credit I have to break it to you that whether the video is boring or not, I have used most of everything he has discussed at least once successfully or in combination with another one of his methods... Most of everything he teaches has science or common sense behind it, yet is unheard of on most forums. I see your new to this site so if you have not had your first, I suggest being open to what is available to you before dogging on it. I will be the first tell you that many of the methods discussed here on this site will sound unconventional or even silly at times but will yield a high success rate for some people..

As far as making a profit goes.. umm there is this one guy... umm man, its kind of slipping me.. darnit.. OH ya..

Stephen Laberge.. The personal savior and Christ to many lucid dreamers and everything he teaches revolves around selling. His website is booking spots for his camps right on the front page and selling books.. You think this website isn't selling anything.. see the ads at the top of this page? EVERYONE IS SELLING SOMETHING. Understandably so, Im sure the people who own this forum pay for bandwidth and put a lot of their own time into this site so I'm cool with them earning an income... So if the lucidology series is proving successful for many people, which it is, I am one. Then so what if the guy sells his second video series CONSIDERING his first one is completely free anyway?

Just today I found a post ( i can point you if you want) where this guy claims to have found a new method for lucid dreaming and gets all kinds of credit for people having lds through his thread, yet he was quoting one of the lucidology only methods word for word lol.... I've seen this more than once..

Maybe I'm in a bad mood but It's a bad way to start off honestly... lets try to get off to a new start here... The videos give good advice, the guy works hard on his methods... if he is pioneering new methods, he deserves to earn a living just as much as the next yohoo.. they are all the same to me, yet some of them have good information and should get a little credit.

Originally Posted by atkins513

You've got 10 post into this site and you come in here trying to run it? lol...

No, Im trying to point out that you cant just declare 'thread closed' because as far as I can see...you are not a mod.
For example:

Originally Posted by atkins513

---- PLEASE DO NOT POST BELOW --- CONTINUE DISCUSSION IN THE NEW THREAD ABOVE IN GREEN-----

And Im trying to run the place?


But as you seem to want to compare post counts and lucids as if it even matters, I'll point out that Ive had many lucid dreams and have been having them for many years. Just because I'm new to the site doesnt mean I can't call it like I see it.


I think you read the rest of my post wrong. I was really responding to the original post by spaceexplorer. I thought that they were very biased in their view whereas I didnt really see a problem with the videos. As for the profit thing, what I meant was that I think this is the main issue why spaceexplorer is so against his work. They see it as profiting from wrong advice. Personally I cannot see any problem with it, because I do not see the advice as wrong, just 'alternative'.
Thats why I said, you could watch his videos and then use a free guide on the internet to WBTB, WILD or any other technique. There is nothing pressuring people to buy his stuff, so i dont see why spaceexplorer is so angry about it. Nicholas Newport is not a 'danger' to those wanting to attain lucidity. In fact, as you have proved, many find it helpful.

As for the videos being boring. Thats just my opinion. Its okay to express our opinions here isnt it? Or do I need 400+ post count before I can do that?

Originally Posted by LostOnTrains

No, Im trying to point out that you cant just declare 'thread closed' because as far as I can see...you are not a mod.
For example:

And Im trying to run the place?


But as you seem to want to compare post counts and lucids as if it even matters, I'll point out that Ive had many lucid dreams and have been having them for many years. Just because I'm new to the site doesnt mean I can't call it like I see it.


I think you read the rest of my post wrong. I was really responding to the original post by spaceexplorer. I thought that they were very biased in their view whereas I didnt really see a problem with the videos. As for the profit thing, what I meant was that I think this is the main issue why spaceexplorer is so against his work. They see it as profiting from wrong advice. Personally I cannot see any problem with it, because I do not see the advice as wrong, just 'alternative'.
Thats why I said, you could watch his videos and then use a free guide on the internet to WBTB, WILD or any other technique. There is nothing pressuring people to buy his stuff, so i dont see why spaceexplorer is so angry about it. Nicholas Newport is not a 'danger' to those wanting to attain lucidity. In fact, as you have proved, many find it helpful.

As for the videos being boring. Thats just my opinion. Its okay to express our opinions here isnt it? Or do I need 400+ post count before I can do that?

As you can see I had already edited my previous statement because I didn't mean to come off rude, and you still managed to reply to it lol... of course anyone can find a video boring.. I find the videos boring as well but I try to hang in there to get the information that seems worthwhile.. and I will allow opinions as long as they are in line :p lol,, obviously im kidding, lets try to lighten up... I didn't mean it the way I originally came off

btw, if you didnt read my edited statement, do so now, I added some info I think is worthwhile

Originally Posted by atkins513

Just today I found a post ( i can point you if you want) where this guy claims to have found a new method for lucid dreaming and gets all kinds of credit for people having lds through his thread, yet he was quoting one of the lucidology only methods word for word lol.... I've seen this more than once.

Link please.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

Link please.

attain-sleep-paralysis-lucid-dreaming-within-about-20-minutes

method #1 and method #2, both taken directly from the lucidology series.
Especially #1 for I have seen this nowhere but in this series and it works very well...
#2 Actually, number 2 works really well too when done correctly.. You just really have to resist the urge to move and sp seems to hit much faster.

Am I the only one who thinks DREAMING is a public domain kind of thing, and while people CONSTANTLY make profit off of public domain items (cheap DVD transfers of classics that slipped into pd, like His Girl Friday, or Max Fleischer's Superman cartoons -- to classical musicians performing hundreds-year-old pieces, etc.), it's not something you can slap ownership on and lay claim to?

