What is a thought form?

[Cheysdreamer]

What the title says. Plus, how do I tell if it's another dreamer vs that? Maybe the definition will help me figure that out.

[shadowofwind]

I think that the short answer is that anything you see in a lucid dream is at most going to be a thought-form. You can't actually see another dreamer, what would you see? What does someone's mind look like? What you see would be a thought-form that is in or related to their mind somehow, or represents something of what you feel of them. So then the question would be if that form is related to your thought of them, or perhaps created by them during the dream, or if its the astral form of the much more substantial thought that manifests as their physical body, if there is such a thing. I doubt that in the overwhelming majority of lucid and shared dream experiences it can be the latter. I also doubt this distinction between different kinds of thought-forms can make much sense without more background information though, so here's some further discussion, even though this will probably be way more of an answer than you want.... Some people think that physical objects and events are manifestations of thoughts. So, for instance, a physical mosquito would be the result of a greedy, parasitic kind of thought, and the desire in that thought would animate the mosquito. This precipitation of thought into matter is assumed to happen subconsciously and somewhat automatically, and where there are any details that need coordinated or worked out intelligently, there would be gods or fates that handle that. In some ideas about this, there are multiple higher 'planes' or finer states of matter that a thought descends through when it manifests. There could be, for example, a plane having to do with identity, and below that a plane having more to do with motive or reason, and below that a plane having more to do with form. The ideas are originally derived from ancient Greek, Vedic, and Tibetan texts, but they got reworked by westerners in the late 19th and early 20th century. In the variations I am familiar with, there are several levels of planes and sub-planes, organized sort of recursively according to the zodiac. Adepts or master mystics were said to be able to cause thoughts to manifest immediately and consciously. So the physical things or beings they create in that manner would be called thought-forms. That might be the first use of the word. However, the lowest plane about the physical plane would be the astral or etheric plane. So if you could see a manifesting thought there, before it becomes a physical object or event, you could call that a thought-form also. I think this is the most common use of the word. Some people think that the 'dream plane' is synonymous or nearly synonymous with the 'astral plane'. If all this theory about planes is true, then a person's physical body also ought to have an astral counterpart that connects their physical body to deeper aspects of their spirit like their will and identity. And that 'astral body' could in theory be distinguished from a form related to a lesser manifesting thought. I don't know though if anyone has tried to account for the difference between the 'astral' and 'dream' experiences within this framework. One would think that someone would have, but I think that if you become familiar enough with these theories, and look at them critically, eventually you can start seeing pretty big holes in them that haven't been addressed. If the dream plane is the astral plane, can you see someone's astral body in a dream? And what is the correspondence between the dream plane and the realm that is experienced during astral projection, which closely mirrors the physical world? We could suppose that one of these is actually a higher level in the scheme of things. For instance the dream plane could be closer to the physical plane, and the astral plane closer to the spirit, which accounts for the more spirit-like quality of the astral experience. But if that's the case, why does the 'dream plane' experience adhere so much less closely to the shape of the physical world? Plus, its pretty clear to me that what we call the dream plane is actually the same imaginative space that we use to represent the physical world to ourselves when we're awake, except that when we're awake the senses are driving it instead of our mind. So that would make everything we experience when awake an astral representation of the physical world, even though people don't think about it that way. But the out-of-body 'astral' experience is different from that, it commonly has a lot of other more spooky stuff projected into it also. Based on what I understand, I'm quite sure that the people who put together all these ideas about higher planes are mostly making stuff up, that their theory of manifesting thoughts doesn't work. They were generally fairly ignorant about modern science, and there's a huge disconnect between their ideas and what is actually known about the physical world. Their model seems to me to be a toy, ridiculously inadequate. So its tempting just to say that its all fantasy. Except, there does in many people's experience seem to be something like karma. And things similar to spirits or angels or fates or demons. We have personal evidence of this, and presumably it all has to work somehow. So it seems like something in all of these ideas about higher planes must be true, even though its hard to say what. I've been puzzling on this question my whole life, almost as an obsession. I guess my best guess is I think the whole idea of hierarchies of planes of finer matter is wrong, and it works some other way. But I don't know what that some other way is. Tentatively, I doubt that physical objects and events are manifestations of human thoughts, even though they're clearly related somehow. There's too much logic built into the physical world that's not directly constrained by ideas or desires. So I'm guessing that the physical body doesn't have its own permanent astral-form, except one that you create temporarily when you're trying to think about it. As an experienced guess, also I'd say that the 'dream plane' doesn't have any spatially direct correspondence to the physical world, and we call it the dream plane or the astral plane or the waking life visual field or whatever depending on what we're using our imagination to represent at the moment. So what something that you see in a dream 'is' really depends on what you're imagining about. So all you can do is try to feel what's behind the image, what you're representing to yourself in your dream when you form that image with your mind. Or what someone else is representing to you by pushing that image into your mind. Your capacity to feel seems to me to be the most essential tool here, along with your ability to reason about what you feel. I hope that makes at least a little sense.

