Thread: Sony declares psychic phenomena real

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Someday perhaps your delusion will crack and you will see that what you think of as delusion is nothing but reality.

Spoken like a true delusional.
"It's not me that's mad... it's everyone else"

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Spoken like a true delusional.
"It's not me that's mad... it's everyone else"

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

No, see, you are the one that has to prove the abilities - not us.

...

I know you are trying to save face, but truly, do not try to project the issue. I honestly just believe you are delusional. Once you can find a means to prove otherwise, I am all ears to it. However, in the meantime, all that has happened is you made a claim and offered no incentive to believe it other than our own will to believe it. Be reasonable and insightful.

~

No, see, you are the one that has to prove that someone is delusional. this is what we call science and psych and whatnot (the explanations and interpretations of reality). it's like this; someone says something crazy, then you say why it's crazy, because you know what crazy is and what is not. you wouldn't expect a crazy person to address their own delusion in reasonable terms, that'd be silly (and crazy).

i'll repeat; don't call someone crazy (it's a bad word, trust me) unless you can back it up.

now i'm not saying this is any different from any other delusion, i'm just saying you have no possible idea or basis to make the claim that it is not. people who can make such claims are those who study and experiment, or at the very least devote time to properly address an individual.

in conclusion, your attempt to discredit a potentially delusional person in a forum (beyond dreaming) devoted to things often labeled as delusional, has shown your own delusion (though not as potentially severe as what you denounce). this also shows your complete lack of information on people who have experienced this and other types of delusion. but maybe you just think that you are helping people see what is real. if that's the case, go outside and devote your efforts to more serious and widespread problems, and let the little crazy people talk without fear of being put down by your mighty reasoning skills.

don't jump to conclusions and think that you are being reasonable or insightful. always approach with caution and the minimum of pride.

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

No, see, you are the one that has to prove that someone is delusional. this is what we call science and psych and whatnot (the explanations and interpretations of reality). it's like this; someone says something crazy, then you say why it's crazy, because you know what crazy is and what is not. you wouldn't expect a crazy person to address their own delusion in reasonable terms, that'd be silly (and crazy).

i'll repeat; don't call someone crazy (it's a bad word, trust me) unless you can back it up.

This is really easy to demonstrate to you. Considering you are obviously too ignorant and neglectful to read, I will say it again;

I think he is lying and delusional - he cannot prove me wrong or give any incentive to believe otherwise. QED.

What exactly do I have to prove here?

now i'm not saying this is any different from any other delusion, i'm just saying you have no possible idea or basis to make the claim that it is not. people who can make such claims are those who study and experiment, or at the very least devote time to properly address an individual.

in conclusion, your attempt to discredit a potentially delusional person in a forum (beyond dreaming) devoted to things often labeled as delusional, has shown your own delusion (though not as potentially severe as what you denounce). this also shows your complete lack of information on people who have experienced this and other types of delusion. but maybe you just think that you are helping people see what is real. if that's the case, go outside and devote your efforts to more serious and widespread problems, and let the little crazy people talk without fear of being put down by your mighty reasoning skills.

don't jump to conclusions and think that you are being reasonable or insightful. always approach with caution and the minimum of pride.

This is the most convoluted rationalization I have heard in a while.

I am disreciditing him - I simply think he is lying or delusional. He cannot show otherwise or give any other incentive - so why should I believe otherwise?

I can only assume that the only reason you are actually backing him up is because you are pre-disposed and believe in it yourself as there is no other given reason to believe it.

If I am lacking information on these people, it is only because they completely fail to give it. As I have said, there is no given reason to believe these assertions.

I am a God. I cannot prove it to you. Are you going to believe me? You can't prove me wrong either. By your logic, that means I am God.

Nay? I look forward to more desperate rationalizations.

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

This is really easy to demonstrate to you. Considering you are obviously too ignorant and neglectful to read, I will say it again;

I think he is lying and delusional - he cannot prove me wrong or give any incentive to believe otherwise. QED.

What exactly do I have to prove here?

you have to prove that someone is delusional (i thought we went over this already) if you want to call them delusional/crazy. that's how it works. i've read your attempts, but this is really a very weak argument. it's like if i went around claiming all religious people are delusional for believing in god, maybe true, but unfair and just as likely wrong.

Originally Posted by O'nus

This is the most convoluted rationalization I have heard in a while.

I am disreciditing him - I simply think he is lying or delusional. He cannot show otherwise or give any other incentive - so why should I believe otherwise?

you are completely delusional O'nus, but yet i'll let you spill your delusional talk in an attempt to convince me through logic and reason. unless that doesn't make any sense (seeing as though you are delusional). you know what, forget it. not only are you delusional, but i can't reasonably expect you to defend your stance. anything you have to say is already completely discredited because you have no basis in reality. to reiterate; you are unable to present a clear argument due to your sad condition. and you can't convince me otherwise, only your doctor can. that was both easy and fun!

Originally Posted by O'nus

I can only assume that the only reason you are actually backing him up is because you are pre-disposed and believe in it yourself as there is no other given reason to believe it.

do you often find yourself assuming things without any real basis for doing so? interesting. perhaps if you think real hard maybe you'll find some other reason why i might be 'backing him up'. i believe in you O'nus (kind of, i believe you are delusional).

Originally Posted by O'nus

If I am lacking information on these people, it is only because they completely fail to give it. As I have said, there is no given reason to believe these assertions.

do you often find yourself blaming other people for your problems? hrm...maybe if you tried really hard you could find some testimonials, backgrounds, and Real Life Stories! or maybe you could try asking them! that'd be great. let me know if you find anything. and don't worry, no one here is trying to make you believe anything. relax, you're the one who came here, remember? maybe you don't, that's okay too.