So if someone wants to create a method and tutorial for Lucid Dreaming, Dream Recall, or whatever, and sell a book or DVD on it, it's their right. HOWEVER; if someone turns around and reinvents the reinvented wheel, the last guy who sold a book can't claim he's been ripped off. That'd be like Stephen Laberge suing all these forums and every book/DVD out there, and then getting sued himself by Buddhist monks. It's ridiculous.

But it's also ridiculous to hijack a thread because it started a discussion that has veered into a direction you don't particular agree with. Keep the discussion/argument in that thread. Freaking-a, I'm a re-newbie, and I'm just trying to get critical thinkers opinions on methods/websites, such as Lucidology, Lucidpedia, etc., but then I get the run-around and misdirected because someone wants to defend their personal favorite method. That's fine, defend it, but do it where the discussion began or create your own without trolling the original. It's just rude.

~oneironeer

Realize something. I did not start the other thread because this one veered off in some direction I didn't like, I started the new one because this thread started with MISINFORMATION against proven methods.. I want Newbies like you to get the best results possible, therefore you should not be mis-informed by misinforming threads. My New thread starts off completely unbiased and with a poll so people have the option to decide if they agree or disagree. This thread starts off biased and ignorant towards the author of lucidology, thus also spreading misinformation about the methods. I want to help you guys, not hurt you guys. I think you deserve to be presented this information with an understanding that it works very very well for many people, but may not work for others.. not with some ignorant start about -WHY THIS GUY SUCKS AND DONT LISTEN TO ANYTHING HE SAYS... Why do people not understand the importance in presenting things off in an unbiased manner and why I started the new thread?

I want to start a new thread and call it "Lucid Dreaming - Why dreamviews is creating misinformation" or "Lucid dreaming - Stephen Laberge creating misinformation" haha.. then im gonna go on to talk about Stephen Laberge how most of his methods or wrong... Oh, but I'll guarantee someone will have a problem with either of those topics... haha

Seriously, MANY MANY people such as myself and others have much success with the methods of lucidology. Why in the world should we have a post that automatically redirects people away from trying those methods?? Instead shouldn't we have a thread about the methods and let everyone choose for themselves? Such as below.

http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucido...e-here-109585/

Its not about the fact that you created a new thread, its was a good idea to do that because you are free to express yourself... but so is the OP of this thread too. Therefore, the thread shouldn't just be 'closed' by drawing a line and telling people to stop posting here.

I agree with LostonTrains. Don't try to get a thread closed or tell people to take the discussion to your thread, just because you don't like this one. Just be happy that you are being allowed to have a separate thread, considering there is already this one.

I'm sure that if there were question about which one of these threads to delete my thread would probably still remain considering the original poster hasnt been on the site in over 13 months and now brings nothing to the community. I really do appreciate being part of this community and helping to develop it even though some of the contradictions here annoy me. For instance, someone makes a informative video series and gives away the entire first series yet sells the second series. His name is chastised and his methods attacked. Another man sells books, camp events, and continues to this day but he is a god in many of your eyes. Even though you claim that lucid dreaming should be free (which I agree 100 percent) but never seem to have a problem with Stephen Laberge selling everywhere yet people keep referencing him as a master.

This is my last post in this thread if I can manage to keep myself away from it .I am tired of having to explain its obvious ridiculousness. Even if you don't like Nicholas Newport. Even if his methods do not work for you personally. They do work. Not only do his methods work for many people but they are also free.. Yes they work and they are free. When I was a newbie myself I had my first Lucid Dream using his timer method in correlation with this Sleep Paralysis methods. Since then at least 60 percent of my lucidness can be attributed to the methods of lucidology. Many of those methods such as the "translucent eyelids effect" I have never seen discussed here unless they were in relation to someone asking questions about lucidology. The "translucent eyelids effect" is the very first indicator in realizing I am dreaming in many cases. Most of the other methods he speaks of (that i also haven't seen here) work just as well and I use them regularly depending on the induction.

Newbies ALMOST always come across the lucidology series in the beginning so It would be wise that we discuss it here in an unbiased fashion. If you fellow seasoned lucid dreamers and moderators want to help newbies as much as I do, then it seems you would want them to have all weapons available in their arsenal as opposed to deterring them away from methods that do work for many many people.

One other point about the lucidology series. The entire first 12 videos of the series are presented completely free even though they do advertise. I did purchase the 2nd video course a long while ago but later ended up finding it somewhere and downloading it on the internet so not only is it very informative but its also pretty easy to continue the second course for free if you can't afford it.

Onto the mis-information of this thread.
----------------------------
ORIGINAL POST WITH CORRECTIONS BELOW


Hi Everyone.
I just wanted to put a warning out there for newbie lucid dreamers, and those of you who have perhaps come across the work of Nicholas Newport aka Lucidology.com or luciddreamtricks (on youtube). It would seem that what we have here is an individual who is looking to promote themselves as an "expert" in the field of lucid dreaming to earn a quick buck, However, it's important to note that Mr Newport, has no qualifications, history or any clear experience to justify his choosing to call himself an expert. It does get worse though, having watched all his videos, I would warn any newbie lucid dreamer, to IGNORE his suggestions. You will be wasting your time. Most if not all the information is incorrect at best. At worst it is completely misleading.

