Thread: Questions for the Astral Traveler

Originally Posted by Tarvus

You seem to be making an either-or assumption. It's a possibility that the same part of the brain used in reading digital clocks is disengaged during an OBE as well as in a lucid dream. Have you considered that? If you assume all single headlight vehicles are motorcycles you aren't accounting for the car with one burned-out headlight.

That's an interesting comparison! But...
Wouldn't that mean that everything is as unstable around you as the clock you're seeing. Which results in a regular lucid dream?

Originally Posted by dreamcatcher81

I gave an example in my post about reading lottery numbers posted in a news paper during what I would term an OBE. Those numbers never changed on me and they even showed up in the next lottery draw. Obe's don't come every day 4 me but Im willing to glance at a digital clock several times and see if my initial observations change. :-) Now I just need a digital clock because I don't have 1 by my bedside.

That's the spirit, now we need more people to confirm their findings!

Originally Posted by Gills

We do have a "device" of sorts, and that's called reality testing. What is so problematic about doing a simple digital clock RC during an OBE experience or during astral projection? Why does the question "did you ever do a digital clock RC during astral projection" always result in 20 paragraphs of text basically avoiding the issue?

Scenario 1: I think I have just separated from my body and I'm not in a dream. I do a reality check. The numbers change. Result: It's a dream.

Scenario 2: I think I have just separated from my body and I'm not in a dream. I do a reality check. The numbers do not change. I do it again, the numbers do not change. Result: It is not a dream, but another state of consciousness, perhaps really an out of body experience.

What is the problem? I don't see it.

OK, we need to start with question #5 to clarify why that is not valid. In question #5 you ask if AP and OBE are different. OBE is a very generic term like UFO. Any experience that seems to be out of body is an OBE. Therefore even a dream is OBE if you appear to be out of body. Think about UFO to get what I mean. If we are together in the woods and see a strange thing go overhead, and neither of us have a clue what it is, then to us it is a UFO unidentified (true) Flying (true) Object (true). I can say it was a UFO and be factual. I can not make the assumption that it was a space craft.
OBE is that kind of word. As long as you have an experience, and said experience appears to be out of your body, then it is, OBE. Therefore OBE is a meaningless word. It covers any experience, such as thinking you were a ghost, thinking you floated above your bed AND astral projection.

Now, in order to show why your experiment may be valid for some claims of OBE, but not for claims of AP, we need to clarify what AP is. The idea with AP is that other realms exist that are not composed of matter in the way we understand it. It basically involves crazy ideas like dimensional travel. That is leaving earth and this type of universe behind and experiencing things of a nature completely removed from the physical world. There for if someone claims to have done AP and gone all around their house then to the moon, they are using the term incorrectly. They have had a generic OBE, not AP.

Now a tiny bit on the supposed nature of such astral realms. It is supposed to be composed of a much less stable set of physics. It is messy and like a storm, with physical laws barely in place. The matter that composes it is unstable. While projecting into such a space we can see illusions created by our mind attempting to make heads or tails f what is going on. If you run into a life form, you will just create some image that fits your mental expectations. You may have run into a "real" thing, but all you can come up with in understanding is dream like interpretations. A hostile life form may be nothing like what you see, but your brain attempting to translate crazy input shows you your own idea of a devil and so on. Also, it is supposed to include areas of higher stability that can be inhabited. The stability is due to things like eddies in a current, or an eye of a storm.

So, there is your answer to #5. I now say that your whole premise is built off the idea of disproving/proving the form of OBE in which someone thinks they are walking/floating around the real world. The idea that there would be any form of clock in AP is flawed. If you saw a clock it would either be a real object there, that your brain was attempting to translate into some thing you comprehend, or it would be an illusion of a clock created by the expectation of the person experiencing AP.

Originally Posted by Deluksic

That's an interesting comparison! But...
Wouldn't that mean that everything is as unstable around you as the clock you're seeing. Which results in a regular lucid dream?

Yes, from my experience and from talking with others, the very nature of this type of OBE involves a separation from the advantage of a reasoning brain. You may see details that seem like you must have really been observing, while on the other hand you feel deranged and messed up like on drugs. You may see weird things that make no sense at all.

