Thread: Shared Dreaming Debate

Look who's talking, you want evidence as well, so what's the point of even bringing this up? You are actually beating yourself UP.

Originally Posted by Jakob

Go right ahead. The only thing that you could laugh about are your arguments, or lack thereof. Basically your entire argument for shared dreaming is a variation of "show me a study which disproves shared dreaming", and "show me a scientist who says it's impossible".

Very weak indeed.

Originally Posted by Jakob

LaBerge certainly didn't risk his reputation by trying to prove Lucid Dreaming, and he did it successfully. A long time ago I had a PhD professor tell me that "lucid dreaming is bogus." Then after reading LaBerge's book Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, he started believing in it, then began practicing, and now he's in love with it.

So why not take it one step further and do a study on shared dreaming? Because the outcome would most likely be negative.

And you want proof of this study right? Look it up! Stop talking and give me links about shared dreaming is impossible or made up.
Do i have to bring up your past quotes to remind you what you were talking about?

Originally Posted by Jakob

Or you may be trying very hard to find "patterns" in your life, and that way you are much more likely to notice 22, 222, and 2222 appearing, than to notice 0, 239, 4938, or 239819.

On a more serious note:

Honestly, no I don't believe in shared dreaming. And if it does exist, I think it would be extremely rare, limited only to individuals with extraordinary telepathic/ESP abilities. These two "shared dreamers" would also have to be in REM sleep at the same time in order for it to work. I am not saying it cannot exist, I am simply saying I don't see any evidence for it's existence at this time. So many studies have been done on dreams, by Celia Green, Stephen LaBerge, etc., and there is no study which confirms this supposed phenomenon. It's also a bit funny to me to see all these threads on DreamViews, with people claiming they have shared dreams. Some people on DV are even claiming that they're having it on a regular basis. Something like this would actually be easy to prove if it did exist, and it would be a potential candidate for a succesful victory at the James Randi Foundation (google "randi challenge" for more info). Here's the setup:

1.) Find two experienced shared dreamers (there are supposedly many here on DreamViews).
2.) Arrange a setting where they can't communicate with one another, and make sure they fall asleep approximately at the same time, in order to be in REM around the same time.
3.) Tell subject A, to give a certain password to subject B, once they are together lucid in the dream state.

End of story. If they are for real, they'll be able to give information to one another from the dream state. So what are the shared dreamers waiting for? James Randi will give them one million dollars if they can prove it.

I don't mean to sound arrogant, since I actually believe in ESP and many other things which are "out there", so I am not a "skeptic" at all. The thing is, this shared dreaming thing annoys me very much, just because I see so many threads with people claiming they experienced it, and others claiming it's easy to experience it, and others supposedly having it on a regular basis.

I am simply being as honest as I can be. I am very annoyed when I see threads on this forum such as "The Etiquette of Shared Dreaming."

It makes me really angry. No offense intended.

Jakob

Reminder why i ask for proof of shared dreaming if it's impossible or made up, go find negative links to prove that shared dreaming won't work if you think that. If not then wait in the future for such studies! Btw i do have those rare abilities you talk about, so i guess you have to stop judging people here because you never know if one of them have those abilities aka esp. I am actually one step ahead of you and know what you are trying to do. nice try though.

Originally Posted by Jakob

Absence of Evidence is Evidence of Absence.

You can't really make that claim if you don't know of any studies that have been done on it. I'm happy to take a look at any studies which show that there's no evidence for the existence of shared dreaming, though.

And my original post was directed at zombiesarebad anyway, since he's making the claim that nobody's ever been able to have a shared dream in a controlled environment. In which case he needs to back that up by providing some studies where this was done.

I do not have lack of arguments, ALL of my posts i have said here is 100% true and real, don't want to accept that i share dream and have telepathic abilities? That's fine with me, but i "don't have to" prove these things (once again i am saying) to stupid ignorant people who come here and start debating what they don't know and actually act like they know. <THIS angers me.
And your anger Jakob is not wanted here in this thread, as for what you just said when i quoted you, you said you get really angry seeing threads like these. Stop spreading your negative energy, it is obvious for me to know it and i do not respond to anger well.

