Thread: Sony declares psychic phenomena real

Originally Posted by O'nus

I am proving it - I am calling him a liar or delusional for not being able to prove otherwise, even in a remote sense. He is making the claims and failing to back them up with any remote evidence. Thus, the conclusion.



Delusional; claiming to have seen and experience things that no others can experience. These experiences are also believed to be real and influential in the persons life.

QED. Need I say more?



You think that I need to prove he is delusional, but you fail to see how he is already proving that for me.



I am not utilizing that quote for an argument, stop grabbing for straws.



Well, you are failing as you are actually trying projection and defending rather than justification.



I do not know what is so hard for you to understand about this - deathcell claims to have experience psychic phenomena.. I ask him to demonstrate it. He cannot. Thus, I think he is delusional or a liar. He cannot prove me wrong. The only



Your facetiousness is entertaining but pointless.

Also, please do not be another scmuck that thinks that I am ignorant to the meaning of this symbol. I am profoundly attached to it much more than it seems most believe.



Again, you made the claim. You cannot justify it. Thus, I believe you are either a liar or delusional.

I love watching people desperately try to pull out logical fallacies in the face of being exposed. You honestly believe I am commiting an ad hominem fallacy but you are the one with the onus to prove your assertions - not I. You have not proved a damn thing. Thus, I believe you are either lying or delusional.

Once you can prove otherwise, I am all ears.



Where the hell did I say that?



You made the assertions, not me.



lol why do you guys keep doing this? Saying that I am making the assertion that you are delusional so I must prove it? How can I ever prove it if you cannot even justify your own assertions? Are you guys really that incapable of seeing a point..?



Again, do not make the mistake of thinking that you are the only individual that has fantasized about having psychic abilities.

I have people PM'ing at least twice every week about having "supernatural" phenomena as a mod. I have to answer to the best of my ability but it's tiring. There are way too many people who think they are so damn special because something "comes and goes" to give "magical clairvoyance" but they "have no control" over it.

Honestly, it's pathetic how much people adhere to it and then claim that I am the close minded one. You have much more potential than believing in this crap.

I honestly, 100%, think you are either lying and enjoying the fantasy, or simply honestly believe the delusional self-fulfilling prophecy.

Sorry, but you are human and you are susceptible the same garbage that many other people have believed in - even myself.

People want to talk about being "waken up" as a skeptic and "believing"? Well, I used to think I had "special powers" - go see my first post on DV - but guess what; I woke up and realized I was being a selfish prick. The best hope you got is to argue my personal bias or something - so go nuts - try your best to justify the self indulgent fantasy chock full of delusions of grandeur.

This is why I hate psychology and wanted to get out of it - people are so fucking stupid. They believe the most ridiculous things on the most ridiculous justifications and then go on living their lives in accordance to it. There are so many people that I wish could just be fucking killed off because they do nothing but cause financial burdens on the health system, their families, and cause stress to others. There is no good in believing this garbage and I look forward to the day where I can say, "I can read your thoughts and you are fucking hallucinating you stupid liar now get on with it and live your life normally" because then psychology would be much for functional and not having to fucking justify itself for every goddam diagnoses.

Fuck you people and believing in psychic abilities. I've fucking had it with it this year. All fucking case studies I have dealt with have been with either fucking children believing they are Gods somehow or fathers believing they have the right to murder their family because they are descendant from some fucking supernatural purpose. It's so fucking stupid. The asinine things people justify their stupid fantasies with turn into such grandiose problems that all it causes in the end is depression.

Here is what will happen with you believers of "psychic" abilities - believe in your fantasies, fight about it so much to other people trying to prove it. You'll hate those that are "closed minded" and don't believe it but you will enjoy the time you can share with these fantasies with others that believe in these fantasies. However, there will be subtle stressors as you all have a gut-feeling it's fake. Have you ever been to a group therapy meeting with a dozen people who all think they are some kind of God? I will bet you haven't, but believe me, it's fucking stressful and ridiculous because they all have their own little stupid reasons for thinking that they are somehow supernaturally destined for great psychic things.

