Thread: Questions for the Astral Traveler

Hi, I am pretty new to this site but find astral projection very fascinating.

I have recently started learning how to LD so that I can learn the difference between Ld and AP.

I am actually attending courses on this exact phenomenon and have recently just passed phase one. Due to my utmost interest and progress I have been invited to skip phase 2 and go onto phase 3 which entails deep meditation, and astral projection. and from what Ive heard from friends also attending these courses. They experienced the folowing:

An object was hidden in the back yard of a house close to the training center and nobody knew about this object, during their training that day they were shown a map from the training hall to the house as well as a picture of the house (without the object being in the picture of course). they were then told to astral project and go look at what object was behind the house. after 30 minutes of silence they were asked to write wat they saw behind the yard. All those who gave answers got it right. the few who didnt answer said they couldnt get that far away from their physical body due to fear etc.

I have however not had first hand experience and I hope this thread will be open by the time I am done so that i can give proper feedback. I am hoping that astral projection is real. because you can do so much with a skill like that. But I am not afraid to find out and post my honest answer, and being able to LD is all so new and I have still so much to learn that even that is awesum enough to be real.

Originally Posted by DarkFlatTop

Well one minute i was mentally dueling with these difficult concepts, in the backseat, and the next minute i was somewhere else. I was viewing what i felt was infinity, it wasn't a thing in the normal sense and i felt as if i could move into it, (i dont remember having a body) and leave from both the space where i was and from normal reality. It was only one step away (figuratively) but i was also satisfied and knew (100%) that this thing would always exist. I also came out of the experience knowing that death wasn't the end and no matter how things went it would be alright at the end. I'm a christian and the experience only strengthened my beliefs/

The experience was in actuality seconds long, and it felt to me to be less than 30 seconds. But i was glad that i had my one glimpse to sustain me for my whole life.
Now I know that was not a lucid dream because i was wide awake and it just spontaneously happened.

Although I'm not able to understand exactly what you saw/heard/felt, I do understand that this was some type of transcendental experience, which can also be part of a dream, both lucid and non-lucid. How you can be 100% sure that you were "wide awake" yet at the same time not remember having a body is a bit odd.

Im not sure if this would be considered "astral"; OBE really is a very general term. I mean you can OBE on drugs, in dreams or like the above. This is where i believe these things become one, because they are all experienced within in our minds, but the mind is ALOT deeper than our normal everyday awareness. Even this physical world is experienced with the mind so in a way all experiences are of the same make.

No they're not of the same make. Dreaming about being out of your body is not the same as actually being out of your body, and dreaming about moving through the astral plane is not the same thing as actually being in the astral plane (if such a thing exists).

Also i find your near obsession with the digital clock RC kind of silly. Text is very stable in my dreams and i cant think of any occasion in which it has changed on me, both in lucid and non lucid dreams. Its all about expectation, i decided early on i wouldn't do RCs which could unconsciously lead to instability; such as finger through palm, and expecting clock/text to change upon looking back. I expect my body to be solid so i treat it that way, and the same goes for reading.

My "obsession" with the digital clock RC is not silly at all. It is the perfect way to test your state when you are "out of your body", and the instability of text in dreams has absolutely nothing to do with expectation. There are parts of the brain that are much less active when we are asleep, and one of these parts is the one necessary for reading text. So unless you are a superhuman with special capabilities, text will always be unstable. Maybe not the second time you look at it, but surely the third time it will change. It is also interesting to note that those who propagate the AP/OBE "phenomenon" are always the ones claiming that text is completely stable in their dreams. There was not one single person on the old lucidity.com forums back in 2004 that claimed text was stable in his/her dream. I remember a huge thread about this, and not one person was able to read the same time off a digital clock three times. Not, one, person.

I also have to separate reading text from reading numbers, and that's because numbers are a much better reality check. Here is an example from one of my dream journal entries: I have had a simple word, "Monitor", change into "Moritor", "Monters", "Monique", and finally "Machine." This is all somewhat similar, and you can notice a sort of pattern... that the brain tries to make this particular word (Monitor) stable as much as it can, but it just fails, and mutates into something else slowly... whereas numbers show a much more drastic change without any pattern. I've had "02:04" change into "7:30" and then into "16:82", and then into strange symbols.