Originally Posted by Mindraker

The reason why I am disagreeing with shared dreaming is quite simple: You have a hypothesis ("shared dreaming is possible..."). But you've already concluded that this hypothesis is true, and you want others (like myself) to believe that this hypothesis is true, without having some kind of scientifically verifiable method to prove that your hypothesis is true.

Remember, the burden is on you to be able to prove your claim. It is not on me to disprove your hypothesis, even though I've already cast more than enough reasonable doubt upon it.

Look, if I were in your shoes, this is what I would do. I'd take several volunteers, split into two groups, hooked up to a EEG (electroencephalogram) while they are asleep in the same environment. I would monitor their brain activity while they are asleep. One group would attempt to perform dream sharing, the other would not. I would then compare the EEG results.

If I could see that the EEG graph showed remarkable coincidences between my volunteers in Group 1 that didn't show up in Group 2, then I would have an arguable case that dream sharing might be possible.

But why leave out the assignment of a password along with coordinated eye movements? If the EEG graph showed "remarkable coincidences", that simply isn't good enough. It is not in any way comparable to having a password that's been given from one dreamer to another, and matching eye movements to go with it.

That would prove shared dreaming beyond a doubt.

Originally Posted by hathor28

And you want proof of this study right? Look it up! Stop talking and give me links about shared dreaming is impossible or made up.
Do i have to bring up your past quotes to remind you what you were talking about?

With all due respect, I have problems understanding your posts, because you are somewhat incoherent.

I am saying that shared dreaming might exist, or it might not exist. Get it? I'm really not sure you are getting it.

I am not ruling out the existence of shared dreaming (for the 684531457523th time), but simply pointing out that I would believe in strongly if 1.) i experienced it, or 2.) i've seen a study by a good dream researcher which shows evidence for it (such as the study i suggested).

You on the other hand, are rambling on and on with incoherent assertions, and you demand that I show you evidence of it's nonexistence, which is pretty much pathetic (to say the least).

I suggest you take a class in logic and critical thinking.

Jakob

Originally Posted by Jakob

Absence of Evidence is Evidence of Absence.

But in your case its evidence of ignorance, because there is evidence but you won't consider it.

Was there no knowledge in the world prior to peer reviewed studies? Where do you think scientific knowledge came from? People looked at stuff first, then it was rigorously demonstrated and explained much later.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

But in your case its evidence of ignorance, because there is evidence but you won't consider it.

Show me the evidence. Show me a controlled study which covers this subject.

Was there no knowledge in the world prior to peer reviewed studies? Where do you think scientific knowledge came from? People looked at stuff first, then it was rigorously demonstrated and explained much later.

I think it is pathetic to claim the following:

There are no studies which disprove shared dreaming.
Therefore, there is a high likelihood it does indeed exist, and we should believe all the fantastic tales from DV members who share dreams every night.

That is basically what hathor28 is putting forth. My reasoning, on the other hand, is this:

I have seen no documented studies on shared dreaming so far.
Therefore, I doubt it's existence, but I am not ruling it out.

Jakob

Like i said last post, wait for future studies, why are you acting so dumb really? You said there should be studies of this and yet you ask for evidence? You make no sense.
And so far you are actually doing this on purpose to get under peoples skin. This isn't debating what you are doing, it is causing an uproar in this thread only because you are angered by threads like these. Which looks very low and lame.

Originally Posted by Jakob

Show me the evidence. Show me a controlled study which covers this subject.


I think it is pathetic to claim the following:

There are no studies which disprove shared dreaming.
Therefore, there is a high likelihood it does indeed exist, and we should believe all the fantastic tales from DV members who share dreams every night.

That is basically what hathor28 is putting forth. My reasoning, on the other hand, is this:

I have seen no documented studies on shared dreaming so far.
Therefore, I doubt it's existence, but I am not ruling it out.

Jakob

Originally Posted by hathor28

Like i said last post, wait for future studies, why are you acting so dumb really? You said there should be studies of this and yet you ask for evidence? You make no sense.
And so far you are actually doing this on purpose to get under peoples skin. This isn't debating what you are doing, it is causing an uproar in this thread only because you are angered by threads like these. Which looks very low and lame.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

The sad thing is, you probably have no idea either.

