Trying To Understand What This Is

**Elle** · 09-17-2013 12:16 PM

Hi all. I'm new here. I joined because I'm trying to understand these experiences I have during sleep. I would love to have a name for it so that I can read more about it. I'm wondering if anyone here can relate to any of this or knows what it is. This post will probably be a little long, but I would so appreciate it if you could read through it and give me any ideas. I've been dealing with this for a few years now and have really been hoping to get some answers.

I've basically been having what I call sleep meetings. There is one person in particular - an old friend who I haven't spoken with for several years now, but was very close with for many years prior - who I seem to meet up with during sleep. Well, the friend and on two occasions, his wife, who I don't know and have never met in waking life. These are not dreams. I have dreams about this old friend once in a while and even if they are vivid or intense, I know they're just dreams, but this other thing that happens is definitely different. Every time it happens, it begins with a feeling that I've been abruptly pulled, or have otherwise abruptly landed at wherever this happens to be taking place. The entire feeling of it is different. Often times, I get information from him that is true in real life, that I couldn't otherwise know. For example, in these "sleep meetings" I have learned about the pregnancies and births of both of his children (and the name and gender of the most recent one), and his wedding. While awake, other big life events have come up (engagement, his mother's illness, and then her death). So, it seems like, in general, there's a sort of psychic connection there, which I would love to understand too, but the things that happen during sleep are what really puzzle me. We don't have any friends in common and live about 3,000 miles apart. In order for me to verify that this stuff was real, I had to do a bit of facebook creeping (I'm not proud of it lol, don't judge me. I did it because this happened so frequently and created such strong reactions for me that I was afraid I was having some kind of psychological problem and needed to find out if this information was even true or not). The facebook page is private except for the profile pictures and their comments, so it's not even like I could have seen comments on a wall that suggested that those events were happening, however subtle. I verified everything after the fact and only in this way, but it was all true.

Not all of the meetings are like that though; not all of them come with information. Sometimes, they're just hang outs, which are usually more fun. The first one I had with the friend's wife was crazy. Again, there was the feeling of being yanked into some space. It was a park. She was there, waiting for me; she was really kind and welcoming. It seemed like she knew where we were and as we walked around together, she seemed to be the one sort of guiding the whole thing. I saw a bunch of landmarks, things I had never seen before - a river so big that I thought at first that it was a lake. I saw a really odd looking bridge. We sat at a picnic table among some younger trees and off in the distance, almost in my peripheral view, I saw some small, wooden structure that I couldn't totally process, but reminded me of a group of small, old buildings, but I knew that wasn't what they were. When I asked her where we were, she said "Kennewick." When I woke up, I googled it and found that it's a real city in WA. When I zoomed in on the map, I saw a park on a huge river (Columbia Park on the Columbia River). A google image search found that crazy looking bridge (the Blue Bridge), the same exact view of the river that I'd just seen in that "dream", a picture of the picnic table area I'd just sat in with the young trees, and then a picture that made me laugh. The wooden structure in the distance that I couldn't quite process...it was a playground-type structure, made of wood, had a bunch of little towers in it (like small, wooden buildings). It was right there, all the stuff I had just seen, that I had never seen prior to that "dream"...I'd never heard of Kennewick, WA, or Columbia Park, or the Columbia River, or the Blue Bridge. That was a weird one.

There was one instance where, during the night, there was a "sleep meeting" that was just fun and laid back. No information was involved, no showing up in places that I had never known about, but that are real - just hanging out. And then the next time I slept, I showed up somewhere to meet him again, like we had planned it, and he wasn't there. It made sense because it wasn't a normal sleep time...I was napping in the early evening. All sorts of weird things have happened with this.

Things that are often or always true in these "sleep meetings" are that most or all of the communication seems telepathic. There are times when he will be speaking with his mouth, but I can't pay attention enough to understand (it definitely happened that way with his wife in the Kennewick incident). Even when that's true, I wake up with the information that he gave me. So for example, when we had the sleep meeting where he told me that they were about to have a daughter named Emma, I wasn't getting that information from his speaking (the speaking is like background noise - it's there but you tune it out). It was as if that's not how he actually communicated with me and that's definitely not how I communicated to him. I can't help getting the distinct feeling that when there is actual speaking going on in these things, it's because we have an instinct to use our mouth to communicate, so we move our mouths, but we're really communicating through thought. Very often, nobody moves their mouths and all or most of the communication is done telepathically. The other thing that happens a lot (again, this was true in the Kennewick situation) is that I spend a lot of time looking around, wondering where the heck we're at and how the heck I got there. Not every time, but often enough that I figure it might be worth mentioning.