He promotes himself as an expert just like many other "experts" in the field of lucid dreaming. His "qualifications, history, and clear experience"
come from his own declaration. This entire topic of lucid dreaming is based on the trust system. When one of the lucid dreamers in this forum claim to have had an experience, we believe it. Nicholas claims to have had thousands of Lucid dreams as do a few people on these forums as well.. I believe he does because he seems to have an "inside" understanding of lucid dreaming as someone with history of doing so would. As for having watched his videos and claiming that no one should trust anything he says? This is creating misinformation itself. It is obvious that the methods did not work for the original poster or he didn't try them. However, as I have said many times now, many of these methods work for me with an accuracy rate that is even surprising to me. So if "newbies" were to follow the advise of this now absent poster, they would be possibly screwing themselves out of many many lucid experiences, or at least a later start than what may have been possible.

Also bear in mind that his ultimate goal is to convince you of his expertise so that you will then part with your cash for stage 2 of the course. Opinion of someone who failed using these techniques and quite possibly failed as a lucid dreamer but still opinion.

He uses an array of marketing and advertising tricks to try to fool you. He firstly, has created his own language for lucid dreaming. Including methods, terminology and buzz words. He's basically trying to reinvent the wheel, so he can then claim he invented the wheel and sell it to you. What right has he to invade the subject of lucid dreaming, call himself an expert, and then confuse and mislead people by creating new terminology for methods and terms that are embeded in the culture of lucid dreaming?


Marketing and advertising tricks to fool you? Hmm, He adds an intentional advertisement at the end of each video to sell his second series. That is marketing, not a marketing trick, and it isnt fooling anyone. Its obvious. Created his own buzzwords, methods, and terminology? Strange, many of us on the forum seem to do this daily. We create new words to explain things we don't understand, create new methods that sometimes work great and sometimes fail. We also create new terminology for methods that we are testing in many times that there is nothing already existing that explains it in the way we feel suitable. Didn't Stephen Laberge create new terminology and aren't we all creating new terminology every day? Thats a great reason to chastise this guy. What claim is he making for being the creator of lucid dreaming? He isn't, in fact, he mentions reading many books by others on lucid dreaming so obviously he didn't create it.....



Secondly, he trys to blind you with "science". I put science in quotation marks, because it is far from science. It reminds me of infomercials, and shampoo adverts where they say "here comes the science bit", then show you a load of meaningless graphs and numbers, all that make no sense, just to confuse you into thinking they know what they are talking about.
He DOSN'T know what he is talking about.


"Trys to Blind you with science"? Trys haha, Then blabs about shampoo commercials.
Ok, the same "science" he discusses in the videos are the same "science" stephen laberge talks about on a regular basis. Most of the "science" from the lucidology series is also the same science that was proven by Stephen Laberge.


Let me take an example:
In his STOP DROP AND ROLL video A ten minute long video, that can basically be summed up in one sentence: "if you're trying to have a wild, don't move too much" But here are the huge flaws in his theory: He claims something called Mind Body Independence saying: mind body independence. The mind never knows precisely what the body is doing and vice versa. He then trys to prove this by stating that hair grows on your body, and your mind dosn't know about it, or that digestive systems work without the mind being aware of it. Kind of vaguely true on the surface, but he takes these and other similar points, then draws the conclusion that: The body will test to see if the mind is asleep by sending (here comes his own terminology) roll over signals. A roll over signal apparently is any urge to move, or any pain in the body, when trying to go to sleep. These are "test signals" being sent by the body, to test if the brain is asleep (rather than just maybe, being uncomfortable.)
What he fails to address is: WHERE IS THIS DECISION BEING MADE?
Which part of the body, independent from the brain chooses to send a signal to test the brain? The spleen? the testicles? the heart? Also he fails to recognise that the mind and body are NOT INDEPENDENT there are a complete system in constant communication via the NERVOUS SYSTEM. He also fails to recognise that Sleep Paralysis (which he claims is a choice made by the body when it thinks the mind is asleep) is actually as far as science knows, controlled from within the brain pons region of the brain.



Ok, first of all in the stop drop and roll series he explains a communication theory he has about how to tell the body you are ready to sleep. Its hypothetical and he even explains that is it something he discovered that worked for him, but its still hypothetical. Secondly in the stop drop and roll series he talks about Mind/body independence. He says that the body is always doing things separately form the mind. This is true. The brain does not send constant signals to each cell and tell it to reproduce or to each hair follicle and tell it to grow hair. There is a separation in what the mind controls and what the body controls that science recognizes. Science doesn't account for what causes sleep paralysis directly but they believe sleep paralysis is closely related to REM Atoniaia. So we can't say whether Nicholas Newport is correct or not about sleep paralysis but the fact is that we can't say for certain either way. His opinions of laying perfectly still are echoed here throughout dreamviews again and again. So we all know this is important for bringing on sleep paralysis because it works. We all also know that when we seem to be getting very close to SP, itching/being very uncomfortable are also very common and we have to try to ignore it to continue. So these theories do in fact seem reliable. I don't personally believe he means that sleep paralysis is controlled by a thought process of the body, but it does seem that one part of the mind tests another part of the mind to test its state. We do know that many parts of the mind are independent from one another so this is possible. So it would be possible that one part of the mind may send test signals to the body to see if another part of the mind would respond, thus meaning it is not sleeping. But this is hypothetical as well. He sarcastically mentions that maybe we are just uncomfortable and need to move? It seems that no matter how comfortable we position ourselves we still get these urges to move.. so where do they come from and for what purpose? It is unknown.. so this theory also is sensible, although still theory.


There are endless contradictions to science, the science of lucidity, basic biology etc. etc. etc. throughout his videos. More opinion without evidence

If i had the time, I would like to break down each of his videos and point out the flaws and misinformation in them. Unfortunatly I do not have the time.
May I suggest it possibly a DreamViews project, that intelligent memebers of the forum, help educate the new members to the misinformation in these videos?
This is what my thread is for, and what my thread is currently in the process of for those of you following it. I am breaking down the misinformation in THESE videos.