Originally Posted by O'nus

I am a God. I cannot prove it to you. Are you going to believe me? You can't prove me wrong either. By your logic, that means I am God.~

no, i'm not going to believe anything you say actually. but nor am i going to put you down when you speak your mind. well, maybe i will if you want to.

i do really think that puts the final nails on your delusional coffin. but maybe not! if you mean 'I am a god' in the religious sense that we are all sons of god, or some 'jesus is inside all of us' stuff, then i'd have to accept your delusion, seeing as though it is so widespread and accepted already. better yet, if you mean that you are a god in the sense that you are the most evolved organism in this planet and a true creator of things, i might call you sane again.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Nay? I look forward to more desperate rationalizations.

me too. that is, until the mods show up.

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

you have to prove that someone is delusional (i thought we went over this already) if you want to call them delusional/crazy. that's how it works. i've read your attempts, but this is really a very weak argument. it's like if i went around claiming all religious people are delusional for believing in god, maybe true, but unfair and just as likely wrong.

You clearly do not understand what delusional means then. Delusional means that someone is experiencing something that is either not real or that they truly believe a fantasy. This person cannot demonstrate these capabilities or experiences beyond their own say, thus, there is no incentive to believe their recounts than other a lie or delusions. If it were true, there would be a means to reproduce it or demonstrate it. As there is none, he is either a liar or delusional.

you are completely delusional O'nus, but yet i'll let you spill your delusional talk in an attempt to convince me through logic and reason. unless that doesn't make any sense (seeing as though you are delusional). you know what, forget it. not only are you delusional, but i can't reasonably expect you to defend your stance. anything you have to say is already completely discredited because you have no basis in reality. to reiterate; you are unable to present a clear argument due to your sad condition. and you can't convince me otherwise, only your doctor can. that was both easy and fun!

You are just stupid. You are desperately trying to rationalize this silly argument by projecting the delusion onto me. This is like a liar accusing the accuser of lying. Quit grabbing for straws, it's pathetic.

do you often find yourself assuming things without any real basis for doing so? interesting. perhaps if you think real hard maybe you'll find some other reason why i might be 'backing him up'. i believe in you O'nus (kind of, i believe you are delusional).

This is pathetic. I am making no assumptions at all as I have not been given any incentive to believe anything. All you are doing is defending something that you cannot even reproduce or offer any incentive to believe in.

There is no incentive, proof, reason, logic, nothing - there is no reason to believe any of it.

do you often find yourself blaming other people for your problems? hrm...maybe if you tried really hard you could find some testimonials, backgrounds, and Real Life Stories! or maybe you could try asking them! that'd be great. let me know if you find anything. and don't worry, no one here is trying to make you believe anything. relax, you're the one who came here, remember? maybe you don't, that's okay too.

You truly think I am ignorant to the insurmountable people that claim to be psychic? Have you really been reading my posts at all or are you really just that stupid? Please go re-read them and you will see that what you are saying is not applicable.

no, i'm not going to believe anything you say actually. but nor am i going to put you down when you speak your mind. well, maybe i will if you want to.

Okay.

I am a God. I believe you are a liar about these psychic abilities - you cannot prove me wrong. What's the problem here?

i do really think that puts the final nails on your delusional coffin. but maybe not! if you mean 'I am a god' in the religious sense that we are all sons of god, or some 'jesus is inside all of us' stuff, then i'd have to accept your delusion, seeing as though it is so widespread and accepted already. better yet, if you mean that you are a god in the sense that you are the most evolved organism in this planet and a true creator of things, i might call you sane again.

No, I am not playing semantics. You can't even understand my counter-argument. Please try to re-examine it and realize how it parallel's the discussion instead of desperately trying to insult me.

me too. that is, until the mods show up.

I am a mod you tool. Wow, you are blind.

~

first off, im greatly enjoying this...let's continue...

Originally Posted by O'nus

You clearly do not understand what delusional means then. Delusional means that someone is experiencing something that is either not real or that they truly believe a fantasy. This person cannot demonstrate these capabilities or experiences beyond their own say, thus, there is no incentive to believe their recounts than other a lie or delusions. If it were true, there would be a means to reproduce it or demonstrate it. As there is none, he is either a liar or delusional.~

like my example of religion, but apparently you can't see why that is a weak and unfair argument (for being too vague, black&white), not to mention the flawed reasoning you give ('as there is none, he is either a liar or delusional'), but i still think you are delusional yourself, so i'll let you slide. i'll make it easy; you make a claim (like the original poster) and so you must back it up. you call someone delusional, so you must prove it.

see? there is an entire system of laws and institutions devoted to proving someone is something, it's not the other way around. you were fine with your disagreements, and i would not have bothered to post, until you made the outrageous claim that DC is delusional. luckily you have no say in the matter, nor do you know much about it, that's what the professionals are for.

Originally Posted by O'nus

You are just stupid. You are desperately trying to rationalize this silly argument by projecting the delusion onto me. This is like a liar accusing the accuser of lying. Quit grabbing for straws, it's pathetic.~

yea, i remember that too, only different. see, in fact i was trying to project the delusion onto you, but for reasons that you can't see. it was a deliberate effort to show you something, and it has worked better than i could have imagined (and im quite imaginative). and no, im not desperate, i love this.