That is not to say it is 100% only an LD with nothing else going on, but both this form of OBE and AP conform to the same form as LDs do. be they the same or not, they clearly seem very related. Perhaps, if we wish to believe in something beyond ordinary, we can go with the same partsof the brain interpreting all 3 experiences.

It's always an interesting discussion but it's always one that goes round in circles. In the end people have to make up their own minds about what they believe. There really is no absolute proof one way or another. One thing a previous poster said about seeing a UFO and comparing that to the term OBE kind of made me think of the X Files poster that says "I want to Believe." For those type of people that want to believe that's ok for them. For others that's just not enough. We might as well be talking about whether the universe was created from the big bang or if God created it. For me I'm comfortable with my own beliefs and I'm also fine with other people having theirs. This is something I try to get across to new people joining the forums that come on asking a million questions about "is this normal etc", I caution them to make up their own minds about their own personal experiences. How can someone else really say what happened when it did not happen to them personally?

. . . Yes, I'm getting dizzy!

Gills - please answer these questions yourself - It may provide some insight for those of us that don't have the breadth of experience that you obviously have. I, like Runeword, have my own beliefs about my experiences that can never be changed for me. What I feel and how it affects me will always be different than you and everyone else. Just because it works for you doesn't mean it will be the same for me. The same thing as some people suffer from mental illness and others don't - we can't always have perfect answers to these questions - Subjective I believe life is.

cheers

Ok, so me not doing your experiment suggests, I am trying to ignore the facts.
If I go into a dream, and see a clock at 7:35pm then look back several times, and the clock is at the same time. Does this mean I am out of body.
Then I wake up, and write my findings down in a dream journal.
I do this for several weeks, and always get the same result.
This proves only one thing. That my dreams are quite stable.
It could also mean that this reality check may not be suitable in this context.
A freshman dreamer may use the clock as a reliable source, but what happens when the dreamer hones his skills, and starts seeing more stable items in dreams.
Also, you might not expect a novice to be able to move out of body, that is' if such a task were possible.
From your experiences, I think it is difficult to prove any o'o'b' experience. But very easy to disprove.
Not so from other peoples perspective.
If there were nobody on this forum with dreaming skills, then what about the advanced meditators in the world.
I am talking about monks, and yogis, etc
They all have experiences of oob.
Or are these people wrong as well.

Lets say OOBE are real, and tonight, you leave your body.
You jump into the astral world, and notice that you no longer follow the laws of physics.
You may be fluctuating in the present time line. One minute her, next minute you have jumped an hour or so.
The clock reality checks will have you believing the facts are not true.

Assuming your oobe is real, how do you propose to prove it to others. Or rather, make them believe your story.

Originally Posted by sivason

Yes, from my experience and from talking with others, the very nature of this type of OBE involves a separation from the advantage of a reasoning brain. You may see details that seem like you must have really been observing, while on the other hand you feel deranged and messed up like on drugs. You may see weird things that make no sense at all.

... which sounds like nothing more than a dream.

That is not to say it is 100% only an LD with nothing else going on, but both this form of OBE and AP conform to the same form as LDs do. be they the same or not, they clearly seem very related. Perhaps, if we wish to believe in something beyond ordinary, we can go with the same partsof the brain interpreting all 3 experiences.

Sure it could be similar, but in the stories I hear, and talking from personal experience, I don't see the slightest difference other than the storyline: the fact that we dream about being out of our bodies.

In other words I don't see anything that makes me believe I am truly out of my body. The reason why I got into lucid dreaming in the first place was because of my "OBEs" 10 years ago. I believed I was truly separating from my body and bragged about it to friends. This lead me to researching about OBEs and I came across lucid dreaming, WILDs, and reality testing.

Your last sentence sums it up pretty well. "Perhaps, if we wish to believe in something beyond ordinary, we can go with the same partsof the brain interpreting all 3 experiences."

But I, personally, don't see any evidence to believe in it.

Originally Posted by TiredPhil

Ok, so me not doing your experiment suggests, I am trying to ignore the facts.

It means you're not interested to see how a clock reacts during an OBE, and/or how an OBE-clock behaves differently from a dream-clock.

If I go into a dream, and see a clock at 7:35pm then look back several times, and the clock is at the same time. Does this mean I am out of body.

It most likely means you are not dreaming, because there is no clock in a dream. There is no bedroom in a dream. There are no objects in dreams. They are creations of our mind and/or subconscious, while a digital clock during an OBE is a real clock that should be at least a bit more stable than a dream-clock.