And you know what, it has become such a prominent thing that it is now part of diagnosing schizophrenia, psychosis, and depression. Delusions of grandeur. And it all starts with believing in simple fucking coincidences. What the hell do I have to prove?! Just you wait. Struggle your ass off and you will see your fucking self and then come to someone in my position to ask for help and I'll do my best to tell it to you and all you'll do is continue to resist the help and I FUCKING AM SICK OF IT.



Projection.



I can prove it, here we go... I think you are either lying or delusional about your psychic abilities - you cannot prove me wrong - thus I am right.

Please be a little insightful and see the point.



ARE YOU THAT RETARDED?! USE YOUR FUCKING BRAIN FOR A SECOND AND RE-READ IT. I am sick of spelling it out for you and I am not going to anymore. Holy fucking dog shit.



You can prove you had a seizure. You cannot prove you had a fantasy. Congratulations - you have discovered how to be unfalsifiable. Thus, you must be right, right?



.... oh... my... god.



...



You are so dumb... I don't want to try anymore.. you completely and utterly fail to see my point and all I'll end up doing is seemingly repeat myself to you. You are so lost in your delusion that you cannot even see my point.



You can prove seizures.



I honestly believe you are just stupid now - this paragraph proves how you fail to see my point. I do not know how to spell it out easier.

Good luck. Alice in Wonderland is coming out soon starring Johnny Depp and directed by Tim Burton. I am sure you will enjoy.

As a side note, I would not continue the discussion. If you came in seeking help with depression and brought this up, you would be in the category of "fuck that". You are too resistant to discuss and completely fail to see my point.. utterly. It's ridiculous.

~

BRAVO BRAVO BRAVO!!!!
Finally,
I take my hat of to you!

I agree with EVERY SINGLE WORD in this post.

I wonder how long till DeathCell writes a patronising reply... something that starts with "Congratulations...." (he loves doing that, then claiming everyone else is being patronising and arrogant... odd!)


But, lets face it, he's never going to open his mind to the fact that maybe it's not everyone else who is wrong, maybe it's him.

You sir are my new hero.
I feel your frustration.
I'm going to put another hat on, just so i can take it off to you again...

BRAVO!!!!!

MAYBE this will do something.

Note; if you're too stupid to see why I included a video arguing Christianity in this psychic thread... then you have no hope to see the point.

Edit:

I thought of an even better one-up;

I had a psychic revelation that you are either a liar or delusional. You cannot prove me wrong, can you?

Ugh...

~

Originally Posted by moonshine

I have to ask, if the proof is so simple, why has it never been achieved by a legitimate mainstream source?

The answer is, I think, obvious.

Exactly.

And why aren't all psychics lottery winners?

And why didn't a single psychic predict the 2004 Indian Ocean Tsunami?

Because it's a load of horseshit. In fact no, it's worse, at least horseshit IS actually useful.

Great post moonshine

O'nus, damn i really feel sorry for you. Look how angry you are lol. Fear. I can't believe most of you still don't get it. Your too afraid of the fact that MAYBE..just MAYBE there is something more out there, but you don't understand. You can't understand because you only think about what your told to believe. You only go by mainstream science for truth, thus you can't even begin to understand anything outside of that. Your mind is conditioned. You live in a world your told about.....not what you think yourself.

You could sit here and tell me you lucid dream, and that you can fly and stuff at night when you sleep. Well what if i say i don't believe you! I can't see it, you can't prove it to me. Your a liar and your delusional.

So you say you lucid dream O'nus? I think your a liar and your delusional. I actually think your crazy and need to see a doctor. Point proven.

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

O'nus, damn i really feel sorry for you. Look how angry you are lol. Fear. I can't believe most of you still don't get it. Your too afraid of the fact that MAYBE..just MAYBE there is something more out there, but you don't understand. You can't understand because you only think about what your told to believe. You only go by mainstream science for truth, thus you can't even begin to understand anything outside of that. Your mind is conditioned. You live in a world your told about.....not what you think yourself.

You could sit here and tell me you lucid dream, and that you can fly and stuff at night when you sleep. Well what if i say i don't believe you! I can't see it, you can't prove it to me. Your a liar and your delusional.

So you say you lucid dream O'nus? I think your a liar and your delusional. I actually think your crazy and need to see a doctor. Point proven.