Originally Posted by O'nus

This is pathetic. I am making no assumptions at all as I have not been given any incentive to believe anything. All you are doing is defending something that you cannot even reproduce or offer any incentive to believe in.~

you did make one assumption, it's the quote that i neatly put in (from you) right before i said that. i'll do it again;

Originally Posted by O'nus

I can only assume that the only reason you are actually backing him up is because you are pre-disposed and believe in it yourself as there is no other given reason to believe it.~

and no, im not defending anything nor anyone, im just using your own standards to claim that you are delusional yourself. and I'll let your flawed logic slide again on this one, seeing as though i believe you are delusional and thus not very reliable when it comes to forming reasonable thoughts.

Originally Posted by O'nus

There is no incentive, proof, reason, logic, nothing - there is no reason to believe any of it.~

you must be an atheist, or a very delusional religious person.

Originally Posted by O'nus

You truly think I am ignorant to the insurmountable people that claim to be psychic? Have you really been reading my posts at all or are you really just that stupid? Please go re-read them and you will see that what you are saying is not applicable.~

no, i don't think you are ignorant. but you have called me both ignorant and stupid. don't worry tho, im not offended. i actually love that part too.

Originally Posted by O'nus

No, I am not playing semantics. You can't even understand my counter-argument. Please try to re-examine it and realize how it parallel's the discussion instead of desperately trying to insult me.~

i wasn't trying to insult you, unless you think calling you delusional is insulting, then yes.

i'll reiterate; you claim that someone is delusional, you must back this up or withdraw from the claim. that's how the system works, it has been like this for a long time here in the civilized world. and please, don't bring up the 'he can't prove it so he's a liar or crazy' stuff, cause you'd be relegating entire nations to the mad house under that standard, and it would be the 'im not crazy, everyone else is crazy' all over again. ps; check your logic on that one, it's really (really) bad, or stay in your delusion (that would be more fun for me).

Originally Posted by O'nus

I am a mod you tool. Wow, you are blind.~

no wonder i like you so much. a tool, yes, the toolest of the tools, and you can use me up all you want. blind too, so you'd have to be my guide (and you're doing a fine job so far).

edit; i can't believe you wear that avatar and act this way at the same time, that's some funny stuff.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Explain to us then, why your claims of psychic powers are more valid than those of the many thousands of people in mental institutions across the world?

I don't think thats why people are in mental institutions. I think they probably have very serious mental problems.. The kind where you run into walls, can't communicate..

Congratulations on... another


AD HOMINEM ATTACK.

I don't need to respond to someone equating something such as Psychics with people who murder for fun..

Originally Posted by Onus

No, see, you are the one that has to prove the abilities - not us.

Why do I have to prove anything to you? To make you believe that it is true yes, but I have no reason to prove to you that I am not crazy. What the hell?

Originally Posted by Onus

The onus is on you to prove these abilities. Do not try to project the problem here. We are not making any claims or assertions - you are.

Wrong Onus, you are making a claim that I must be delusional.. Now the burden of proof is on you. The simple fact that Psychic visions are not proven is not enough, for if I had spouts of fainting without proof how do we know its not a delusion.

This is like saying we are delusional because we cannot see something of your imagination - which even you have agreed is just as believable to us as your psychic abilities.

Not at all like that, never said this.

I know you are trying to save face, but truly, do not try to project the issue.

Not trying to save anything actually, I understand that its currently impossible to prove to the world that this really happens. Especially when most of the world is so close-minded that they already have pre-conceived thoughts on this kind of "Weird" "nonsense" and "madness" Whether you are able to see it or not, you all have your own conclusions drawn, evidence for or against doesn't really matter. Until MIT or some school releases a study you will never believe. Which is commendable and respectable, but doesn't make you any more right than me. Just reliant on others.

Only a scientist in a lab coat can prove it to you, and I'm afraid I'm not that man. But that doesn't mean I'm delusional as I said, how do I know your not deluded yourself and unaware of the subtle facts of life. Please see the evil demon that controls everything!

I honestly just believe you are delusional.

Honestly I believe you are just delusional. (Blank statement with no proof)

Once you can find a means to prove otherwise, I am all ears to it

I must graduate from a school as a science major, and study myself for hours upon hours while testing right.. Because normal people from day to day go about studying themselves as such...

I don't need to prove to you that I am not delusional, you are making the claim that I am... So you must prove it.

However, in the meantime, all that has happened is you made a claim and offered no incentive to believe it other than our own will to believe it

And you made a counter-claim that I must be delusional or lying with no proof or reason to believe it to be.... Congratulations of being guilty of the same crime.

I don't expect you to believe me, I understand you need concrete proof.. I gave you my detailing of the story and that is all, I told you it happens multiple times.. That is all I can do.. I am not a scientist, I have not studied it under a microscope.. You ask for things people can't provide you, when you know they aren't their... But that doesn't prove I'm lying or delusional... If you had a seizure and had no proof, does that make it any less real? You keep ignoring that one.

Spoken like a true delusional.
"It's not me that's mad... it's everyone else"

Who are we to decide what is mad and what is sane, as long as it harms none... Do what ye will.

That is the creed we should all live by, I don't actually think your all "mad" or "crazy" I was being sarcastic, but of course you can't pick up on anything like that. You really take everything so serious, you must be a load of fun at a party... haha

You clearly do not understand what delusional means then. Delusional means that someone is experiencing something that is either not real or that they truly believe a fantasy. This person cannot demonstrate these capabilities or experiences beyond their own say, thus, there is no incentive to believe their recounts than other a lie or delusions. If it were true, there would be a means to reproduce it or demonstrate it. As there is none, he is either a liar or delusional

As you've said yourself lack of proof is not proof of anything. So you are crossing the line and assuming a lack of an ability to prove something means it must be a delusion. You don't have to believe that they really have seen the future but you still have no proof that they are delusional, because to prove that you are taking the place of someone who knows all the answers(when you don't).