Anyhow, just a warning.
Don't believe everything you seen on YouTube.
Be extra wary when someone is trying to sell you something, and trying to blind you with made up science and lots of graphs, that if you take the time to look at, actually MAKE NO SENSE.
Lucidolgy.com may not be exactly a scam in the classic sense of the word.
But it is certainly hugely misleading, misinformation and bad for the subject of lucid dreaming. Its close enough to a scam for my tastes.
Be warned.


Don't believe everything you see on YouTube. Thanks, I'm pretty sure that part is common sense. The graphs on lucidology actually make A LOT of sense.. for instance how he shows hovering on the wake/asleep threshold makes it much more likely to lucid dream.. Yes, this is true and we know this, hence many methods to induce lucid dreaming use this. Wake back to bed, and many more. So this part is completely incorrect. "it is certainly hugely misleading, misinformation and bad for the subject of lucid dreaming. Its close enough to a scam for my tastes."More opinion and completely incorrect in my experience as well as many others experience.

So there we have it. And thank god its over, but I have just proven that exact original post of misinformation is in fact very mis-informative . Why does it even exists here in the first place? Thankfully he even suggested that someone create a new topic and truly break down Lucidology and the methods. Ahem... So he actually gave support to exactly what I am doing? That's interesting. For those of you who would like to continue a real discussion on lucidology and its methods.. including the accuracies and likelihood of them working (good or bad) feel free to continue at my thread below. Otherwise I'm really done wasting time on this thread. Thanks for reading everyone as this post took me 2 hours to write.. I hope it cleared a few things up.

I'm seriously only doing this because I want to help people. I even mentioned you can watch the "paid" series if you don't have a way to contribute to the author if you must, but I can't link it. All this information is available for free. Just because the guy tries to sell his "advanced" methods doesn't mean they aren't worthwhile. Stephen Laberge sells his information but I've never bought a Stephen Laberge book even though I've read them. Try not to be too defensive here. I'm just pointing out the obvious.

http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucido...e-here-109585/

Thanx Atkins513

if folks find the green hard to read try highlighting it, if you can, then it is easier on the eyes.

Originally Posted by atkins513

I'm sure that if there were question about which one of these threads to delete my thread would probably still remain considering the original poster hasnt been on the site in over 13 months and now brings nothing to the community. I really do appreciate being part of this community and helping to develop it even though some of the contradictions here annoy me. For instance, someone makes a informative video series and gives away the entire first series yet sells the second series. His name is chastised and his methods attacked. Another man sells books, camp events, and continues to this day but he is a god in many of your eyes. Even though you claim that lucid dreaming should be free (which I agree 100 percent) but never seem to have a problem with Stephen Laberge selling everywhere yet people keep referencing him as a master.

This is my last post in this thread if I can manage to keep myself away from it .I am tired of having to explain its obvious ridiculousness. Even if you don't like Nicholas Newport. Even if his methods do not work for you personally. They do work. Not only do his methods work for many people but they are also free.. Yes they work and they are free. When I was a newbie myself I had my first Lucid Dream using his timer method in correlation with this Sleep Paralysis methods. Since then at least 60 percent of my lucidness can be attributed to the methods of lucidology. Many of those methods such as the "translucent eyelids effect" I have never seen discussed here unless they were in relation to someone asking questions about lucidology. The "translucent eyelids effect" is the very first indicator in realizing I am dreaming in many cases. Most of the other methods he speaks of (that i also haven't seen here) work just as well and I use them regularly depending on the induction.

Newbies ALMOST always come across the lucidology series in the beginning so It would be wise that we discuss it here in an unbiased fashion. If you fellow seasoned lucid dreamers and moderators want to help newbies as much as I do, then it seems you would want them to have all weapons available in their arsenal as opposed to deterring them away from methods that do work for many many people.

One other point about the lucidology series. The entire first 12 videos of the series are presented completely free even though they do advertise. I did purchase the 2nd video course a long while ago but later ended up finding it somewhere and downloading it on the internet so not only is it very informative but its also pretty easy to continue the second course for free if you can't afford it.

Onto the mis-information of this thread.
----------------------------
ORIGINAL POST WITH CORRECTIONS BELOW


Hi Everyone.
I just wanted to put a warning out there for newbie lucid dreamers, and those of you who have perhaps come across the work of Nicholas Newport aka Lucidology.com or luciddreamtricks (on youtube). It would seem that what we have here is an individual who is looking to promote themselves as an "expert" in the field of lucid dreaming to earn a quick buck, However, it's important to note that Mr Newport, has no qualifications, history or any clear experience to justify his choosing to call himself an expert. It does get worse though, having watched all his videos, I would warn any newbie lucid dreamer, to IGNORE his suggestions. You will be wasting your time. Most if not all the information is incorrect at best. At worst it is completely misleading.

He promotes himself as an expert just like many other "experts" in the field of lucid dreaming. His "qualifications, history, and clear experience"
come from his own declaration. This entire topic of lucid dreaming is based on the trust system. When one of the lucid dreamers in this forum claim to have had an experience, we believe it. Nicholas claims to have had thousands of Lucid dreams as do a few people on these forums as well.. I believe he does because he seems to have an "inside" understanding of lucid dreaming as someone with history of doing so would. As for having watched his videos and claiming that no one should trust anything he says? This is creating misinformation itself. It is obvious that the methods did not work for the original poster or he didn't try them. However, as I have said many times now, many of these methods work for me with an accuracy rate that is even surprising to me. So if "newbies" were to follow the advise of this now absent poster, they would be possibly screwing themselves out of many many lucid experiences, or at least a later start than what may have been possible.