[Psionik]

I don't know, whether we have to differ things existing in physical dimension from things existing in astral or other dimensions. I feel that there is little to no difference. From my experience things existing here and there loosely independently. Things can start to exist in higher dimension later, but also sooner than in physical dimension. Usually they also stay existent in higher dimension longer time period after they were destroyed here in physical dimension. Damaging things in astral dimension also doesn't lead automatically to its damage in physical dimension... Physical dimension is rigid, bonded with many laws, astral is more lose... there are maybe laws... But I didn't found other than that, that everything depends on my level of concentration, and fixing myself to laws existent in physical dimension ( I take limitations which are not existent there, but I create them around myself...) Therefore much broader and less visible limits are not visible... I hope that this is written clearly enough I also observed, that the higher dimension(from lower to higher astral, and to mental dimension) the less things from physical manifest there. In budhic dimension there were not things, only souls hovering and slowly drifting in endless space full of love. Of course, I may be wrong. Everything can depend on individual perspective of view.

[Cheysdreamer]

I'm possibly more novice at the actual dreaming experience than I'd like to think. On a knowledge base level, I am, I only started really looking into this about a month ago. However, as for different planes, speaking loosely, into the dream side as I have yet to know what may be like in waking life and its all too new to me so I'd rather leave it to when I fall asleep or meditate for now, anyway, from personal experience there seems to be 3-4 "layers" in which I've been able to enter. One being, typical "dream", as in watching it like a movie and everything happening around you. I usually can only remember fragments of these, but what I do its usually a distant feeling, fuzzy perhaps, does not feel "real" to me and I can also show up as looking different than I do in waking life. "Layer" two, for me is still it being like a movie but its more vivid and I'm aware (lucid) that I'm dreaming and here as well I can be "someone else". Here I more go along with what is going on in my little head of imagination. There are DC's that may interact with me but I seldom speak. I can remember these quite well. "Layer" 3, only difference is I am now interacting with DC's and "controlling" some outcomes or what I do more, I am me with the possibly of animal transformation. "Layer" 4, I've had on and off throughout my life and recently more often. This I enter into a space that is different than what I'd call the dream plane as everything feels real. Being touched, I can feel, pain that I only feel in waking life hurts, very vivid, very real, however I am still aware that I am not awake. The only "character" that appears feels like another human. I hear a heartbeat, warmth of his skin, and emotion in his eyes. In this layer, I am me, solid form of me, no transformation. Now I'm not sure if this is somewhat what you are getting at in terms of the "planes" and having to do with thought manifestation? Maybe I am misinterpreting what you are saying, knowing me I can do that quite easily. Could simply be a lack of vocabulary as for the dream category. On your suggestion of simply "seeing through" to what is really there.... layer 1 for me would be rather difficult but these are rare for me 99.9% of my dreams are some level of lucid. I seem to travel between 2-3 quite easily but these to me are not real though they may look it, I am aware that it is of my own manifestations presenting themselves in a way that my imagination allows. Now layer 4 is where I'd ask... how do I "see through" here. It all feels real, much like waking life and I lack the ability to control outcomes, the only character here feels as independent from me as you do. Own thoughts, feelings, imagination, and being. Am I to assume that since I show up as me... physically, mentally, and emotionally.... that this guy also does? Or can I so opt to see through him? I choose to enter this layer 4. Not always on purpose but I myself walk through the door into it. Its a clarity difference. Ok, so maybe I'm off track here, but this is what came to mind reading both of your replies.

[Psionik]

I don't see layers in dreams... well they can be more or less chaotic... 1. normal dreams- I'm not aware that I'm dreaming. Reality checks don't function by me. For me even fantastic things are real even if I question reality. Turning normal dream to lucid one is sporadic for me, it goes through something like flash of true, that dream is a dream. And not real world... I'm in astral, surronded by fantasy and not knowing that that is a fantasy. 2. lucid dream... for me created through wake induced dreaming(through imagination)... But that is quite difficult because of my training of OBE(I'm automatically shutting down imagination, even if I consciously try to imagine things). One knows that he/she dreams. He/she is in astral but surrounded in fantasy. Recognizes fantasy and knows it is a fantasy, not reality. 3. projection(OBE) to higher dimensions- goes without imagination... but through concentration and feeling... feeling of spiritual body. I don't know whether it needs to be astral body, mental body and others... it is for me second body. It permeates physical body... in times of separation I feel it like glove... bigger than physical body... While I'm projecting, I know, that what I perceive is a real thing. It is for me more real than physical reality. Now, I feel the astral dimension has many levels... it certainly explains difficulties with communication with other peoples or entities. I think, when I'm not tuned to the same or nearly same level of astral dimension, I can't comprehend reality of other entities. Therefore peoples and entities feels demented... more or less. (probably depending on how far we are apart in level...) Tuning inside one dimension is for me very difficult... Tunning from astral to mental dimension is something I can't do. Not yet. I can go(project) to mental dimension, and stay there... But can't descend to astral. Or from astral to mental. Differences between dimension are differences between mind states. I learned how to stay in mind state I reached, but not how to change it... Maybe because of observer state I'm much too passive. There is no will to do other things than observation and exploration. I remember, as I once found a friend in astral and tried to tune her to my level of consciousness... I transferred great amounts of energy(it looked like electrical bolts flashing around our hands as I held hers... But I wasn't successful. Well she was dreaming, but dreams are in astral dimension. Only one doesn't see through his/her imagination. Those are things I believe through my experiences as true. But they don't need to be true, please take that in your mind