Once again, someone has seizures and is unable to reproduce for doctors.. By your own logic, They must be delusional or lying.

Your methods are intelligent, but still flawed.. As are all of ours.

This is pathetic. I am making no assumptions at all as I have not been given any incentive to believe anything. All you are doing is defending something that you cannot even reproduce or offer any incentive to believe in.

There is no incentive, proof, reason, logic, nothing - there is no reason to believe any of it.

You are assuming that they must be delusional, even when you have no proof. I don't expect you to believe that they exist, but to cross the line and assume you must be delusional.. You must have proof, or you are doing what you are claiming to be against. A lack of proof or inability to prove does not mean it doesn't exist.

Otherwise hundreds of years ago, gravity didn't exist, the world was flat... Knowledge of how something works is inconsequential to it working..

( And to stop your reply, I know their is no reason to believe it, but you have no proof that it's a delusion)


Oh and I can't hold myself back any longer.

I am disreciditing him - I simply think he is lying or delusional. He cannot show otherwise or give any other incentive - so why should I believe otherwise?

How come you can make biased assumptions without evidence and others are not? (Your thought is nothing but that.. a thought) No one is making you believe anything, but how come a lack of proof is all of a sudden grounds for lying or delusion without you putting in any effort? No proof my friend.


AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHHAHHAHA I'll GET YOU MY PRETTIES AND YOUR LITTLE DOG TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





I'M MADDDDDDD!!!! FOAMING AT THE MOUTH


HOWL AT THEMOON!!!!!!!!! AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

If you make an extraordinary claim and fail to back it up with evidence and a logical reasoning, then everyone else can only conclude that you're either lying or delusional.

Dance around it all you want, but the burden of poof is still on you.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

If you make an extraordinary claim and fail to back it up with evidence and a logical reasoning, then everyone else can only conclude that you're either lying or delusional.

Dance around it all you want, but the burden of poof is still on you.

Who are you to decide what is extraordinary?

I'm curious, because it is nothing but your opinion.. This same argument could have been used by people that were pro-flat earth.. after all the burden of proof would have been on you and it would be viewed as an extraordinary claim.

My point, extraordinary is something that is judged by individuals and society and not proof that something is extraordinary just generally not accepted.


The saying you use is nothing but a trap where you become the ultimate decider of how reality must be.

Here is a better use of your argument..

If you make an claim and fail to back it up with evidence and a logical reasoning, then everyone else can only conclude that you're either lying or delusional.

So the same can be said of you, I assume your either lying or delusional. Because I have yet to see your proof of your claim that I must be lying or delusional, how come proof isn't needed for you but is for others?

I know the fact that you decide what is and isn't extraordinary.

Dance monkey, dance.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Dance monkey, dance.

Pointless post human being, pointless post.

Better yet...

Play that piano Kitty, play it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0zgQAp7EYw

I wonder, is it heavy?

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

I wonder, is it heavy?

Kind of like Uranium. We talking natural or?

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

If you make an extraordinary claim and fail to back it up with evidence and a logical reasoning, then everyone else can only conclude that you're either lying or delusional.

Dance around it all you want, but the burden of poof is still on you.

i like how you dance.

logic lesson #1;

claim with no proof leads to the claim being not true (either lying or delusional).

obviously this is wrong, to any sane person.

but maybe you meant; claim with no proof leads me to no logical choice but to see it as not true (either lying or delusional)

if you were aiming for that last one, scatterbrain, then you've already made the choice for billions of other people. and all this without the use of any logic or reason at all. i can easily claim you as delusional now.

the correct answer is; a claim with no proof leads to an unproven claim.

that doesn't mean i can't believe it (ie. god), it doesn't mean i have no choice but to dismiss it, nor does it make me delusional if i choose to entertain, or god forbid, have faith in the claim.

please please please, if you are going to claim to have some sense, logic, reason or whatever, please don't give me this nonsense instead, specially if you're using it to make fun of someone, it's really very sad.

welcome to the real world. and yes, it is scattered, go pick it back up.

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

i like how you dance.

logic lesson #1;

claim with no proof leads to the claim being not true (either lying or delusional).

obviously this is wrong, to any sane person.

but maybe you meant; claim with no proof leads me to no logical choice but to see it as not true (either lying or delusional)

if you were aiming for that last one, scatterbrain, then you've already made the choice for billions of other people. and all this without the use of any logic or reason at all. i can easily claim you as delusional now.

the correct answer is; a claim with no proof leads to an unproven claim.

that doesn't mean i can't believe it (ie. god), it doesn't mean i have no choice but to dismiss it, nor does it make me delusional if i choose to entertain, or god forbid, have faith in the claim.

welcome to the real world. and yes, it is scattered, go pick it back up.

Good points!

There is another way to look at it.
If i say "I have a green hat"
and you say "prove it"
I show you my green hat, or if the hat is unavailable, i'll try my best to demonstrate it in other ways, such as a photo of me wearing a green hat.
I don't say "prove to me I don't have a green hat" - like scatterbrain said, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

I would agree that a claim without proof = an unproven claim.
But i'd also say,
A claim with no proof, and the person who makes the claim refusing or unable to demonstrate proof, suggests something fishy is going on.

If someone has enough reason to make a claim, then surely they should be able to demonstrate how they reached their belief in the first place?
Wouldn't formulating a belief require something to convince you in the first place?