I sometimes loosely call this astral projection, but any time I've read about astral projection, it doesn't sound the same. People talk about seeing astral bodies, being out in space, sometimes seeing other people doing astral projection. I haven't experienced any of that, it's just that I get the sense that maybe I'm leaving my body when this happens. I definitely have an overwhelming feeling that I *go* somewhere for this, and that he (or occasionally, she, the wife) goes somewhere too; that we are literally meeting up. I don't think this is lucid dreaming (not as I understand it anyway). I don't intend for any of this to happen. There's no flying or any of that. I don't plan for what happens next in these experiences. I don't feel like I have any control over it at all. I can't make it happen on the rare occasion that I want it to. I never know when it's going to happen. I don't feel like I have control over what happens next while it's actually happening. I don't even feel like I have control over when it ends. It doesn't bother me because nothing bad ever happens and there's never a bad feeling, but it's not something that I seem to have any control over whatsoever. The only other times I've seemed to have meeting-type experiences with people during sleep have been with two relatives - one at the time of his death, and the other, just shortly after her death. So, again, this feels spiritual, or like the soul is involved moreso than the mind.

So, can anyone relate to this? Or have you heard of it or know what it's called? Any clue why it's happening? I would appreciate any input. Thanks so much!

**BarefootDreamer** · 10-04-2013 10:19 AM

Hi Elle, sorry I have had no experiences similar to yours. Maybe you could try reading some of the threads about shared dreaming, and chatting to some people who have done that?

**shadowofwind** · 10-05-2013 06:02 AM

Elle,

For me, the sense of "going somewhere" corresponds to a shift in where my experience is, where the attention of my feeling is. Its almost a tautology to say it. I don't think there's anything physically moving. I think when people 'astral project', they're doing this, but they don't know how to think about what they're doing in a true way, so they represent it to themselves as the movement of a spiritual body. Your description seems more direct to me.

It seems to me that you're too attached to your friend, that its unhealthy for you, and maybe a little bit for him. I don't mean that as a criticism, as if its something you would have been able to change, or as if you're worse than other people who don't have that particular problem. I think its hard because there's something you need that you don't get enough of in your everyday human interactions, and you're doing the best you can to feed yourself, so to speak. But I think that if you can eventually find a way to integrate this part of who you are more directly into your life, that will be much better for you. I don't have the complete solution for myself, much less for you, I'm just saying something of how it seems to me based on my experience.

I don't think your lack of control over these experiences is entirely avoidable. Its sort of like surfing. You can learn to guide where you go a little bit by making small adjustments to who you want to be and the kinds of questions you ask, but you can't force the waves to go where you want them to. You don't have that kind of power, its bigger than you. Its possible to dialogue with it though, while trusting it to be what it is and do what it does.

As for why its happening....As I suggested, it seems to me that you crave something intangible that you get from your friend, and there doesn't seem to be any other way to get it. I think that as you explore that part of yourself though, this issue gradually gets better. I think to some extent your friend is actually a symbol for a part of yourself, sort of. Symbol isn't quite adequate as a word. There's something that he embodies, that he's a particular expression of, which has as much to do with you and with a lot of other people as it does with him.

I have to go. I hope that helps a little.

**Elle** · 10-10-2013 06:32 PM

Thanks for that insight, Shadowofwind. I hear what you're saying and understand that you don't mean it as a criticism. And I appreciate your perspective, but just don't agree. I don't feel like I get anything out of the fact that this is happening with this particular person. I stopped speaking to him several years ago by choice, because I as I changed, I could no longer have much respect for who he was or appreciate what he brought (or didn't) to my life. I barely felt a loss from it, even though I had known him for so long and been very close to him for quite some time. After all was said and done, I didn't miss him, didn't think the whole thing over much - I felt indifferent about him as a person and still do. No anger, no sadness, no coulda, woulda, shoulda, no mushy feelings about my old friend - nothing. There are other old friendships and connections that mean more to me, that were either better or worse, that I have stronger feelings about now. He barely even registered on my radar before this started happening. To even think of him as a dream symbol would be difficult because I can't imagine what he would represent...him, as opposed to others who could represent similar things but in a stronger or more concrete way. See what I mean? And if I wasn't coming away from most of these experiences with real life information...that's why it feels more like "travel" (in whatever capacity) as opposed to, say, dreaming.

I can connect to the first paragraph in your reply though. It *feels* like going somewhere, but I agree that doesn't mean that any part of me is actually moving about. It's easiest to explain it that way because it's closest to what's true when I try to describe it. I'm not dead set on any particular belief where that part of it is concerned. I feel strongly that it has to do with energy connecting, which can happen on who knows how many levels, or what that would look like if we could physically see it or draw it on paper. I just mean to say that it is a connecting rather than pictures my brain dreamed up while it had more freedom to do that because I'm asleep.

**Elle** · 10-10-2013 06:34 PM

I have read through it and can relate to it some, but in some ways, I can't. People talk about it like they plan it and they go and do fun things together. I guess that doesn't mean it's not the same thing, there just seems to be an agreement about it, which isn't happening here. Maybe that's not required.