Also bear in mind that his ultimate goal is to convince you of his expertise so that you will then part with your cash for stage 2 of the course. Opinion of someone who failed using these techniques and quite possibly failed as a lucid dreamer but still opinion.

He uses an array of marketing and advertising tricks to try to fool you. He firstly, has created his own language for lucid dreaming. Including methods, terminology and buzz words. He's basically trying to reinvent the wheel, so he can then claim he invented the wheel and sell it to you. What right has he to invade the subject of lucid dreaming, call himself an expert, and then confuse and mislead people by creating new terminology for methods and terms that are embeded in the culture of lucid dreaming?


Marketing and advertising tricks to fool you? Hmm, He adds an intentional advertisement at the end of each video to sell his second series. That is marketing, not a marketing trick, and it isnt fooling anyone. Its obvious. Created his own buzzwords, methods, and terminology? Strange, many of us on the forum seem to do this daily. We create new words to explain things we don't understand, create new methods that sometimes work great and sometimes fail. We also create new terminology for methods that we are testing in many times that there is nothing already existing that explains it in the way we feel suitable. Didn't Stephen Laberge create new terminology and aren't we all creating new terminology every day? Thats a great reason to chastise this guy. What claim is he making for being the creator of lucid dreaming? He isn't, in fact, he mentions reading many books by others on lucid dreaming so obviously he didn't create it.....



Secondly, he trys to blind you with "science". I put science in quotation marks, because it is far from science. It reminds me of infomercials, and shampoo adverts where they say "here comes the science bit", then show you a load of meaningless graphs and numbers, all that make no sense, just to confuse you into thinking they know what they are talking about.
He DOSN'T know what he is talking about.


"Trys to Blind you with science"? Trys haha, Then blabs about shampoo commercials.
Ok, the same "science" he discusses in the videos are the same "science" stephen laberge talks about on a regular basis. Most of the "science" from the lucidology series is also the same science that was proven by Stephen Laberge.


Let me take an example:
In his STOP DROP AND ROLL video A ten minute long video, that can basically be summed up in one sentence: "if you're trying to have a wild, don't move too much" But here are the huge flaws in his theory: He claims something called Mind Body Independence saying: mind body independence. The mind never knows precisely what the body is doing and vice versa. He then trys to prove this by stating that hair grows on your body, and your mind dosn't know about it, or that digestive systems work without the mind being aware of it. Kind of vaguely true on the surface, but he takes these and other similar points, then draws the conclusion that: The body will test to see if the mind is asleep by sending (here comes his own terminology) roll over signals. A roll over signal apparently is any urge to move, or any pain in the body, when trying to go to sleep. These are "test signals" being sent by the body, to test if the brain is asleep (rather than just maybe, being uncomfortable.)
What he fails to address is: WHERE IS THIS DECISION BEING MADE?
Which part of the body, independent from the brain chooses to send a signal to test the brain? The spleen? the testicles? the heart? Also he fails to recognise that the mind and body are NOT INDEPENDENT there are a complete system in constant communication via the NERVOUS SYSTEM. He also fails to recognise that Sleep Paralysis (which he claims is a choice made by the body when it thinks the mind is asleep) is actually as far as science knows, controlled from within the brain pons region of the brain.



Ok, first of all in the stop drop and roll series he explains a communication theory he has about how to tell the body you are ready to sleep. Its hypothetical and he even explains that is it something he discovered that worked for him, but its still hypothetical. Secondly in the stop drop and roll series he talks about Mind/body independence. He says that the body is always doing things separately form the mind. This is true. The brain does not send constant signals to each cell and tell it to reproduce or to each hair follicle and tell it to grow hair. There is a separation in what the mind controls and what the body controls that science recognizes. Science doesn't account for what causes sleep paralysis directly but they believe sleep paralysis is closely related to REM Atoniaia. So we can't say whether Nicholas Newport is correct or not about sleep paralysis but the fact is that we can't say for certain either way. His opinions of laying perfectly still are echoed here throughout dreamviews again and again. So we all know this is important for bringing on sleep paralysis because it works. We all also know that when we seem to be getting very close to SP, itching/being very uncomfortable are also very common and we have to try to ignore it to continue. So these theories do in fact seem reliable. I don't personally believe he means that sleep paralysis is controlled by a thought process of the body, but it does seem that one part of the mind tests another part of the mind to test its state. We do know that many parts of the mind are independent from one another so this is possible. So it would be possible that one part of the mind may send test signals to the body to see if another part of the mind would respond, thus meaning it is not sleeping. But this is hypothetical as well. He sarcastically mentions that maybe we are just uncomfortable and need to move? It seems that no matter how comfortable we position ourselves we still get these urges to move.. so where do they come from and for what purpose? It is unknown.. so this theory also is sensible, although still theory.


There are endless contradictions to science, the science of lucidity, basic biology etc. etc. etc. throughout his videos. More opinion without evidence

If i had the time, I would like to break down each of his videos and point out the flaws and misinformation in them. Unfortunatly I do not have the time.
May I suggest it possibly a DreamViews project, that intelligent memebers of the forum, help educate the new members to the misinformation in these videos?
This is what my thread is for, and what my thread is currently in the process of for those of you following it. I am breaking down the misinformation in THESE videos.

Anyhow, just a warning.
Don't believe everything you seen on YouTube.
Be extra wary when someone is trying to sell you something, and trying to blind you with made up science and lots of graphs, that if you take the time to look at, actually MAKE NO SENSE.
Lucidolgy.com may not be exactly a scam in the classic sense of the word.
But it is certainly hugely misleading, misinformation and bad for the subject of lucid dreaming. Its close enough to a scam for my tastes.
Be warned.