Generally if i have a green hat, i know how i got the green hat, what it looks like and where it is. I will probably also have other evidence that may not prove it, but suggests the claim im making is true: such as a recipt, a photo, reports from others who have seen my hat.

An unwillingness to provide proof suggests that there either is no proof, or that the person making the claim has no access to proof. The second point would raise a query as to why there is no access to the proof, and for most people, i think it should suggest that perhaps you should gather enough proof to substantiate your claim before sharing it with the world.
Nobody wants to look like they are lying or delusional, so why try to convince others of something with nothing to back up your statements?

If i myself had an experience that I believed to be of psychic origin, yet i had no evidence, I'd perhaps share my story, but also be clear that i have no proof to back up my claim, instead of insisting there is no other explanation, I'd appreciate others wanting to discuss openly (and critically) my experience, so that I could either find ways to gather evidence supporting my claim, or to reevaluate my experience in light of other possible explanations.

If a simpler explanation was put forward, and this simpler explanation either made more logical sense, or was able to be tested and provided an identical experience, I'd reevaluate my experience with this new evidence, and update my world view to include this more plausable explanation.
It may not actually be the correct explanation, but it would certainly be high on the list of possible causes.

I think when making claims that one cannot back up, one should make it clear that there isn't enough evidence to reach a satisfying conclusion to the origin of the experience. Then suggest my own theory, and be happy for that theory to be evaluated by others... even if it eventually leads to my theory being one of the less likely explanations.

I think that is a fair an honest way to approach any experience lacking in evidence, be it god, psychic powers or such like.

Absolute certainty is a hard thing to establish. But the probability of theories being correct is much easier to conclude. When a claim has no evidence forthcoming, or by its nature can have no evidence, then our only tools are logic and reasoning. We should put our feelings and beliefs aside and try to establish probable explanations and the probability of each explanation being the correct one.

Unfortunatly, many psychic or religious experiences contain strong emotional elements. Feelings like "this has to be true" or "I've never been so sure of something in my life". But a strong feeling or belief is not the same thing as a correct feeling or belief. This is easily seen in the many mental institutions of the world, where many poor people are utterly convinced that others can hear thier thoughts, or they are being experimented on by a secret society.

I think a good mental exercise, is to always try and use empathy when making a claim you cannot back up, try to imagine how you would react to another person making a similar claim without evidence. You too would want proof, you too would want something more than another persons witness statement. But also remember that different people have different thresholds for belief.
You may well see a light in the sky and immediatly think it is a UFO, another person, say a pilot, would perhaps be less willing to jump to that conclusion, because thier knowledge of lights in the sky is wider that your own. It would take a more unusual experience for the pilot to conclude UFO, than say, a science fiction fan.

first off spaceexplorer, sarcasm aside, you are a very sensible person and your logic is very sound. i won't quote the entire post as i think it's worth reading on it's own. just a few quotes;

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I don't say "prove to me I don't have a green hat"

if you are a mad hatter, then it is the doctor's job to prove (not to you, but to the system) that you indeed have no green hat. this is the same line of thinking that O'nus was pushing, but maybe now he sees how it doesn't work (ref to the D claim, not OP claim).

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I would agree that a claim without proof = an unproven claim.
But i'd also say,
A claim with no proof, and the person who makes the claim refusing or unable to demonstrate proof, suggests something fishy is going on.

i would suggest your assumptions and careful approach are well founded, but they are unable to directly impact the outcome of your conclusion.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

If someone has enough reason to make a claim, that surely they should be able to demonstrate how they reached their belief in the first place?
Wouldn't formulating a belief require something to convince you in the first place?

yes, in this particular case we are talking about some extraordinary experience, and this would satisfy our requirements for formulating a belief. it's either beyond the claimant's control or ability to reproduce it. from here you have the choice to dismiss the claim or to further explore the possibility without any basis on facts (but you cannot dismiss the individual entirely, on this alone).

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

...and for most people, i think it should suggest that perhaps you should gather enough proof to substantiate your claim before sharing it with the world.
Nobody wants to look like they are lying or delusional, so why try to convince others of something with nothing to back up your statements?

for people with no means or ability to test or prove their claims (and there are many, me included) there should be a forum to express and gather opinions, without the fear of being called delusional or a liar. not necessarily prove or disprove anything. but yes, in the outside world, your approach would be better.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

If a simpler explanation was put forward... I'd reevaluate my experience with this new evidence...

the hallmark, really. but when it comes to more extraordinary claims, this gets a little tricky.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I think when making claims that one cannot back up, one should make it clear that there isn't enough evidence to reach a satisfying conclusion to the origin of the experience.

i think when hearing claims that cannot be backed up, one should assume these things already, and respond accordingly.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I think that is a fair an honest way to approach any experience lacking in evidence, be it god, psychic powers or such like.

it sounds like it to me too.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

We should put our feelings and beliefs aside and try to establish probable explanations and the probability of each explanation being the correct one.

i agree in principle, but i don't think you could put feelings and beliefs aside entirely, but that's just me.


good show spacey, thanks.

Sorry to bump into the discussion about "proof" here, but who cares what Sony declares, really. Truth can't be declared, nor shared with those who can't see it. Who "declares" what is real?

I believe psychic powers are real, but I had to experience to be convinced. And that's always how we've really known things are real.

Originally Posted by Psylocibin

Sorry to bump into the discussion about "proof" here, but who cares what Sony declares, really. Truth can't be declared, nor shared with those who can't see it. Who "declares" what is real?

I believe psychic powers are real, but I had to experience to be convinced. And that's always how we've really known things are real.