You say you won't believe in something unless it has been demonstrated by a controlled study. But you came in here saying not just that you are agnostic about shared dreaming, which would be perfectly reasonable, but that you are angry that other people talk as if shared dreaming is real. Apparently, you want other people to use the same standard of evidence that you use, and furthermore disregard their own experience if there is not yet a study supporting it. Without first attempting to hear and understand what their experiences are, you immediately speculate about their experiences and tell them what you think they experienced. Your speculations about possible fallacies that lead people to believe in shared dreaming completely fail to explain my experiences, but you can't know that, because you don't know what my experiences are, and don't even care. That's what makes you ignorant. Its OK to not care about what other people experience. But then when you make judgments about things you don't care to know about, you don't know what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by Jakob

I think it is pathetic to claim the following:
There are no studies which disprove shared dreaming.
Therefore, there is a high likelihood it does indeed exist, and we should believe all the fantastic tales from DV members who share dreams every night.
I have seen no documented studies on shared dreaming so far.
Therefore, I doubt it's existence, but I am not ruling it out.
Jakob

Yet you mock DV members who shares dreams? OK bye.

Mindraker >Shared dreaming is scientifically impossible

Jakob>That, I disagree with. After seeing many studies which fail to prove it, only then I might be able to say something like that.
But until that happens, I can't rule out it's existence, although I am doubtful of it.

Originally Posted by Jakob

But why leave out the assignment of a password along with coordinated eye movements? If the EEG graph showed "remarkable coincidences", that simply isn't good enough. It is not in any way comparable to having a password that's been given from one dreamer to another, and matching eye movements to go with it.

That would prove shared dreaming beyond a doubt.

Frankly, I really don't care HOW they attempt to prove that shared dreaming is real, as long as they give me SOMETHING. Right now, they're not giving me _anything_ credible, verifiable, or tangible, which tells me that I can crumple this up and throw it away without losing any sleep (pun intended).

Yes, a password shared dream test would be nice, but it would take incredible discipline on all parties involved. The problem with a password dream test is that it already puts a suggestion into people's heads what the dream is supposed to be about: passwords.

As we've said before, the duty is on the person who makes the claim to prove whether his/her claim is right. And we're just not seeing it happen. We're beating this thread to death. Shared dreaming is scientifically impossible.

Originally Posted by Mindraker

Shared dreaming is scientifically impossible.

That, I must disagree with. After seeing many studies which fail to prove it, only then I might be able to say something like that.

But until that happens, I can't rule out it's existence, although I am doubtful of it.

Originally Posted by Mindraker

As we've said before, the duty is on the person who makes the claim to prove whether his/her claim is right.

You came to a forum where people talk to each other about what they experience. They have no duty to try to convince you of anything.

I know I probably shouldn't keep getting involved in this against someone who clearly doesn't understand what a debate is, but I do have a few more points to make.

Originally Posted by hathor28

I do not have lack of arguments

Oh really? I beg to differ; your "arguments" all seem to be either along the lines of "give me scientific proof shared dreaming doesn't exist" or simply just making fun of things other people, mainly Jakob, have said (which, by the way, doesn't make anybody look bad but you).

Originally Posted by hathor28

ALL of my posts i have said here is 100% true and real

If your posts are all "100% true", like you insist, then you must have proof, correct?

Originally Posted by hathor28

Stop spreading your negative energy

Jakob isn't spreading any negative energy. He is simply bringing up logical counter-arguments, which you apparently don't want to address. You, on the other hand, ARE spreading negative energy with your constant insults and attacks directed toward him. Just because you disagree with someone is no excuse to act like a jerk toward them, especially in what is supposed to be a civilized debate.

Originally Posted by Jakob

I think it is pathetic to claim the following:

There are no studies which disprove shared dreaming.
Therefore, there is a high likelihood it does indeed exist, and we should believe all the fantastic tales from DV members who share dreams every night.

That is basically what hathor28 is putting forth. My reasoning, on the other hand, is this:

I have seen no documented studies on shared dreaming so far.
Therefore, I doubt it's existence, but I am not ruling it out.