To cut to the chase: I appreciate a good and honest discussion, but whenever someone tells me that text and numbers are always completely stable in their dreams, I simply cannot take them seriously.

Expectation can only play a part when you wish the word to morph into another word of your choice. This is possible, and can also be used as an RC. Of course the more complex the word or sentence is, the more unstable it will be. So the word "Sky" will be much more stable as opposed to "Toshiba" or "Pineapple".

Originally Posted by flowofmysoul

You are right about the clock, the only reason it changes because people believe that it will change, or they just read it somewhere.. I started lucid dreaming with only RC's and i never had anything weird with clock

Again, same as I said above. Nothing to do with expectation. It has to do with your brain being able to comprehend things. Some are more active while asleep, while others are less active. That's why we act like complete idiots in our dreams many times, thinking that it is normal, or maybe just a "little odd" that a cat is talking to us, or that we have 6 or 7 toes.

Yes, reading is possible in dreams, but re-reading is an entirely different matter, for the reasons above. Sure, I myself was able to read sentences in an LD and remember them clearly. But looking back at those sentences they were already slightly changing. By the third and fourth time it was something completely different. Fact check: There is no text in your dreams, and there is no digital clock either. And the "finer", or more detailed your dream objects are, the more "fluid" they will be.

Next time you, flowofmysoul, become lucid in a dream... please stand in front of a digital clock. Remember the numbers, look away, look back. Repeat twice. Then let me hook you up on a polygraph and ask you if the numbers changed. Fair enough?

Originally Posted by MrDee

I am actually attending courses on this exact phenomenon and have recently just passed phase one. Due to my utmost interest and progress I have been invited to skip phase 2 and go onto phase 3 which entails deep meditation, and astral projection. and from what Ive heard from friends also attending these courses. They experienced the folowing:

Just to let you know, I also have friends who claim extraordinary things.

An object was hidden in the back yard of a house close to the training center and nobody knew about this object, during their training that day they were shown a map from the training hall to the house as well as a picture of the house (without the object being in the picture of course). they were then told to astral project and go look at what object was behind the house. after 30 minutes of silence they were asked to write wat they saw behind the yard. All those who gave answers got it right. the few who didnt answer said they couldnt get that far away from their physical body due to fear etc.

Yes, of course, this is the perfect scenario. A man/woman leaves his/her body and brings back information; a drawing, a hidden object, a secret message, etc. etc.

The problem is this: Where the heck can I read a successful study about such a thing? Where are the sources for the info you just posted here? Is there any link at all you can provide? Who directed the experiment? Was this a controlled study?

I have however not had first hand experience and I hope this thread will be open by the time I am done so that i can give proper feedback. I am hoping that astral projection is real. because you can do so much with a skill like that. But I am not afraid to find out and post my honest answer, and being able to LD is all so new and I have still so much to learn that even that is awesum enough to be real.

Well, even though it does sound awesum, I suggest taking a look at this: Challenge Info

So if your friends can repeat the things they claim they did at this "AP course", they will be able pick up 1 million dollars from the James Randi Foundation and become famous. Why not do it? (Now this is most likely where the "money is unimportant to them" part comes in.)

Now, shadowofwind, I think your post is great, and I appreciate you taking the time to write such a lengthy post. I will respond to you tonight when I have more time.

Originally Posted by Empedocles

Again, same as I said above. Nothing to do with expectation. It has to do with your brain being able to comprehend things. Some are more active while asleep, while others are less active. That's why we act like complete idiots in our dreams many times, thinking that it is normal, or maybe just a "little odd" that a cat is talking to us, or that we have 6 or 7 toes.

Yes, reading is possible in dreams, but re-reading is an entirely different matter, for the reasons above. Sure, I myself was able to read sentences in an LD and remember them clearly. But looking back at those sentences they were already slightly changing. By the third and fourth time it was something completely different. Fact check: There is no text in your dreams, and there is no digital clock either. And the "finer", or more detailed your dream objects are, the more "fluid" they will be.

Next time you, flowofmysoul, become lucid in a dream... please stand in front of a digital clock. Remember the numbers, look away, look back. Repeat twice. Then let me hook you up on a polygraph and ask you if the numbers changed. Fair enough?