Hmm, I think it's always been more about gathering evidence and being able to propose experiments that can be repeated that establishes what is real and what is not. Well, unless you want to get all philosophical... but that's a different kettle of fish altogether. But from a practical day to day perspective, I think that's pretty much how it works.

I can see where you are coming from, but bear in mind that there are many people in mental homes who are convinced by thier own experiences and decided they were real. Unfortunatly for them, they concluded wrong, when the simpler answer was not that they were transmitting thoughts to an alien race, or are the next messiah, but that thier brain chemistry had failed them.

A strong feeling or a strong belief is not the same as a correct feeling or a correct belief. Which is why as a race, we had to establish things like the scientific method to better serve our search for truths.

I do understand what you are saying, but just be careful not to assume that convincing experiences and strong feelings are the same as truth...
That way, you help build a stronger defence should your own brain chemistry fail you, or someone doses you with a giant amount of LSD.

Interesting points though, but i think we have to be careful with these things.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

There is a difference between proving something exists, and being able to harness it in a way that allows you to market it.

You know what this reminds me of? The world wide debate on dark matter. It's been proven that it, or at least something that takes its place, does exist. But because of it's nature, nobody has the ability to prove it yet, and they may not ever.

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

i like how you dance.

logic lesson #1;

claim with no proof leads to the claim being not true (either lying or delusional).

obviously this is wrong, to any sane person.

but maybe you meant; claim with no proof leads me to no logical choice but to see it as not true (either lying or delusional)

if you were aiming for that last one, scatterbrain, then you've already made the choice for billions of other people. and all this without the use of any logic or reason at all. i can easily claim you as delusional now.

the correct answer is; a claim with no proof leads to an unproven claim.

that doesn't mean i can't believe it (ie. god), it doesn't mean i have no choice but to dismiss it, nor does it make me delusional if i choose to entertain, or god forbid, have faith in the claim.

please please please, if you are going to claim to have some sense, logic, reason or whatever, please don't give me this nonsense instead, specially if you're using it to make fun of someone, it's really very sad.

welcome to the real world. and yes, it is scattered, go pick it back up.

Attempt at bending logic failed. (hint: don't wear such a patronizing tone if you're going to fail miserably at logic)


If I say I have a cat but can't prove it, that's one thing. A cat is a known animal and many people have one or more as a pet, so there's a tangible probability that the claim is true. That's what a regular unproven claim is.

If I say I have a supernatural ability, something that goes against known and well tested physics laws, and can't prove it, that's a whole different thing. It's a subjective and unproven claim that breaks objective and proven laws (i.e. it's an insane unproven claim). Occam's razor, the simplest explanation has the most probability of being the correct, rather than assume our tested physics are wrong, we assume that the subjective, physics-challenging, evidence-lacking and not testable claim is wrong.

If you can provide some sort of tangible evidence or test for the claim, it will be considered then. If not, it's as good as someone claiming a pile of shit actually talked with him, logic doesn't tell you to face that claim with "hmm, it could be", the most logical assumption is that the person is either lying, delusional, or just batshit crazy.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Attempt at bending logic failed. (hint: don't wear such a patronizing tone if you're going to fail miserably at logic)

well, i was attempting to mimic your tone, which i apparently misread. sorry for that. and no, i would not normally patronize you. sometimes i do this sober, so you must forgive me, that was the start of my day.

but to bending logic. i bent it only as far as i had to, and only to match the other side. all your points are well taken and addressed later. i should mention that i accept the notion that people who have experienced "subjective, physics-challenging, evidence-lacking and not testable" things are not necessarily delusional, insane, or liars. i assure you, but you can easily look that up too. i'm guessing i fail because of vague words, but it was for brevity only. i stand by that you cannot logically concluded that a person is a liar or delusional based on having experienced something extraordinary (i used parentheses). are we straight?

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

If I say I have a supernatural ability, something that goes against known and well tested physics laws, and can't prove it, that's a whole different thing. It's a subjective and unproven claim that breaks objective and proven laws (i.e. it's an insane unproven claim)...we assume that the subjective, physics-challenging, evidence-lacking and not testable claim is wrong.

it sounds like bending to me (the parentheses i mean). it is very different claiming something outside the set laws. this does not make it an insane claim, however (though it makes it more likely to be). your last words again come around, you do assume the "claim is wrong", but it remains (by your words, correctly) an assumption. this assumption has a long way to go, through proving itself, perhaps, and given the claim a new explanation, it must then posses the ability to further underscore the person as a liar or delusional. how many wild claims that are outside of the set laws (ie. god, heaven, spirit, this) do you suppose fall to those numbers? is this a subjective decision?

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

If you can provide some sort of tangible evidence or test for the claim, it will be considered then.

no one here is applying for consideration, i don't think, im not. they are proposing ideas, i think, like 'how does gravity work?'. but as for claims and proofs, the original poster linked to an article (that's not bad for an amateur) which claims proof. now i heard some attempt at discrediting the source, but nothing amounting to anything. i guess he's still waiting on someone's honest consideration, all he's gotten is the other kind.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

If not, it's as good as someone claiming a pile of shit actually talked with him, logic doesn't tell you to face that claim with "hmm, it could be", the most logical assumption is that the person is either lying, delusional, or just batshit crazy.

i really hope we're straight now.

A claim with no proof, and the person who makes the claim refusing or unable to demonstrate proof, suggests something fishy is going on.

A patient claims they have seizures, unable to prove it the doctor he assumes something fishy is going on.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Hmm, I think it's always been more about gathering evidence and being able to propose experiments that can be repeated that establishes what is real and what is not. Well, unless you want to get all philosophical... but that's a different kettle of fish altogether. But from a practical day to day perspective, I think that's pretty much how it works.