Then I wake up, and write my findings down in a dream journal.
I do this for several weeks, and always get the same result.
This proves only one thing. That my dreams are quite stable.

Your scenario is very unlikely. There is a reason, scientifically explained, why test/numbers are unstable in dreams. If numbers never change for you in a dream then you are a special human being.

It could also mean that this reality check may not be suitable in this context.
A freshman dreamer may use the clock as a reliable source, but what happens when the dreamer hones his skills, and starts seeing more stable items in dreams.

You can be skilled all you want, if you look at the same "clock" at least three times, it will change.

Also, you might not expect a novice to be able to move out of body, that is' if such a task were possible.
From your experiences, I think it is difficult to prove any o'o'b' experience. But very easy to disprove.
Not so from other peoples perspective.

We can't prove it to other people, but we can discuss the similarities/differences between an OBE and a regular dream. Sadly there aren't any differences. You see weird things, text is unstable, numbers are unstable. It might very well be "something" else, but we need to have a reason why we believe that other than "I wish it were true." And remember: the burden of proof is always on the person claiming something.

If there were nobody on this forum with dreaming skills, then what about the advanced meditators in the world.
I am talking about monks, and yogis, etc
They all have experiences of oob.
Or are these people wrong as well.

I am not saying anyone is wrong. I am simply saying that dreams can recreate incredible scenarios and make you believe lots of things. Separating from your body and looking at it lying in bed is one of them. Or are you claiming a dream cannot create this particular experience?

Lets say OOBE are real, and tonight, you leave your body.
You jump into the astral world, and notice that you no longer follow the laws of physics.
You may be fluctuating in the present time line. One minute her, next minute you have jumped an hour or so.
The clock reality checks will have you believing the facts are not true.

The digital clock reality check isn't the only one. Why not observe your sleeping body during an OBE? Are your clothes the same ones you fell asleep in? What about your hair? What about the objects near the bed? Is the bedroom exactly the same? Then what about the body you are viewing your sleeping body from? Look at your hands. Look at your clothes. If you have any clothes at all, how is that possible? Do mirrors show a reflection of this body? If yes, what is the logic behind that?

I mean, there are really useful things to experiment with in order to verify if this state is something other than a dream, but if you are not interested, then that is your choice.

Assuming your oobe is real, how do you propose to prove it to others. Or rather, make them believe your story.

I'm not attempting to prove or disprove. I simply want people to make up their own mind by critically examining/testing their state.

Originally Posted by LucidAurora

. . . Yes, I'm getting dizzy!

Gills - please answer these questions yourself - It may provide some insight for those of us that don't have the breadth of experience that you obviously have. I, like Runeword, have my own beliefs about my experiences that can never be changed for me. What I feel and how it affects me will always be different than you and everyone else. Just because it works for you doesn't mean it will be the same for me. The same thing as some people suffer from mental illness and others don't - we can't always have perfect answers to these questions - Subjective I believe life is.

cheers

Have you ever done a reality test during an OBE? If yes, what was the reality test, and what were the results?

Very simple.

Yes - it seems simple . . . But I've never had an OBE there big guy. I'm asking you too, so that I/we can get some insight into where this might help. This started out kind of interesting, but really seems like this is just going in circles. Answer your own questions please so that we can learn more . . .

cheers

Originally Posted by LucidAurora

Yes - it seems simple . . . But I've never had an OBE there big guy. I'm asking you too, so that I/we can get some insight into where this might help.

I've had OBEs, and in every OBE reality checks revealed that I'm dreaming. I have no reason to believe that an OBE is anything other than a dream about me leaving my body.

This started out kind of interesting, but really seems like this is just going in circles. Answer your own questions please so that we can learn more . . .

I already answered the questions, as did Runeword. All it comes down to is belief. People believe, for some reason I can't understand, that an OBE is not a dream but something "else".