I agree, you can connect polygraph, i will read same clock as many times as you want, numbers will be the ones that i want. Same for text in books, if i will be able to read them first time, then i would re-read it again easily if i turn away and look back.

Trust me its is your prepossession which makes your numbers change, if you try to read the same numbers - somewhere inside you will keep the idea that it will not be the same.

Originally Posted by flowofmysoul

I agree, you can connect polygraph, i will read same clock as many times as you want, numbers will be the ones that i want. Same for text in books, if i will be able to read them first time, then i would re-read it again easily if i turn away and look back.

Unfortunately, I won't be able to test you with a polygraph. Of course you know that too.

And of course you know that you would fail the test miserably.

Trust me its is your prepossession which makes your numbers change, if you try to read the same numbers - somewhere inside you will keep the idea that it will not be the same.

Perhaps you meant to say presupposition -- and no, it's not my presupposition that makes the numbers change. It's the fact that:

1.) parts of my brain (and yours) which are responsible for these tasks are much less active in dreams,
2.) there is no external input upon which this text is based,
3.) your brain has to re-create the numbers and/or word/sentence each time you "look back".

The reason why numbers on the clock change is not because of our expectation, but because of the fact that there is no clock, and there is no text. Your mind creates and re-creates it, everytime you look at it, and look back. The brain creates your "text" without any external source, without external input of visual information, and therefore this text is unstable. For some individuals it might be more stable than others, and also depending on how vivid the dream is, but to claim your dream text is completely stable and you that therefore you have difficulty using it as a realty test is pure and simply bull.

So thanks but not thanks, I will not "trust" you that it is my presupposition. I have noticed unstable text in my dreams long before I knew what reality tests are.

Originally Posted by Empedocles

Unfortunately, I won't be able to test you with a polygraph. Of course you know that too.

And of course you know that you would fail the test miserably.


Perhaps you meant to say presupposition -- and no, it's not my presupposition that makes the numbers change. It's the fact that:

1.) parts of my brain (and yours) which are responsible for these tasks are much less active in dreams,
2.) there is no external input upon which this text is based,
3.) your brain has to re-create the numbers and/or word/sentence each time you "look back".

The reason why numbers on the clock change is not because of our expectation, but because of the fact that there is no clock, and there is no text. Your mind creates and re-creates it, everytime you look at it, and look back. The brain creates your "text" without any external source, without external input of visual information, and therefore this text is unstable. For some individuals it might be more stable than others, and also depending on how vivid the dream is, but to claim your dream text is completely stable and you that therefore you have difficulty using it as a realty test is pure and simply bull.

So thanks but not thanks, I will not "trust" you that it is my presupposition. I have noticed unstable text in my dreams long before I knew what reality tests are.

I will stick to my understanding. What you are saying does not comply to what i experience, that is the only reason why i will not agree with you. I hope one day you will turn back and see the same time again and again, then come back to this conversation and try to find where you did mistake.

Originally Posted by flowofmysoul

I will stick to my understanding. What you are saying does not comply to what i experience, that is the only reason why i will not agree with you. I hope one day you will turn back and see the same time again and again, then come back to this conversation and try to find where you did mistake.

I have made no mistake, and neither did Stephen LaBerge in his findings regarding visual information in dreams. Text and numbers are unstable because of the reasons I cited, and not because of expectation.

And no text is the same. There is simple text and complex sentences. You are able to modify simple text using your expectation, ex: transform "Memo" into "Mama", but to keep text or numbers completely stable after looking back 3 times or more, this will not be possible. At least not for the 98% of "normal" people. For superhumans like yourself, it might be a different story.

In any case, please let's not divert this discussion into talk about RCs. Let's keep it on-topic, and the topic is the existence of the astral plane, astral body, and astral beings.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Empedocles

I have made no mistake, and neither did Stephen LaBerge in his findings regarding visual information in dreams. Text and numbers are unstable because of the reasons I cited, and not because of expectation.

And no text is the same. There is simple text and complex sentences. You are able to modify simple text using your expectation, ex: transform "Memo" into "Mama", but to keep text or numbers completely stable after looking back 3 times or more, this will not be possible. At least not for the 98% of "normal" people. For superhumans like yourself, it might be a different story.