I can see where you are coming from, but bear in mind that there are many people in mental homes who are convinced by thier own experiences and decided they were real. Unfortunatly for them, they concluded wrong, when the simpler answer was not that they were transmitting thoughts to an alien race, or are the next messiah, but that thier brain chemistry had failed them.

A strong feeling or a strong belief is not the same as a correct feeling or a correct belief. Which is why as a race, we had to establish things like the scientific method to better serve our search for truths.

I do understand what you are saying, but just be careful not to assume that convincing experiences and strong feelings are the same as truth...
That way, you help build a stronger defence should your own brain chemistry fail you, or someone doses you with a giant amount of LSD.

Interesting points though, but i think we have to be careful with these things.

The scientific method is a logical step after empiricism. And the scientific method incorporates empiricism with multiple people and specific data. Which is why it is the most useful method for "truth" gathering.

People talking to themselves and people having specific understanding of the future is quite different.

Science hasn't figured it all out, their is still so much more to study.

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

like my example of religion, but apparently you can't see why that is a weak and unfair argument (for being too vague, black&white), not to mention the flawed reasoning you give ('as there is none, he is either a liar or delusional'), but i still think you are delusional yourself, so i'll let you slide. i'll make it easy; you make a claim (like the original poster) and so you must back it up. you call someone delusional, so you must prove it.

I am proving it - I am calling him a liar or delusional for not being able to prove otherwise, even in a remote sense. He is making the claims and failing to back them up with any remote evidence. Thus, the conclusion.

see? there is an entire system of laws and institutions devoted to proving someone is something, it's not the other way around. you were fine with your disagreements, and i would not have bothered to post, until you made the outrageous claim that DC is delusional. luckily you have no say in the matter, nor do you know much about it, that's what the professionals are for.

Delusional; claiming to have seen and experience things that no others can experience. These experiences are also believed to be real and influential in the persons life.

QED. Need I say more?

yea, i remember that too, only different. see, in fact i was trying to project the delusion onto you, but for reasons that you can't see. it was a deliberate effort to show you something, and it has worked better than i could have imagined (and im quite imaginative). and no, im not desperate, i love this.

You think that I need to prove he is delusional, but you fail to see how he is already proving that for me.

you did make one assumption, it's the quote that i neatly put in (from you) right before i said that. i'll do it again;

I am not utilizing that quote for an argument, stop grabbing for straws.

and no, im not defending anything nor anyone, im just using your own standards to claim that you are delusional yourself. and I'll let your flawed logic slide again on this one, seeing as though i believe you are delusional and thus not very reliable when it comes to forming reasonable thoughts.

Well, you are failing as you are actually trying projection and defending rather than justification.

i'll reiterate; you claim that someone is delusional, you must back this up or withdraw from the claim. that's how the system works, it has been like this for a long time here in the civilized world. and please, don't bring up the 'he can't prove it so he's a liar or crazy' stuff, cause you'd be relegating entire nations to the mad house under that standard, and it would be the 'im not crazy, everyone else is crazy' all over again. ps; check your logic on that one, it's really (really) bad, or stay in your delusion (that would be more fun for me).

I do not know what is so hard for you to understand about this - deathcell claims to have experience psychic phenomena.. I ask him to demonstrate it. He cannot. Thus, I think he is delusional or a liar. He cannot prove me wrong. The only

no wonder i like you so much. a tool, yes, the toolest of the tools, and you can use me up all you want. blind too, so you'd have to be my guide (and you're doing a fine job so far).

edit; i can't believe you wear that avatar and act this way at the same time, that's some funny stuff.

Your facetiousness is entertaining but pointless.

Also, please do not be another scmuck that thinks that I am ignorant to the meaning of this symbol. I am profoundly attached to it much more than it seems most believe.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

I don't think thats why people are in mental institutions. I think they probably have very serious mental problems.. The kind where you run into walls, can't communicate..

Congratulations on... another

AD HOMINEM ATTACK.

Again, you made the claim. You cannot justify it. Thus, I believe you are either a liar or delusional.

I love watching people desperately try to pull out logical fallacies in the face of being exposed. You honestly believe I am commiting an ad hominem fallacy but you are the one with the onus to prove your assertions - not I. You have not proved a damn thing. Thus, I believe you are either lying or delusional.

Once you can prove otherwise, I am all ears.

I don't need to respond to someone equating something such as Psychics with people who murder for fun..

Where the hell did I say that?

Why do I have to prove anything to you? To make you believe that it is true yes, but I have no reason to prove to you that I am not crazy. What the hell?

You made the assertions, not me.

Wrong Onus, you are making a claim that I must be delusional.. Now the burden of proof is on you. The simple fact that Psychic visions are not proven is not enough, for if I had spouts of fainting without proof how do we know its not a delusion.

lol why do you guys keep doing this? Saying that I am making the assertion that you are delusional so I must prove it? How can I ever prove it if you cannot even justify your own assertions? Are you guys really that incapable of seeing a point..?

Not trying to save anything actually, I understand that its currently impossible to prove to the world that this really happens. Especially when most of the world is so close-minded that they already have pre-conceived thoughts on this kind of "Weird" "nonsense" and "madness" Whether you are able to see it or not, you all have your own conclusions drawn, evidence for or against doesn't really matter. Until MIT or some school releases a study you will never believe. Which is commendable and respectable, but doesn't make you any more right than me. Just reliant on others.

Again, do not make the mistake of thinking that you are the only individual that has fantasized about having psychic abilities.