**Elle** · 10-10-2013 07:05 PM

I have a hard time articulating anything about this other than visuals and words "spoken" because...I don't even know how exactly to articulate the reason lol. More accurate than what I said before (at the end, about movement, travel, energy) would be that it feels like movement because it doesn't feel like it's my intention that's controlling the environment, what I see, where we go, and it doesn't feel like it's just *my* energy that's present. It literally feels like being pulled to whatever "place" we arrive at (and there has been at least one real place - Kennewick), and like it's being controlled by his (or her) decisions. Different from a dream where it just happening to you or you are making decisions, even if you don't like how they turn out. It feels like someone giving you a tour of a place you've never been. If you went on your own to such a place, you'd decide what to look at and whether to turn right or left, but that wouldn't be true if a tour guide was leading you. Same kind of vibe. And even that doesn't explain it quite right.

Am I right to assume that you experience something similar? It seems that way by your response. If so, how do you explain it to yourself? I mean, I get what you already said about it but, to you, what is happening and why?

**shadowofwind** · 10-12-2013 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by Elle

I have read through it and can relate to it some, but in some ways, I can't. People talk about it like they plan it and they go and do fun things together. I guess that doesn't mean it's not the same thing, there just seems to be an agreement about it, which isn't happening here. Maybe that's not required.

The only 'shared dreaming' that I know is like what you describe. The person feels the other person and projects the dream imagery based on what they feel. The other person, if they're conscious of the interaction, projects dream imagery. There may be enough in common between the two dreams to demonstrate that the experience is real. But its not a matter of two people being in a common sensate environment. Furthermore, its not necessary for the two dreams to happen at the same time. The connection that creates the experience transcends time somewhat. As far as I know, there's no reason at all for such dreams to occur simultaneously except the expectation of the dreamers. Physical proximity doesn't seem to matter either.

I don't know about the other experiences you read. Maybe some of that stuff is embellished, or maybe the dreamers haven't been careful about objectively distinguishing between what is shared telepathetically and what is a common expectation of both dreamers. No people who report shared dreaming in that other way have explored these questions in depth in discussion here that I've seen. Other people who have participated in that type of discussion generally seem to have experienced it more like I have or not at all.

I typically have these kinds of dreams the night before I meet a new person, either face to face or on the internet. Imagery in the dream seems to be drawn from past and future memories with about equal frequency. So there is a precognitive element also. I think I probably also have this kind of dream with past acquintences also, though its more difficult to verify that the experience is 'real', since I can't verify whether the content is just speculation and my own memory, since our interaction was in the past.

There is a third mind, so to speak, involved in the creation of the dream. It is subconscious, and contains elements of the minds of both dreamers, as well as other people. This common mind isn't universal, its somewhat individual and somewhat shared, like one small branch on a big tree. The nature of your interest in the other person, and their interest in you, helps determine the identity of this common mind, and the content of the dream.

I still think you're subconsciously attached to your former friend, even if you don't experience that consciously. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how it looks to me, and what I feel. In my experience, it doesn't take a very strong desire to create a dream like this, but it always involves some kind of interest on both sides, even if that inte4est has different aims. I think that there's another element to this though. Your screen name Elle was the same as the screen name of my former girlfriend. Later I lived in Ohio with my wife and kids and she lived by herself on the west coast, which is similar to but opposite of your situation. Some of the thoughts between her and I must be similar to the thoughts between you and your former friend. I don't think you and her having the same screen name is a random coincidence. Your personalities seem similar too, to the extent that I wonder if you're the same person. But the names and places you give are different.

assuming the names and locations you use are the real ones, and not changed to protect the privacy of the people involved, this is far from the first time that experiences relevant to my life have been brought to me via the dreams or intuitions of a stranger. Its like I'm being stalked by a fate that has allies everywhere. If this were the first time something like this has happened, I would assume it to be a random coincidence. But other examples have been a lot more objectively compelling than this one, so now I don't doubt what I feel as much. In any case, this is a partial explanation for your dream. To some extent it doesn't have anything to do with you. But there has to be at least some relevance to your thoughts and feelings also I think, or your mind wouldn't allow it to happen. I think there should be something you can learn or gain from it in any case, even if the experience really is irrelevant to your feelings about your friend.

I would like to prove this phenomena in some kind of scientific study if I could, because it flies in the face of modern scientific dogma about how the world works. Its impossible within the scope of what we 'know' about nature. And I think it happens to me regularly enough that I can prove it with a bunch of volunteers, though I can't be sure since I don't actually control it. There don't seem to be any credentialed people studying this sort of thing currently though.

anyway, thanks for your time in thinking and posting about this.

I'm at the airport, and may not reply for a couple of days if you respond this weekend.