Ok just a comple of things, mate.

Lucid Dreamng has been proven scientifically, and that, mate, is why we are even here discussing it. It wasn't until scientists like Keith Hearne, Stephen LaBerge and Celia Green bought the subject into the light of scientific understanding... THEN AND ONLY THEN did the MAINSTREAM new age community suddenly jump on the bandwagon.

So i expect onus would say "Go read the research carried out".



Oh and you think that the new age astral travel gang are not mainstream?
This makes me laugh.

How many mainstream magazines do you buy with astrology sections and articles about Wtichcraft and OBEs etc? pick up almost any womans magazine and you'll find something.
How many of those magazines contain a section on Astronomy or scientific studies? A LOT LESS.

Also... how many high streets do you find the "new age store"?
Go to any big town and you'll find one... every bookshop has a new age section. So don't try and pretend to us that you're "fringe"... New Ageism is about as big buisiness and as mainstream as it gets. In fact, I can bet you almost any gift store will contain some item of new age consumerism available for the masses to purchase.

How many popular science stores do you find on an average high street?
It's by far easier to go and buy a dreamcatcher, crystal healing kit or astral travel manual... than it is to buy a telescope, microscope or equipment to perform home science.

Its unfortunatly the scientific minded folk who are the smaller group.
There are FAR FAR more superstitous, new age and religious people in the world than there are free thinking scientifc types.

I'm afraid, if you want to feel special and unique... following new age beliefs is probably the last thing you want to do... every other teenager has a book about witchcraft, spellcasting or astral travel.

OPEN YOUR MIND.... there is more to this world than the New Age media has told you. But, don't worry it's not your fault, there's a hell of a lot of money to be made out of telling people nice stories about ghosts, astral travel and crystal healing, so its not suprising the people who create new age consumerism don't want you to think scientifically... You'll stop buying thier products and books once you realise it's all fairy tales for adults. It's a billion dollar industry... and it all works by making you feel like you have an open mind... only you can only have the kind of open mind they want... the one that dosn't ask questions, and isn't critical. One that accepts anything it is told is "spiritual".

I'd far rather see the rings of saturn through my telescope, than try and open my third eye based on some book in which some fat wealthy american with a beard who runs "shamanic healing workshops" tells me is the correct way to think.

Ask difficult questions. Don't accept everything you read in the lucrative new age bookstores.


I'm not suprised Onus is angry.
There is only so long you can be polite when dealing with mindlessness.
It's no different from trying to discuss with a born again christian who keeps telling you you are going to hell... thats how you people come across. You bite your tounge for so long, but when you realise they are too brainwashed and stupid to see beyond thier silly superstitious ways... you just have to tell them to go sod off (and you hope to hell they are one of the less mental ones, and arnt going to go strap bombs to themself or any of the other things that superstitious people do when they can't get thier way.)

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

O'nus, damn i really feel sorry for you. Look how angry you are lol. Fear. I can't believe most of you still don't get it. Your too afraid of the fact that MAYBE..just MAYBE there is something more out there, but you don't understand. You can't understand because you only think about what your told to believe. You only go by mainstream science for truth, thus you can't even begin to understand anything outside of that. Your mind is conditioned. You live in a world your told about.....not what you think yourself.

^ Oh the bitter irony of this post.

First of all, rational scientific minded people are NOT afraid of there being "something more out there". Quite the opposite. I would love for someone to discover some exciting new phenomenon such as the existence of another realm or telekinesis or mind-reading etc. I eagerly await each new edition of New Scientist to see what the latest discoveries are. I would particularly love for someone to convincingly demonstrate that there is life after death so that I could see someone I loved and lost again, especially since I never got to say goodbye.

What we are afraid of is this: All the seemingly harmless beliefs evident in this section of the forum which are held by so many people actually provide the backbone for the extremist nutters who blow up our buildings, aircraft and subways. Without the passive support of the religious and the believers in supernatural phenomena the extremists would just be loonies locked away in an asylum.

As for your comment "You can't understand because you only think about what your told to believe". This has to be the worst case ever of the pot calling the kettle black. You obviously don't understand how the Scientific Method works (jeez what the hell are they teaching in schools these days?) The whole reason the scientific method exists is so the human race can accurately determine fact from fantasy. In other words, so that we don't believe something automatically simply because we are told it by someone.

