Thread: Shared Dreaming Debate

How about technology? And if you were actually working in that building and know a fair degree of things there, i thought you guys weren't suppose to talk about it, let alone bring it up? It suppose to be secret right?

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Having recently held and above top secret clearance, and having worked in a building supposedly containing alien artifacts (from what I see on the internet), I say with a fair degree of confidence that secret government agencies don't know anything about this sort of thing. Its not at all glamorous like how Hollywood portrays such things. It would be like expecting the guys at the Department of Motor Vehicles to have superhuman powers. Some agencies like the CIA add a homicidal element to the mix, but aside from that its same ass-covering careerism that you'd find in any complacent, aging corporation.

I agree the post you were responding to was idiotic though. If you roll down your window when you're driving, and pay attention, you can hear the sound of your car engine and tire noise bouncing off of objects you pass, and can get some sense of what's near the road that way. But using exactly the same argument, the continued utility of eyes proves that this form of sonar doesn't exist.

In theory I shouldn't mention my clearance level, though in actuality 'above top secret' doesn't mean much, and is glamorous only in movies. I'm not exposing any state secrets to say the alien and paranormal ops stories are made up, and don't fit into that world as it actually is.

Government research is not currently at the forefront of technology, it lags behind a little. In that respect what is shown on TV dramas isn't real either.

Am I the only one who thinks that this thread is really a very good one? It has lots of great discussions, different points of view, and nice suggestions.

Originally Posted by zombiesarebad

if shared dreaming were shown to exist, the implications would be huge. It would mean that there are channels through which information/energy can flow that we don't yet know about. I've seen comments here that no scientist would stake his reputation on studying such a thing, but if you looked into it you'd find that this sort of thing has had the shit studied out of it. So far, there is no real evidence in support of it. And it seems (to me) that if it existed it would have been proven by now. Kind of like ghosts, bigfoot... whatever. If it's out there and you simply have to observe it under controlled conditions, it should have been done long ago.

You can say that two people can prove it between themselves, but that's called anecdotal evidence. For something to be scientifically proven it has to be repeated a number of times, recorded, and verified through outside sources. This has never been accomplished with shared dreaming or any similar phenomenon.

and the burden of proof lies on those making the claim, not the other way around.

Agreed...except for one thing...

If it existed, it would have been proven by now....Thats probably putting a little too much faith in mainstream science. There is as much politics in science as there is anywhere else. If the culture doesnt want to know something, it will remove those attempting to spread that knowledge. Case in point: Galileo. And dont think people have changed since the church threatened his life for thinking and speaking differently. They may not kill you now, but they will certainly tar and feather you metaphorically.

At any rate, even if there was serious study done, the conclusions would be speculative at best. Dreams vary so much from person to person that identifying shared information by scientific standards would be a horrendous task. Not that it cannot be done. Personally, I have a few ideas that could bring us closer to the truth of the topic and I hope to carry out those ideas throughout the coming years.
The first step is exactly what we are doing here. Talk about what we are experiencing and attempting to construct some basis for collective observation. woot.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

In theory I shouldn't mention my clearance level, though in actuality 'above top secret' doesn't mean much, and is glamorous only in movies. I'm not exposing any state secrets to say the alien and paranormal ops stories are made up, and don't fit into that world as it actually is.

Government research is not currently at the forefront of technology, it lags behind a little. In that respect what is shown on TV dramas isn't real either.

You have heard of DARPA right?

Yes i know it's not like in movies etc, i was just wondering what you can or can't unclose from your job.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

In theory I shouldn't mention my clearance level, though in actuality 'above top secret' doesn't mean much, and is glamorous only in movies. I'm not exposing any state secrets to say the alien and paranormal ops stories are made up, and don't fit into that world as it actually is.

Government research is not currently at the forefront of technology, it lags behind a little. In that respect what is shown on TV dramas isn't real either.

going to have to disagree that this sort of thing isn't studied. I'm only a Biology BA, so it's not like i'm rubbing elbows with Stephen Hawking or anything, but I have been around plenty of people involved in research and I can tell you that you will not be tarred and feathered (not even figuratively) for curiosity. As long as the scientific method is applied, it's looked at as legitimate in the eyes of many. You're probably not going to get a bajillion dollar grant to study shared dreaming, but it shouldn't take that. Compelling evidence for it, if it exists, should be pretty easily obtainable without tons of money or equipment.