[shadowofwind]

Cheysdreamer and Psionik, I think a major challenge when exploring this sort of thing is the extent to which other people's thoughts about it define our own experience. Hundreds of thousands of people in America and Europe have believed in these planes and put their thought into building that kind of interpretation, along with however many millions of people in India and China and elsewhere think in a similar way. Its like what floatinghead said about when he tried to go to the moon, and it had characteristics that were consistent with WakingNomad's moon, but then when he changed his thinking a bit he was able to go to a different moon that didn't have those characteristics. Of those hundreds of thousands or millions of people who think of such things, most of them are largely unaware of the extent to which our thoughts affect these experiences at a meta-level. Of course they understand that our thoughts and characters affect how we interpret things and what we encounter on a personal scale, that's a core part of their teaching. But they assume the planes are objectively real, they don't even ask the question. So if you want to understand and you ask the question, you're going against all that thinking. Like Psionik I don't know the truth on this matter though, I'm just describing my own experience and perspective. The divisions of planes follows the pattern of the zodiac. There are several competing models, but in one the truth/light/noetic/identity/fire sphere/world/plane corresponds to the horizontal line between capricorn and cancer, which divides the manifest from the unmanifest. The line through Sagittarius is the next level down, corresponding to reason/life/mental/thought/air. Next line below that is desire/form/emotion/feeling/water. Bottom at libra is physical/manifest/sensation/body/earth. I'm pretty sure this scheme is at least partially contrived, it has a few problems, and I can come up with other schemes such as using 8 points instead of 12 that show other equally valid relationships. But the 12 point scheme works remarkably well because of the symmetries built into it. My point here is that the experience of the different planes, such as with mental being above astral, follows the pattern of the zodiac, and I'm pretty sure that the zodiac is an invention that's less fundamental than how nature actually works. At most, its sort of like a convention, like which side of the road cars drive on. It falls into natural patterns according to natural principles, but other patterns are possible under other choices and conditions. If I were you, Cheysdreamer, I would attempt to interpret that man you experience as the suppressed masculine side of yourself. In that interpretation, your experience of it is almost literally and incubus or projected tulpa or thought-form. I've read that these can get jealous and dangerous if you feed them for long enough, though maybe the difficulty is overblown. I suggest trying to feel your own power, as masculine desire, and exercise your reason, and don't objectify it as much as a physical presence. To whatever extent the experience is of an actual man I don't think its healthy to cultivate that, for somewhat the same reason that the objectified animus can get out of control. I guess everyone experiences these things though, so in that sense its not that big of a deal. I think one reason you can't "control" stuff at the highest level you experience, is that the thought-forms at that level are more collective, in much the same way the physical world is collective and your own attitudes don't determine what objects are. The 'I' you have at that level is also higher, more like your higher self. Some people try to realize themselves as a god or universal self that way. My approach is to back off, maintaining my more personal perspective, while letting the higher self interact with me more as a kindred spirit. I don't think its natural for my more personal self to try to assume that role. And I don't think that focusing on the unity of both selves at the total exclusion of the differences is good or honest, because I think there are real inherent distinctions or divisions also, even though they're somewhat vaguely and fluidly defined. I do empathetically share the perspective of the 'higher' self though, and have dreams and experiences more from that perspective. From that standpoint, you can change stuff at that higher level, within limitations imposed by karma, so to speak. But from that standpoint you're not really you any more, your sort of pretending to be a god or fate, and its letting you share the experience. I don't know how much sense that made, I've got to leave for an appointment. My hope was to give you a tool for dealing with the experience at the highest level in a more psychological self-discovering kind of way. Being able to shift your experience of 'I' to something more spiritual helps with that, as does thinking about the things you encounter from a first person perspective, from the inside as feeling or identity, instead of or in addition to objectifying them. From there you can relate them to other aspects of your mind and personality, and expand, heal, and strengthen yourself that way. Find out what you're hiding from yourself, etc. I assume you can already do these things to a fair extent or you wouldn't even be having these experiences, but I hope that pointing it out in this way might give a little push. Best wishes.