Thanks Gill, I agree with pretty much all of what you have said, now that we are clearly talking about OBE on a supposed Earth. I have seen nothing to prove to me this form of experience is not just a dream. I have had interesting feelings that were different from most dreams and been impacted in a way that made me wonder if something a little more complicated than just a dream was going on, but mostly I think this form of OBE is just a WILD that takes place in nREM sleep. The difference in sleep phase could explain why it feels different. IF something more is going on, I assume it is more like a weak Psychic probing of the world around you, in which case it is no more a separation from the body, than the sense of hearing is. I do believe in mental ability beyond the standard well understood stuff. Being so deeply into mental yoga (started at 9 years old and am now 42) that I have no problem assuming the title "Yogi" I have witnessed amazing things, but a belief that I can leave my body just has never been one of them. I do have a belief that I can extend my awareness using senses we poorly understand. If OBE, which I feel is a WILD in nREM has anything else going on, I think it is just some weak psychic probing and not leaving the body. I accept your method of testing as being very reasonable in this form of OBE.

However, AP is a totally different matter. I honestly think discussion of it deserves its own thread as the two things are vastly different. In AP you could not turn and look at your body, as you are supposedly no longer in this world. I do believe that I have AP adventures and have been having hundreds of them going back 20ish years. In them there is one experience that I can not describe well, any more than one can describe the knowing about yellow and blue being different. That experience is meeting life forms there. The place is full of illusion created by your expectations, but when dealing with an astral entity it is very clear that they are separate from your mind. Also, as far as can I do the same things in AP as in LDs, yes and no. I can create the illusion of about anything, but I can only barely effect the actual substance of the place. In the chaos of the storm it is nothing like an LD unless you have f&^%ed up dreams. It is like being stuck in a turbulent river; you can have an effect on your course, but NOT by changing the river itself. In stable areas powerful entities have stabilized the laws of physics to the best of their ability. In a well establish area gravity is real. To oppose gravity take effort and that effort is exhausting, much like jumping up and down is here.
I still do not believe AP involves leaving your body, and I do believe the brain is processing the data with its dream center. I think it is a matter of some poorly understood psychic power that allows observation and limited interaction of worlds removed from ours, but not by leaving your body. I doubt I can create similes that work for such a mysterious weird event.

Here is something interesting I noticed for quite some time, and I confirmed it this morning.

It seems that when I have a WILD, if I distance myself too much from my bedroom, the dream begins to fade and I wake up. I'm not kidding.

I can go into the living room, kitchen, front of the house, and neighbour's house, and the dream is quite stable. But when I try to go down the street and turn right or left, it just becomes unstable and I wake up within less than a minute. Any thoughts why?

Originally Posted by Gills

Here is something interesting I noticed for quite some time, and I confirmed it this morning.

It seems that when I have a WILD, if I distance myself too much from my bedroom, the dream begins to fade and I wake up. I'm not kidding.

I can go into the living room, kitchen, front of the house, and neighbour's house, and the dream is quite stable. But when I try to go down the street and turn right or left, it just becomes unstable and I wake up within less than a minute. Any thoughts why?

Perhaps because you are getting too far away from your digital clock? (Sorry, couldn't resist! )

Originally Posted by Tarvus

Perhaps because you are getting too far away from your digital clock? (Sorry, couldn't resist! )

LoL. No, really, what do you think is the reason for this?

Perhaps in a WILD the brain is unable to quickly create the way other houses and streets look like, and the dream ends because it is overwhelmed? No clue, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

In a DILD this problem doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by Gills

LoL. No, really, what do you think is the reason for this?

Perhaps in a WILD the brain is unable to quickly create the way other houses and streets look like, and the dream ends because it is overwhelmed? No clue, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

In a DILD this problem doesn't exist.

I really don't know. Without trying to resurrect the previous discussion on whether OBE's are a form of lucid dream or not, I will say this: In every OBE type experience I have had (4 of them), I inevitably remained near where my physical body was. In fact, in three of them, I have only been able to partially "get out" of my physical body and had the sensation of extremities being "stuck" inside my body. Of those 4 experiences, two were WILD types and two were DILD types. In all of my "regular" lucid dreams, I have been able to go anywhere and do basically anything. I should mention, I have never had a "regular" WILD lucid dream though. They were both OBE types. The fourth OBE type time, when I had an OBE type experience and was completely "out" I remained in the same room from which the exit had occurred.

Assuming lucid dreams and OBE are both manifestations of the lucid dream experience, there apparently are some distinctions between the two types. Your experiences with WILDS and mine with both WILD and DILD OBE type experiences are similar in this regard.

Originally Posted by Gills

Here is something interesting I noticed for quite some time, and I confirmed it this morning.