I would be very interested to see some sponsored studies on shared dreaming. There is plenty of this being researched ya, but not in the mainstream like lucid dreaming or other sleep phenomena.

Originally Posted by zombiesarebad

going to have to disagree that this sort of thing isn't studied. I'm only a Biology BA, so it's not like i'm rubbing elbows with Stephen Hawkings or anything, but I have been around plenty of people involved in research and I can tell you that you will not be tarred and feathered (not even figuratively) for curiosity. As long as the scientific method is applied, it's looked at as legitimate in the eyes of many. You're probably not going to get a bajillion dollar grant to study shared dreaming, but it shouldn't take that. Compelling evidence for it, if it exists, should be pretty easily obtainable without tons of money or equipment.

I agree entirely. People are just making excuses to justify the fact that there is not one study which confirms shared dreaming.

All that's needed are experiences/talented shared dreamers (supposedly there are many on DV), equipment to monitor REM, and people who will assign signals/passwords, as well as monitor the equipment. All of this could be easily documented, and wouldn't cost alot of money. The only thing that's missing: shared dreamers who are willing to engage in this sort of experiment.

Falling asleep around the same time also shouldn't be much of a problem, seeing how 25 mg of "Doxylamine succinate" knocks you out like a baby.

Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

I would be very interested to see some sponsored studies on shared dreaming. There is plenty of this being researched ya, but not in the mainstream like lucid dreaming or other sleep phenomena.

why would it need to be sponsored? If two individuals were ever able to wake up and report the same (or strikingly similar) dream, isolated from each other in a controlled environment, financial backing would be easy to get. But nobody has ever been able to do that.

Originally Posted by Fechtel

The archangel is actually spelled Azrael.

But either way, I love your name because it sounds like Israel.

There are multiple spellings to that name, Azrael is the most commonly used and it was already taken.

Originally Posted by zombiesarebad

why would it need to be sponsored? If two individuals were ever able to wake up and report the same (or strikingly similar) dream, isolated from each other in a controlled environment, financial backing would be easy to get. But nobody has ever been able to do that.

Exactly right, and that's what I've been saying all along. If I had these shared dreaming abilities as many DV users claim they do, then I'd be the first in line, together with me fellow shared dreaming companion, to prove it.

And if someone offered me a huge amount of money for it like James Randi does, then that would give me much more motivation to do it.

Then we get the excuses, "I don't want to prove it, I don't need the money, etc."

Ok, i am going to give a challenge to all the disagreeing people here, because really you guys are not challenging us with proof to why you are disagreeing of shared dreaming. You tell us we need proof, now i tell you give us proof that an actual real scientist actually says "shared dreaming" is impossible, doesn't exist or is made up.
If none of you can give this proof from a true 100% legit scientific website in the end of today? Then it's best you be on your way back to your so called "religious" forums where you came from thank you!

Originally Posted by hathor28

Ok, i am going to give a challenge to all the disagreeing people here, because really you guys are not challenging us with proof to why you are disagreeing of shared dreaming. You tell us we need proof, now i tell you give us proof that an actual real scientist actually says "shared dreaming" is impossible, doesn't exist or is made up.
If none of you can give this proof from a true 100% legit scientific website in the end of today? Then it's best you be on your way back to your so called "religious" forums where you came from thank you!

This is ridiculous, and I'm disappointed that a very intelligent person like Sageous actually gave a "like" for your post.

Now I direct you both to a very good reply by zombiesarebad:

Originally Posted by zombiesarebad

You can say that two people can prove it between themselves, but that's called anecdotal evidence. For something to be scientifically proven it has to be repeated a number of times, recorded, and verified through outside sources. This has never been accomplished with shared dreaming or any similar phenomenon.

and the burden of proof lies on those making the claim, not the other way around.