In any case, please let's not divert this discussion into talk about RCs. Let's keep it on-topic, and the topic is the existence of the astral plane, astral body, and astral beings.

Thanks.

As you wish, its your topic

Originally Posted by Empedocles

I have made no mistake, and neither did Stephen LaBerge in his findings regarding visual information in dreams. Text and numbers are unstable because of the reasons I cited, and not because of expectation.

And no text is the same. There is simple text and complex sentences. You are able to modify simple text using your expectation, ex: transform "Memo" into "Mama", but to keep text or numbers completely stable after looking back 3 times or more, this will not be possible. At least not for the 98% of "normal" people. For superhumans like yourself, it might be a different story.

In any case, please let's not divert this discussion into talk about RCs. Let's keep it on-topic, and the topic is the existence of the astral plane, astral body, and astral beings.

Thanks.

I replied honestly. Why is this such a hang up for you? You can accept text being the same on the second look back, but you cant accept it being the same on the third? Ridiculous.

The reason i said i dont remember having a body during my OBE is because it was years ago, and just posting about it makes me remember things about the experience that i had forgotten. Like the main message which was not that the thing would always be there (that was like bonus knowledge to comfort me), but that the answer to everything is within us, and we all know on some level. Besides even if i had a body i did not need to use it.

I say dreams, OBEs and waking life are all of the same make because they all happen in the mind. Even if you were to take some heroic dose of psychedelic drugs and have visions of an alien world while under the influence, or Astral project, or take a waking life trip to japan; its all in your mind. And if you believe it is not all in your mind, then where does the experience happen?

Have you heard of anyone who has ever had an Out of Mind Experience? lol. No i haven't either, because out of mind is out of us, we are the mind.

Originally Posted by MrDee

Hi, I am pretty new to this site but find astral projection very fascinating.

I have recently started learning how to LD so that I can learn the difference between Ld and AP.

I am actually attending courses on this exact phenomenon and have recently just passed phase one. Due to my utmost interest and progress I have been invited to skip phase 2 and go onto phase 3 which entails deep meditation, and astral projection. and from what Ive heard from friends also attending these courses. They experienced the folowing:

An object was hidden in the back yard of a house close to the training center and nobody knew about this object, during their training that day they were shown a map from the training hall to the house as well as a picture of the house (without the object being in the picture of course). they were then told to astral project and go look at what object was behind the house. after 30 minutes of silence they were asked to write wat they saw behind the yard. All those who gave answers got it right. the few who didnt answer said they couldnt get that far away from their physical body due to fear etc.

I have however not had first hand experience and I hope this thread will be open by the time I am done so that i can give proper feedback. I am hoping that astral projection is real. because you can do so much with a skill like that. But I am not afraid to find out and post my honest answer, and being able to LD is all so new and I have still so much to learn that even that is awesum enough to be real.

So according to your input.
If I hide an object in my garden, then you - on the other side of the world - guess correctly, the astral realm exists.
Would this be proof enough for the original poster ?
Or is this just a lucky guess.

Originally Posted by TiredPhil

So according to your input.
If I hide an object in my garden, then you - on the other side of the world - guess correctly, the astral realm exists.
Would this be proof enough for the original poster ?
Or is this just a lucky guess.

For me that would demonstrate knowledge at a distance, but would not tell us anything about the existence of an astral realm. I'm already completely convinced about knowledge at a distance, but have no knowledge of anything astral.

By way of analogy, in former times, non-visible light was thought by many to be 'astral'. Demonstrating the existence of non-visible light did not demonstrate anything about other realms.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

For me that would demonstrate knowledge at a distance, but would not tell us anything about the existence of an astral realm. I'm already completely convinced about knowledge at a distance, but have no knowledge of anything astral.

By way of analogy, in former times, non-visible light was thought by many to be 'astral'. Demonstrating the existence of non-visible light did not demonstrate anything about other realms.

Hypothetical situation
So, tonight I go into the Astral Plane for real.
What piece of information could I bring back that would prove to you the Astral Plane exists.