Jakob

This. Right here. You can't just assume shared dreaming exists because it hasn't been disproved. Well, you can, but you can't expect others to believe you just because you say so and call them ignorant and dumb.

Originally Posted by Mindraker

As we've said before, the duty is on the person who makes the claim to prove whether his/her claim is right. And we're just not seeing it happen. We're beating this thread to death. Shared dreaming is scientifically improbable.

Fixed this for you. It's fine to be skeptical; I am too, but you can't make the claim that it's impossible. Then you would carry the burden of proof.

Originally Posted by hathor28

Yet you mock DV members who shares dreams? OK bye.

I mocked them where? I just don't believe most of their stories. Sorry for being as honest as I could possibly be.

Do you believe everyone who claims they can do telekinesis?
Do you believe everyone who claims they can talk to God, and God talks to them?
Do you believe everyone who claims they can summon ghosts and talk to them?

You don't.

So please don't expect me to do the same for shared dreaming.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

You came to a forum where people talk to each other about what they experience. They have no duty to try to convince you of anything.

Duty is the wrong word. He shouldn't have used it.

Of course no one has a duty to prove or disprove anything to anybody. But we are talking about evidence, specifically scientific evidence which can be demonstrated through a simple study, and the burden of proof lies on those who are making the claim that shared dreaming exists. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Originally Posted by fennecgirl

This. Right here. You can't just assume shared dreaming exists because it hasn't been disproved. Well, you can, but you can't expect others to believe you just because you say so and call them ignorant and dumb.

Jakob isn't debating. He's cherry picking what appear to him to be the weakest arguments from the thread and arguing those, while ignoring everything he doesn't have an answer for. He is also responding to people's statements without first trying to understand what they were saying. That's not debating either.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Jakob isn't debating. He's cherry picking what appear to him to be the weakest arguments from the thread and arguing those, while ignoring everything he doesn't have an answer for. He is also responding to people's statements without first trying to understand what they were saying. That's not debating either.

While hathor28 is ignoring pretty much everything.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Jakob isn't debating. He's cherry picking what appear to him to be the weakest arguments from the thread and arguing those, while ignoring everything he doesn't have an answer for.

This is complete bull. Show me what I haven't addressed. How about addressing my replies to you? Here: http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/shared...ml#post1918149

He is also responding to people's statements without first trying to understand what they were saying. That's not debating either.

LOL, what an incoherent ramble. You guys really seem to be desperate with this shared dreaming thing.

Originally Posted by Jakob

Of course no one has a duty to prove or disprove anything to anybody. But we are talking about evidence, specifically scientific evidence which can be demonstrated through a simple study, and the burden of proof lies on those who are making the claim that shared dreaming exists. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Shared dreaming, if real, can not be easily demonstrated through a scientific study. I understand why and I have previously explained why. The 'proof' of a phenomena has to be appropriate for what the claimed phenomena actually is, not for some other phenomena which is not being claimed. Is that hard to understand?

There you go again thinking that you know me and what i believe in, jakob you are looking very bad here to bring things like this up when it's obvious off topic, you are a run around kind of person and jumps to other things when the others don't come up with religion, ghosts and telekinesis.
And yes you just mocked this thread and who ever believes in shared dreaming. You and your friend is really pathetic bunch of people here just to start problems. we all know this but i am the only one bringing out honesty and talking it out. Good luck on more debating here which will lead no where with you and fennecgirl. all she does is like posts and respond in wrong times, like when i was done with this she comes along and starts it all over again, honey keep posted, stop coming late in this debate because seems like you are just coming here to help out your little jakob. I am not responding to anymore people who quotes me as of now.

Originally Posted by Jakob

I mocked them where? I just don't believe most of their stories. Sorry for being as honest as I could possibly be.

Do you believe everyone who claims they can do telekinesis?
Do you believe everyone who claims they can talk to God, and God talks to them?
Do you believe everyone who claims they can summon ghosts and talk to them?

You don't.

So please don't expect me to do the same for shared dreaming.

It's very late, 04:34 AM, and I'm going to bed.

We'll continue this tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure I'll be faced with the same material: Shadowofwind and hathor28 will go around in circles, demanding scientific proof of the non-existence of shared dreaming.

Goodnight y'all!