On another note, you are once again falsely assuming that I am claiming shared dreams cannot exist. I have not once on this forum said this. I only said that there is no study that confirms it, which is true.

How many times do I need to repeat myself by saying I am not ruling out it's existence? It seems like this has become like a mantra I have to repeat over and over again in order for some people to "get it".

Originally Posted by Jakob

This is ridiculous, and I'm disappointed that a very intelligent person like Sageous actually gave a "like" for your post.

.... I knew you were going to notice my "like", and say that! I was going to "unlike" just because of that, but I figured what the hell.

Is it that ridiculous, really? Think about it. Yes, Hathor is effectively asking us to prove a negative, which is never a good thing, but I think her point is a good one.

There are thousands of attempted scientific "studies," from perpetual motion to phrenology to cold fusion, that were looked into by actual scientists and recorded in the books as impossible or, at best, unlikely (I still hold out hope for cold fusion). Given that the actual empirical study for dream-sharing is quite simple on paper, and that the idea of dream-sharing has been around as long as humans have been dreaming, wouldn't it make sense that someone would have tested it, or tried to, and somewhere out there is evidence of the scientific community saying either "We tried that in the '50's, and it doesn't work," or "a century of psychiatric study and sleep lab results have revealed no provable trace of dream-sharing." You'd think there would be.

And you'd think, given that we all now have the world at our fingertips (some of us can even access university and government websites as well), somebody here could use their search skills to find just one scientist or psychologist (they are different) confirming or denying the existence of provable dream-sharing. Wouldn't you?

There are some studies, actually, I looked up a couple last night. There are some having to do with telepathy. One example is "Psychology and anomalous observations: The question of ESP in dreams.
Child, Irvin L.": (http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1986-13291-001), which has been disputed. You might be able to find the study free to read somewhere else. The problem is that it's not that cut-and-dried. You could probably find studies that show both results and non-results.

Its nice to see we all have moved a least somewhat on this topic concerning our opinions.

There are studies that claim it is true with evidence to back up that opinion. Im in the middle of compiling a butt-load of info to post on the forum to that effect. And once again I will say, you wont see mainstream scientific research attempting to verify shared dreaming.
However, we will see the response my research garners. The assumptions we all hold land us on either side of opinion yet we rarely question our own assumptions...

Originally Posted by Jakob

This is ridiculous, and I'm disappointed that a very intelligent person like Sageous actually gave a "like" for your post.

Originally Posted by zombiesarebad

why would it need to be sponsored? If two individuals were ever able to wake up and report the same (or strikingly similar) dream, isolated from each other in a controlled environment, financial backing would be easy to get. But nobody has ever been able to do that.

Do you even know of any studies that have been done that had negative results like what you're asserting? Just curious.

Now we are getting somewhere with this debating!
And to my knowledge, Jakob? You don't have to repeat yourself about making yourself clear about you never saying shared dreaming doesn't exist, i think some people here know this already from you, but we are actually getting mixed signals from you. Seems like when you are repeating yourself you just want attention or someone to even "quote" you back to alter another argument that won't go no where. Btw i didn't think zombiesarebad was even quoting you directly or even mentioned you in his post when you quoted him about the existence thing.

Originally Posted by Jakob

The only thing that's missing: shared dreamers who are willing to engage in this sort of experiment.

No that's not the part that's missing. I've e-mailed dream academics and haven't even gotten a response. And WakingNomad has done a fair amount of that also.

Its an easy thing to study in terms of cost of equipment, but it does require a significant investment of time and professional risk, for reasons that have been discussed at length elsewhere. It doesn't appear to me that most of you have worked in a research environment and had to find funding for your projects and get approval by the institution you work in.

Originally Posted by MindGames

Do you even know of any studies that have been done that had negative results like what you're asserting? Just curious.

Absence of Evidence is Evidence of Absence.

Excuse me i am going to laugh now... >

Go right ahead. The only thing that you could laugh about are your arguments, or lack thereof. Basically your entire argument for shared dreaming is a variation of "show me a study which disproves shared dreaming", and "show me a scientist who says it's impossible".

Very weak indeed.