Originally Posted by TiredPhil

Hypothetical situation
So, tonight I go into the Astral Plane for real.
What piece of information could I bring back that would prove to you the Astral Plane exists.

Some kind of result that aids understanding of what the astral plane actually is. I have no idea what that might be. Remote viewing or accurate premonition doesn't do that, unless the result has some peculiar characteristic that sheds new light on how it works. Ask for help I guess.

About 6 months ago it was suggested to me in a dream that I should think about why my impression from the narrator isn't time reversed, and that this would aid my understanding of 'astral'. Not knowing what else to do about that, I thought about why an image is reversed in a mirror, since the astral plane is said to be a mirror of the physical plane and also of the 'thought' plane. The result of my thinking about that is I now understand that objects aren't actually reversed by a mirror. (The print on a book, for example, is reversed because you turn the book around to face the mirror. Its reversed because you turned it around, not by the mirror. If the words are printed on a transparent piece of plastic and you hold that up, then they look exactly the same in the mirror as they do to you.) So now I'm marginally less stupid about mirrors, but as far as I know I don't understand the 'astral plane' any better.

Originally Posted by TiredPhil

Hypothetical situation
So, tonight I go into the Astral Plane for real.
What piece of information could I bring back that would prove to you the Astral Plane exists.

Sorry, I took that as two different statements, with hypothetical situation referring to earlier statements and the 'So' being the start of a new thought. Now that I understand that you don't claim to astral travel, what I said totally doesn't apply to you, so I apologize.

I don't see how I'm fixed in my beliefs about the astral plane, or what we would be changing my mind about. It may be unreal as conceived of by believers, or remarkably like what they believe, I can't tell based on my experience. And I really did answer the question. I thought you were saying that you would travel to the astral plane, so I really was suggesting that you 'ask for help' on what kind of information to try to get. That's what I do in other similar situations. Its hard for me to know what kind of question to ask about something that I know so little about.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Sorry, I took that as two different statements, with hypothetical situation referring to earlier statements and the 'So' being the start of a new thought. Now that I understand that you don't claim to astral travel, what I said totally doesn't apply to you, so I apologize.

I don't see how I'm fixed in my beliefs about the astral plane, or what we would be changing my mind about. It may be unreal as conceived of by believers, or remarkably like what they believe, I can't tell based on my experience. And I really did answer the question. I thought you were saying that you would travel to the astral plane, so I really was suggesting that you 'ask for help' on what kind of information to try to get. That's what I do in other similar situations. Its hard for me to know what kind of question to ask about something that I know so little about.

My grammar can be a little messed up, even at the best of times, so no need to apologise.

Now back to my question, but put in another format.

If I enter a dream state tonight, then come to visit you. I show you a random location on the planet. I give you information you could never guess.
Then the next day I send you this information over the internet.
What does this prove ?

It does not prove the Astral Plane exists
It does not prove I am psychic.
It does not prove you are telepathic

It only proves information can be passed over long distances by the human mind.
If a person wants to put a label on the event, that is their choice.
Calling the visit 'Astral' would be the choice of a person believing in the astral plane.
In fact, a dozen people all from different backgrounds would probably come up with a dozen different names.
When this thread was started, I was not in agreement with many members opinions, but now I have done a 180 degree turn.
Until we can put an agreed label on what the astral plane is, or is not, everyones definition is right.
This has been a great topic to participate in, and I think I am a little wiser for it.
Thanks again,
Phil

Originally Posted by TiredPhil

So according to your input.
If I hide an object in my garden, then you - on the other side of the world - guess correctly, the astral realm exists.
Would this be proof enough for the original poster ?
Or is this just a lucky guess.

It would be enough to demonstrate psychic phenomena and get 1 million dollars offered by the James Randi Foundation.

And yes, it would be enough evidence for me.

Originally Posted by Empedocles

It would be enough to demonstrate psychic phenomena and get 1 million dollars offered by the James Randi Foundation.

And yes, it would be enough evidence for me.

Actually that's not even remotely good enough to satisfy the requirements for the Randi challenge, if you read the fine print.

If you want evidence of paranormal phenomena we could try sharing something in a dream. I've had about a 30% success rate with this with people on Dreamviews. I'll send a private message later.

I'm not ignoring your other post, I'm still at work and will read it later.