**Elle** · 10-12-2013 09:39 AM

Shadowofwind, I can relate to this in such a way that it makes me want to scream: "It's like I'm being stalked by a fate that has allies everywhere." I feel that like crazy.

No names or locations have been changed. Elle is actually the last half of my first name (which begins with an R, not an M). All the locations are just as described. I know I'm not the person you're talking about because you can't be the person I'm talking about: he's not open minded enough to be in a place like this. lol. He also lives in Canada. It's weird (good weird) to find someone who understands this that much though.

I love what you said about a third mind and a small branch on a large tree. Same for your explanation about shared dreaming. I think a lot of possibilities are simultaneously true (or just possible0, and some of the responses here make me feel like the blanks are being filled, if that makes sense. It's a relief, so, thank you.

I sometimes feel like these experiences have created a new or continued (and definitely different) connection with the friend, instead of the reverse being true. When this happens, I am totally consumed by it for days, and it's very uncomfortable, even if the experiences themselves aren't. Without these experiences, I feel nothing and forget that he exists. There's so much that happens during waking life too. I knew the second child would be a daughter and what her name would be because of these things that happen during sleep. I knew when the daughter was actually born because for the entire day, I felt him feeling that level of love and joy. I was so overwhelmed by it that I cried several times throughout the day (not for being upset, but overwhelmed by amazing feelings that didn't belong to me).

Part of the reason I say it feels more spiritual than mental is because of what I feel for him (and his wife!) during the sleep experiences. A certain kind of love that I haven't felt otherwise. The words that come to me when I explain it to myself are "my soul knows your soul, my soul loves your soul", but if that's not real-world enough, it could maybe be compared to the way we all love babies. You don't want anything, you don't need anything, there's no history, there's no motivation, there's no reward, there's no real-world garbage that makes us put our walls up, so we just love them in a pure, joyful way. Same thing here, and like I said, even with the wife, who I have never met, but can't help believing based on these weird couple of experiences that she's a wonderful person. In waking life, I just...even if I want to feel any kind of feeling about him, I just don't, which is weird! I've tried to really explore it to see if I've got left over anger for anything that ever happened in the past. I've tried to see if there's love of any kind. Desire to be friends? Need for closure? Questions? Regret? Loose ends of any sort? None of the above. It's like things are happening on two separate planes of existence. This is the stuff that I want to understand so much, but never will. Do you feel any of that in your situation?

Interesting what you said about the imagery and where it comes from. Do you ever feel like you're not the one who creates it? I've only seen imagery that comes from me twice; the rest of it was...maybe from him?

What is your story with the ex, if you don't mind me asking?

Enjoy your trip.

**shadowofwind** · 10-15-2013 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by Elle

Do you feel any of that in your situation?

Like I said, I have these kinds of experiences with people who I am about to meet, and to some extent with past acquaintances who I am attached to. For me there isn't any big mystery about why I am thinking about them, its pretty clear that I'm attached, and I want the feeling of love or friendship that I experienced before. I do this with both men and women. I don't think about them for long periods of time because there's nothing to think about, but the attachment is still there.

Originally Posted by Elle

Interesting what you said about the imagery and where it comes from. Do you ever feel like you're not the one who creates it? I've only seen imagery that comes from me twice; the rest of it was...maybe from him?

In the past there was a 'muse' that exhibited something like an independent will and intelligence. The dreams were very well designed. Now that is mostly gone, and the dreams are less lucid and show less evidence of careful planning. The story behind the imagery is sort of a hybrid between my thought and the other person. But the images that are used to tell the story are mostly from my mind. The 'muse' doesn't communicate by articulating its own thoughts so much as by organizing mine, collage-like.

Originally Posted by Elle

What is your story with the ex, if you don't mind me asking?

There isn't much of a story. She is ten years older than me, and didn't want to marry or have kids. I don't think we were ever 'in love' in a romantic sense, or sexually attracted to each other either, it was more like a family relationship. She had a romance with someone else, so I left, then after it ran its course I came back. Eventually I left, with her agreement, because I got tired of being not really in a relationship and not free of it either, and I wanted a more affectionate relationship. After I left she missed me and wanted me to come back. It seemed best to me if I didn't. Then I got married and stayed out of touch because my wife would not have been comfortable with it, and maybe staying in touch might be unhealthy for other reasons also. I felt guilty, because it is not my nature to want to turn my back on anyone. And I would miss her some anyway apart from that.

In my wife's way of looking at things, you're devoted to your partner 100%, and there isn't any other kind of love-like relationship with someone that makes any sense. So she would tend to look at any former woman friend as either a potential rival, or else as a relationship that's not appropriate. I can't say that I'm very attached to 'Elle' though, there are a half dozen other people who I have been more attached to. Of course its a bit different in each case so its not possible to rank relationships by strength or significance.