I have people PM'ing at least twice every week about having "supernatural" phenomena as a mod. I have to answer to the best of my ability but it's tiring. There are way too many people who think they are so damn special because something "comes and goes" to give "magical clairvoyance" but they "have no control" over it.

Honestly, it's pathetic how much people adhere to it and then claim that I am the close minded one. You have much more potential than believing in this crap.

I honestly, 100%, think you are either lying and enjoying the fantasy, or simply honestly believe the delusional self-fulfilling prophecy.

Sorry, but you are human and you are susceptible the same garbage that many other people have believed in - even myself.

People want to talk about being "waken up" as a skeptic and "believing"? Well, I used to think I had "special powers" - go see my first post on DV - but guess what; I woke up and realized I was being a selfish prick. The best hope you got is to argue my personal bias or something - so go nuts - try your best to justify the self indulgent fantasy chock full of delusions of grandeur.

This is why I hate psychology and wanted to get out of it - people are so fucking stupid. They believe the most ridiculous things on the most ridiculous justifications and then go on living their lives in accordance to it. There are so many people that I wish could just be fucking killed off because they do nothing but cause financial burdens on the health system, their families, and cause stress to others. There is no good in believing this garbage and I look forward to the day where I can say, "I can read your thoughts and you are fucking hallucinating you stupid liar now get on with it and live your life normally" because then psychology would be much for functional and not having to fucking justify itself for every goddam diagnoses.

Fuck you people and believing in psychic abilities. I've fucking had it with it this year. All fucking case studies I have dealt with have been with either fucking children believing they are Gods somehow or fathers believing they have the right to murder their family because they are descendant from some fucking supernatural purpose. It's so fucking stupid. The asinine things people justify their stupid fantasies with turn into such grandiose problems that all it causes in the end is depression.

Here is what will happen with you believers of "psychic" abilities - believe in your fantasies, fight about it so much to other people trying to prove it. You'll hate those that are "closed minded" and don't believe it but you will enjoy the time you can share with these fantasies with others that believe in these fantasies. However, there will be subtle stressors as you all have a gut-feeling it's fake. Have you ever been to a group therapy meeting with a dozen people who all think they are some kind of God? I will bet you haven't, but believe me, it's fucking stressful and ridiculous because they all have their own little stupid reasons for thinking that they are somehow supernaturally destined for great psychic things.

And you know what, it has become such a prominent thing that it is now part of diagnosing schizophrenia, psychosis, and depression. Delusions of grandeur. And it all starts with believing in simple fucking coincidences. What the hell do I have to prove?! Just you wait. Struggle your ass off and you will see your fucking self and then come to someone in my position to ask for help and I'll do my best to tell it to you and all you'll do is continue to resist the help and I FUCKING AM SICK OF IT.

Honestly I believe you are just delusional. (Blank statement with no proof)

Projection.

I must graduate from a school as a science major, and study myself for hours upon hours while testing right.. Because normal people from day to day go about studying themselves as such...

I don't need to prove to you that I am not delusional, you are making the claim that I am... So you must prove it.

I can prove it, here we go... I think you are either lying or delusional about your psychic abilities - you cannot prove me wrong - thus I am right.

Please be a little insightful and see the point.

And you made a counter-claim that I must be delusional or lying with no proof or reason to believe it to be.... Congratulations of being guilty of the same crime.

ARE YOU THAT RETARDED?! USE YOUR FUCKING BRAIN FOR A SECOND AND RE-READ IT. I am sick of spelling it out for you and I am not going to anymore. Holy fucking dog shit.

I don't expect you to believe me, I understand you need concrete proof.. I gave you my detailing of the story and that is all, I told you it happens multiple times.. That is all I can do.. I am not a scientist, I have not studied it under a microscope.. You ask for things people can't provide you, when you know they aren't their... But that doesn't prove I'm lying or delusional... If you had a seizure and had no proof, does that make it any less real? You keep ignoring that one.

You can prove you had a seizure. You cannot prove you had a fantasy. Congratulations - you have discovered how to be unfalsifiable. Thus, you must be right, right?

Who are we to decide what is mad and what is sane, as long as it harms none... Do what ye will.

.... oh... my... god.

That is the creed we should all live by, I don't actually think your all "mad" or "crazy" I was being sarcastic, but of course you can't pick up on anything like that. You really take everything so serious, you must be a load of fun at a party... haha

...

As you've said yourself lack of proof is not proof of anything. So you are crossing the line and assuming a lack of an ability to prove something means it must be a delusion. You don't have to believe that they really have seen the future but you still have no proof that they are delusional, because to prove that you are taking the place of someone who knows all the answers(when you don't).

You are so dumb... I don't want to try anymore.. you completely and utterly fail to see my point and all I'll end up doing is seemingly repeat myself to you. You are so lost in your delusion that you cannot even see my point.

Once again, someone has seizures and is unable to reproduce for doctors.. By your own logic, They must be delusional or lying.

You can prove seizures.

How come you can make biased assumptions without evidence and others are not? (Your thought is nothing but that.. a thought) No one is making you believe anything, but how come a lack of proof is all of a sudden grounds for lying or delusion without you putting in any effort? No proof my friend.

I honestly believe you are just stupid now - this paragraph proves how you fail to see my point. I do not know how to spell it out easier.

Good luck. Alice in Wonderland is coming out soon starring Johnny Depp and directed by Tim Burton. I am sure you will enjoy.

As a side note, I would not continue the discussion. If you came in seeking help with depression and brought this up, you would be in the category of "fuck that". You are too resistant to discuss and completely fail to see my point.. utterly. It's ridiculous.

~