Don't believe everything you see on YouTube. Thanks, I'm pretty sure that part is common sense. The graphs on lucidology actually make A LOT of sense.. for instance how he shows hovering on the wake/asleep threshold makes it much more likely to lucid dream.. Yes, this is true and we know this, hence many methods to induce lucid dreaming use this. Wake back to bed, and many more. So this part is completely incorrect. "it is certainly hugely misleading, misinformation and bad for the subject of lucid dreaming. Its close enough to a scam for my tastes."More opinion and completely incorrect in my experience as well as many others experience.

So there we have it. And thank god its over, but I have just proven that exact original post of misinformation is in fact very mis-informative . Why does it even exists here in the first place? Thankfully he even suggested that someone create a new topic and truly break down Lucidology and the methods. Ahem... So he actually gave support to exactly what I am doing? That's interesting. For those of you who would like to continue a real discussion on lucidology and its methods.. including the accuracies and likelihood of them working (good or bad) feel free to continue at my thread below. Otherwise I'm really done wasting time on this thread. Thanks for reading everyone as this post took me 2 hours to write.. I hope it cleared a few things up.

I'm seriously only doing this because I want to help people. I even mentioned you can watch the "paid" series if you don't have a way to contribute to the author if you must, but I can't link it. All this information is available for free. Just because the guy tries to sell his "advanced" methods doesn't mean they aren't worthwhile. Stephen Laberge sells his information but I've never bought a Stephen Laberge book even though I've read them. Try not to be too defensive here. I'm just pointing out the obvious.

http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucido...e-here-109585/

I'm actually laughing as I now go through all the post of SPACEEXPLORER. (the original poster) The guy is an idiot and he attacks every topic he joins or starts topics attacking everything. He started a topic attacking shared dreaming. He joined a topic and attacked Dannon. This guy was a waste of a Dreamviews username, let alone all the space he wasted attacking topics and creating new ones.. I gotta say, im really enjoying following this idiot. Now i think its time to delete this entire thread. Obivoulsy this guy was a loser running around attacking random subjects he personally didn't agree with. ANYONE can just look through his archive of post. Thanks again


Now, can we please continue this topic here

http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucido...e-here-109585/

Originally Posted by atkins513

I'm actually laughing as I now go through all the post of SPACEEXPLORER. (the original poster) The guy is an idiot and he attacks every topic he joins or starts topics attacking everything. He started a topic attacking shared dreaming. He joined a topic and attacked Dannon. This guy was a waste of a Dreamviews username, let alone all the space he wasted attacking topics and creating new ones.. I gotta say, im really enjoying following this idiot. Now i think its time to delete this entire thread. Obivoulsy this guy was a loser running around attacking random subjects he personally didn't agree with. ANYONE can just look through his archive of post. Thanks again


Now, can we please continue this topic here

http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucido...e-here-109585/

Here Atkins, this is for you
Don't take it all so personally.

Originally Posted by atkins513

I'm sure that if there were question about which one of these threads to delete my thread would probably still remain considering the original poster hasnt been on the site in over 13 months and now brings nothing to the community. I really do appreciate being part of this community and helping to develop it even though some of the contradictions here annoy me. For instance, someone makes a informative video series and gives away the entire first series yet sells the second series. His name is chastised and his methods attacked. Another man sells books, camp events, and continues to this day but he is a god in many of your eyes. Even though you claim that lucid dreaming should be free (which I agree 100 percent) but never seem to have a problem with Stephen Laberge selling everywhere yet people keep referencing him as a master.

This is my last post in this thread if I can manage to keep myself away from it .I am tired of having to explain its obvious ridiculousness. Even if you don't like Nicholas Newport. Even if his methods do not work for you personally. They do work. Not only do his methods work for many people but they are also free.. Yes they work and they are free. When I was a newbie myself I had my first Lucid Dream using his timer method in correlation with this Sleep Paralysis methods. Since then at least 60 percent of my lucidness can be attributed to the methods of lucidology. Many of those methods such as the "translucent eyelids effect" I have never seen discussed here unless they were in relation to someone asking questions about lucidology. The "translucent eyelids effect" is the very first indicator in realizing I am dreaming in many cases. Most of the other methods he speaks of (that i also haven't seen here) work just as well and I use them regularly depending on the induction.

Newbies ALMOST always come across the lucidology series in the beginning so It would be wise that we discuss it here in an unbiased fashion. If you fellow seasoned lucid dreamers and moderators want to help newbies as much as I do, then it seems you would want them to have all weapons available in their arsenal as opposed to deterring them away from methods that do work for many many people.

One other point about the lucidology series. The entire first 12 videos of the series are presented completely free even though they do advertise. I did purchase the 2nd video course a long while ago but later ended up finding it somewhere and downloading it on the internet so not only is it very informative but its also pretty easy to continue the second course for free if you can't afford it.

Onto the mis-information of this thread.
----------------------------
ORIGINAL POST WITH CORRECTIONS BELOW


Hi Everyone.
I just wanted to put a warning out there for newbie lucid dreamers, and those of you who have perhaps come across the work of Nicholas Newport aka Lucidology.com or luciddreamtricks (on youtube). It would seem that what we have here is an individual who is looking to promote themselves as an "expert" in the field of lucid dreaming to earn a quick buck, However, it's important to note that Mr Newport, has no qualifications, history or any clear experience to justify his choosing to call himself an expert. It does get worse though, having watched all his videos, I would warn any newbie lucid dreamer, to IGNORE his suggestions. You will be wasting your time. Most if not all the information is incorrect at best. At worst it is completely misleading.