It seems that when I have a WILD, if I distance myself too much from my bedroom, the dream begins to fade and I wake up. I'm not kidding.

I can go into the living room, kitchen, front of the house, and neighbour's house, and the dream is quite stable. But when I try to go down the street and turn right or left, it just becomes unstable and I wake up within less than a minute. Any thoughts why?

I've noticed this at times too. I liken it to a computer loading time. Maybe our subconscious has a certain amount of dream world loaded up to interact in and we just get too far ahead of it too fast.

If it were something like my theoretical psychic probe, rather than true separation, then maybe it is like any other sense, such as hearing. That is, maybe it has limits relating to how far away the sense stays useful. If it is just an LD then I would guess you expect to see real life stuff, and are very familiar with the stuff closest to you. Then when you travel further from that comfortable well known area, the rendering of realistic scale models would become more taxing. Perhaps if someone used stabilization tricks every 50 feet or so, they could go further?

That's exactly what I thought as well, you just worded it perfectly. Both Runeword and sivason.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by sivason

If it were something like my theoretical psychic probe,

Now, I know you are going to have to come up with a better phrase than "Psychic Probe"

1. Based on what exactly do you believe that astral travel and lucid dreaming aren't one and the same thing?
I believe that Astral Travel and OBE are the same thing, I believe that Lucid Dreaming and Astral/OBE are the same - because I can switch between OBE/Astral to Lucid and back to OBE/Astral. So basically it is the same thing, but you might experience different feelings.

2. Have you ever done a digital clock reality check while astral projecting? If yes, what were the results, and if not, why not?
Yes, i did it very often. For some period i did DEILD every time i woke up, i came back to my Lucid Dream where i came to my room, saw my self sleeping, then i walked to living room and checked clock, then i woke up. But i checked real time clock only when i knew that i could not logically predict time. For example i did not check real time when my alarm waked me up, i did not check time when my wife woke me in the morning because i had to go to work. I only checked time when i woke up in the middle of the night or when i was sleeping for extended amount of time on weekends. As for the time it self, time was logical in my Lucid Dreams, for example if i checked time before i go to my adventures it was 9;00 then i came back from my Lucid Dreaming and checked time again and it was 9:40 or more, i understand that my inner clock and logic could know the approximate amount of time i was away. Regarding my real time check-ups, i almost never matched exact time, best what i did was 5-10 minutes different and it was still a good result considering that i could wake up at 3:00 night and i no way could predict what time it is exactly i went back to my Lucid Dream checked time in my apartment and woke up. Of course sometimes i had time difference of 2-3 hours. For my self i know exact explanation and the reason why it happened this way. This is a separate discussion, i will keep on topic.

3. What can you do during astral projection that you can't do while lucid dreaming?
Everything that i could do in my Lucid Dreams, because both of them are connected as per my view. I might experience little bit different feelings if i started my dream with OBE/Astral and then continued to Lucid Dreaming, but it was still the same event.

4. What can you do in a lucid dream that you can't do during astral projection?
Everything that i could do in my OBE/Astral, because both of them are connected as per my view. I might experience little bit different feelings if i started my dream with Lucid Dream and then continued to OBE/Astral, but it was still the same event.

5. Is there a difference between an OBE and astral projection?
No difference as per my view. I believe for some people events can determine whether it was Astral or OBE, but in the end i think it is the same thing.

6. How do astral beings behave differently from dream characters (or dream beings)?
This is a very long and complicated question, i do not know what is the exact difference between astral beings and dream characters. I believe that OBE/Astral is the same thing as Lucid Dreaming. You will ask me why did i say that i do not know the difference - because i think there is a difference in behavior when you see beings while you observe you self, your apartment in other words while you are close to your body. There were many weird situation that i had during experiments in time between OBE Lucid Dream and awake, but this is a separate topic.

7. Have you ever thought you were astral projecting and then it turned out to be just a regular lucid dream? If yes, how did this happen?
I know that i can switch between OBE/Astral to Lucid Dream, back and forth with no problems. So i did not have this kind of question. But usually i prefer to stay in Lucid Dream, unless i want to do some experiments in OBE or in other words somewhere around my body.


I answered to all your questions very honestly. Thank You for making such a topic.

Great post, flowofmysoul. Thanks.

thanks, this is a great topic.

i finally found my section on DV