He promotes himself as an expert just like many other "experts" in the field of lucid dreaming. His "qualifications, history, and clear experience"
come from his own declaration. This entire topic of lucid dreaming is based on the trust system. When one of the lucid dreamers in this forum claim to have had an experience, we believe it. Nicholas claims to have had thousands of Lucid dreams as do a few people on these forums as well.. I believe he does because he seems to have an "inside" understanding of lucid dreaming as someone with history of doing so would. As for having watched his videos and claiming that no one should trust anything he says? This is creating misinformation itself. It is obvious that the methods did not work for the original poster or he didn't try them. However, as I have said many times now, many of these methods work for me with an accuracy rate that is even surprising to me. So if "newbies" were to follow the advise of this now absent poster, they would be possibly screwing themselves out of many many lucid experiences, or at least a later start than what may have been possible.

Also bear in mind that his ultimate goal is to convince you of his expertise so that you will then part with your cash for stage 2 of the course. Opinion of someone who failed using these techniques and quite possibly failed as a lucid dreamer but still opinion.

He uses an array of marketing and advertising tricks to try to fool you. He firstly, has created his own language for lucid dreaming. Including methods, terminology and buzz words. He's basically trying to reinvent the wheel, so he can then claim he invented the wheel and sell it to you. What right has he to invade the subject of lucid dreaming, call himself an expert, and then confuse and mislead people by creating new terminology for methods and terms that are embeded in the culture of lucid dreaming?


Marketing and advertising tricks to fool you? Hmm, He adds an intentional advertisement at the end of each video to sell his second series. That is marketing, not a marketing trick, and it isnt fooling anyone. Its obvious. Created his own buzzwords, methods, and terminology? Strange, many of us on the forum seem to do this daily. We create new words to explain things we don't understand, create new methods that sometimes work great and sometimes fail. We also create new terminology for methods that we are testing in many times that there is nothing already existing that explains it in the way we feel suitable. Didn't Stephen Laberge create new terminology and aren't we all creating new terminology every day? Thats a great reason to chastise this guy. What claim is he making for being the creator of lucid dreaming? He isn't, in fact, he mentions reading many books by others on lucid dreaming so obviously he didn't create it.....



Secondly, he trys to blind you with "science". I put science in quotation marks, because it is far from science. It reminds me of infomercials, and shampoo adverts where they say "here comes the science bit", then show you a load of meaningless graphs and numbers, all that make no sense, just to confuse you into thinking they know what they are talking about.
He DOSN'T know what he is talking about.


"Trys to Blind you with science"? Trys haha, Then blabs about shampoo commercials.
Ok, the same "science" he discusses in the videos are the same "science" stephen laberge talks about on a regular basis. Most of the "science" from the lucidology series is also the same science that was proven by Stephen Laberge.


Let me take an example:
In his STOP DROP AND ROLL video A ten minute long video, that can basically be summed up in one sentence: "if you're trying to have a wild, don't move too much" But here are the huge flaws in his theory: He claims something called Mind Body Independence saying: mind body independence. The mind never knows precisely what the body is doing and vice versa. He then trys to prove this by stating that hair grows on your body, and your mind dosn't know about it, or that digestive systems work without the mind being aware of it. Kind of vaguely true on the surface, but he takes these and other similar points, then draws the conclusion that: The body will test to see if the mind is asleep by sending (here comes his own terminology) roll over signals. A roll over signal apparently is any urge to move, or any pain in the body, when trying to go to sleep. These are "test signals" being sent by the body, to test if the brain is asleep (rather than just maybe, being uncomfortable.)
What he fails to address is: WHERE IS THIS DECISION BEING MADE?
Which part of the body, independent from the brain chooses to send a signal to test the brain? The spleen? the testicles? the heart? Also he fails to recognise that the mind and body are NOT INDEPENDENT there are a complete system in constant communication via the NERVOUS SYSTEM. He also fails to recognise that Sleep Paralysis (which he claims is a choice made by the body when it thinks the mind is asleep) is actually as far as science knows, controlled from within the brain pons region of the brain.



Ok, first of all in the stop drop and roll series he explains a communication theory he has about how to tell the body you are ready to sleep. Its hypothetical and he even explains that is it something he discovered that worked for him, but its still hypothetical. Secondly in the stop drop and roll series he talks about Mind/body independence. He says that the body is always doing things separately form the mind. This is true. The brain does not send constant signals to each cell and tell it to reproduce or to each hair follicle and tell it to grow hair. There is a separation in what the mind controls and what the body controls that science recognizes. Science doesn't account for what causes sleep paralysis directly but they believe sleep paralysis is closely related to REM Atoniaia. So we can't say whether Nicholas Newport is correct or not about sleep paralysis but the fact is that we can't say for certain either way. His opinions of laying perfectly still are echoed here throughout dreamviews again and again. So we all know this is important for bringing on sleep paralysis because it works. We all also know that when we seem to be getting very close to SP, itching/being very uncomfortable are also very common and we have to try to ignore it to continue. So these theories do in fact seem reliable. I don't personally believe he means that sleep paralysis is controlled by a thought process of the body, but it does seem that one part of the mind tests another part of the mind to test its state. We do know that many parts of the mind are independent from one another so this is possible. So it would be possible that one part of the mind may send test signals to the body to see if another part of the mind would respond, thus meaning it is not sleeping. But this is hypothetical as well. He sarcastically mentions that maybe we are just uncomfortable and need to move? It seems that no matter how comfortable we position ourselves we still get these urges to move.. so where do they come from and for what purpose? It is unknown.. so this theory also is sensible, although still theory.


There are endless contradictions to science, the science of lucidity, basic biology etc. etc. etc. throughout his videos. More opinion without evidence

If i had the time, I would like to break down each of his videos and point out the flaws and misinformation in them. Unfortunatly I do not have the time.
May I suggest it possibly a DreamViews project, that intelligent memebers of the forum, help educate the new members to the misinformation in these videos?
This is what my thread is for, and what my thread is currently in the process of for those of you following it. I am breaking down the misinformation in THESE videos.

Anyhow, just a warning.
Don't believe everything you seen on YouTube.
Be extra wary when someone is trying to sell you something, and trying to blind you with made up science and lots of graphs, that if you take the time to look at, actually MAKE NO SENSE.
Lucidolgy.com may not be exactly a scam in the classic sense of the word.
But it is certainly hugely misleading, misinformation and bad for the subject of lucid dreaming. Its close enough to a scam for my tastes.
Be warned.


Don't believe everything you see on YouTube. Thanks, I'm pretty sure that part is common sense. The graphs on lucidology actually make A LOT of sense.. for instance how he shows hovering on the wake/asleep threshold makes it much more likely to lucid dream.. Yes, this is true and we know this, hence many methods to induce lucid dreaming use this. Wake back to bed, and many more. So this part is completely incorrect. "it is certainly hugely misleading, misinformation and bad for the subject of lucid dreaming. Its close enough to a scam for my tastes."More opinion and completely incorrect in my experience as well as many others experience.

So there we have it. And thank god its over, but I have just proven that exact original post of misinformation is in fact very mis-informative . Why does it even exists here in the first place? Thankfully he even suggested that someone create a new topic and truly break down Lucidology and the methods. Ahem... So he actually gave support to exactly what I am doing? That's interesting. For those of you who would like to continue a real discussion on lucidology and its methods.. including the accuracies and likelihood of them working (good or bad) feel free to continue at my thread below. Otherwise I'm really done wasting time on this thread. Thanks for reading everyone as this post took me 2 hours to write.. I hope it cleared a few things up.

I'm seriously only doing this because I want to help people. I even mentioned you can watch the "paid" series if you don't have a way to contribute to the author if you must, but I can't link it. All this information is available for free. Just because the guy tries to sell his "advanced" methods doesn't mean they aren't worthwhile. Stephen Laberge sells his information but I've never bought a Stephen Laberge book even though I've read them. Try not to be too defensive here. I'm just pointing out the obvious.

http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucido...e-here-109585/

Originally Posted by atkins513

I'm actually laughing as I now go through all the post of SPACEEXPLORER. (the original poster) The guy is an idiot and he attacks every topic he joins or starts topics attacking everything. He started a topic attacking shared dreaming. He joined a topic and attacked Dannon. This guy was a waste of a Dreamviews username, let alone all the space he wasted attacking topics and creating new ones.. I gotta say, im really enjoying following this idiot. Now i think its time to delete this entire thread. Obivoulsy this guy was a loser running around attacking random subjects he personally didn't agree with. ANYONE can just look through his archive of post. Thanks again


Now, can we please continue this topic here

http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucido...e-here-109585/

Haha. Thanks for the Chill Pill 25,000 mg is a lot though, im afraid I might overdose lol

dear Mcwillis, what i don't like about Nicholas Newport is that he says all other people can't do the methods efficiently or good enough. Plus Stephen la berge just has a book that i can get for like $5 i don't have to keep paying for a freaking course or anything. i just buy the book, follow the instructions and BAM lucid dreams. he doesn't try to sell me other shit in there he just says do this and find out what works for you. seriously i'm not paying for some bullshit course from some guy who doesn't even have a degree in this stuff. i would rather buy EWLD from a guy that actually proved lucid dreaming to be possible. he has no disrespect for other scientist in fact la berge wrote EWLD with another scientist. Plus la berge doesn't put a bunch of bullshit graphs in his books that have no meaning he just puts valuable info in the book and ways to have lucid dreams. he urge you to subscribe to a course or anything

look i'm not saying Nicholas Newports methods don't work, its what he says that pisses me off, he says everyone else can't do it fast and that he knows it all.

that is what i am getting at

You guys keep mentioning graphs that make no sense. All of the graphs make sense.
I know I cannot be the only intelligent person here. The graphs make sense.

Not to mention that no one seems to disagree with everything I have written right above breaking down the original post. So if no one disagrees lets delete this thread. Also, no one seems to disagree that the original poster went from post to post attacking people. He was obviously a useless member. In order to see this, just look at his posts.

What if some of us prefer to continue the topic here? What are you gonna do about it?

You are allowed to have your opinions. Let the rest of us have ours. You're obviously obsessed with this guy and his videos to take it so personally when someone mentions that they do not like him. And you jump all over them. Well NEWS FLASH! Maybe some people really think this guy is full of shit and his methods are crap. If that's how they feel, who the hell are you to tell them they are wrong!? It's THEIR opinion. Not everyone prefers to learn things the same way as you. Perhaps you just have an affinity to Nick. Maybe you're a lot like him in some ways, so you feel the need to defend him so much. Whatever the reason, it honestly makes me dislike the whole Lucidology thing even more. It's as if you're trying to tell people that they need to like it, and if they don't, they must be doing something wrong. This is quite simply, beyond arrogance...and I can honestly say, you aren't doing Nick any favors acting that way.

(now you're trying to get the thread deleted? lmao...there is no way this thread would be deleted)