Originally Posted by O'nus

MAYBE this will do something.

Note; if you're too stupid to see why I included a video arguing Christianity in this psychic thread... then you have no hope to see the point.

Edit:

I thought of an even better one-up;

I had a psychic revelation that you are either a liar or delusional. You cannot prove me wrong, can you?

Ugh...

~

Sorry onus, sometimes in life it's not about proving something right or wrong but letting things be how they are.

Proof and poof...

Again, you made the claim. You cannot justify it. Thus, I believe you are either a liar or delusional.

I love watching people desperately try to pull out logical fallacies in the face of being exposed. You honestly believe I am commiting an ad hominem fallacy but you are the one with the onus to prove your assertions - not I. You have not proved a damn thing. Thus, I believe you are either lying or delusional.

Once you can prove otherwise, I am all ears.

Being unable to prove something to you doesn't mean someone is lying or delusional. As I keep showing you in my example of someone who has seizures. Regardless of whether the doctor while testing them is able to find out they are prone to seizures, they would still have them. Would the doctor assume that they are lying or delusional because they can't seizure in his presence?

You seem to think it's up to people to prove things to you, for you to believe possibly.. But really that is all.

You can prove seizures.

It doesn't matter, they could still be lying or delusional.

A lack of proof doesn't mean it's impossible. The fact that you can prove seizures exist makes it more plausible that they might not be lying, but they could still be lying... unless your method of needing proof is no longer valid in the case of something already well known.. thus basing your reality on what others tell you?

I can prove it, here we go... I think you are either lying or delusional about your psychic abilities - you cannot prove me wrong - thus I am right.

Please be a little insightful and see the point.

Your point is if I can't prove it to you, you must be right.. Sorry buddy life doesn't work that way.

A lack of proof never proves you right...

Projection.

Actually, sarcasm.. why I put () <-- That was me pointing out I have no proof for the statement I just made, same as you.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Sorry onus, sometimes in life it's not about proving something right or wrong but letting things be how they are.

Proof and poof...

I dont think i've ever see you agree with anything anyone has ever said when they don't agree with your main stance.
Do you not find it odd that the people you disagree with are never right about anything?
Surely every now and then you'd have to accept that yes, some of thier points are valid if not others?

But you never do that, why is that DeathCell?

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I dont think i've ever see you agree with anything anyone has ever said.
Do you not find it odd that the people you disagree with are never right about anything?

I don't think you read all my posts then.


I think Onus is right about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean I think I'm lying or delusional when I'm not.

exactly deathcell. It can't get any simpler than that. Some things aren't meant to be proven.

I still stand by what i said. And yet no one has any comment on this:

You say you fight alien monsters while you sleep at night, but i don't see it, you can't prove it to me. Yet that would make you crazy, a liar and delusional according to your "logic". You can't prove to me you fought alien monsters, you can only tell me what you experienced and hope that i believe you.

Originally Posted by DreamQueen

What we are afraid of is this: All the seemingly harmless beliefs evident in this section of the forum which are held by so many people actually provide the backbone for the extremist nutters who blow up our buildings, aircraft and subways.

Lol. Damn, DeathCell, HaRd_WiReD, and other fellow extremists, they discovered our secret plot to overthrow the governments and blow up as much of civilisation as we can. We better lay low for a while.

Originally Posted by Xetrov

Lol. Damn, DeathCell, HaRd_WiReD, and other fellow extremists, they discovered our secret plot to overthrow the governments and blow up as much of civilisation as we can. We better lay low for a while.

Don't misinterpret. I didn't say you people were the extremists. I said you provide the backbone for the extremists.

Originally Posted by Xetrov

Lol. Damn, DeathCell, HaRd_WiReD, and other fellow extremists, they discovered our secret plot to overthrow the governments and blow up as much of civilisation as we can. We better lay low for a while.

I know you're joking but you're missing the point.

It is the mindset that everyone should accept anyones beliefs, however silly,
that allows extremists to exist.

If people were more critical, and took a firmers stand againsts nonsense...

Then teenage boys would never be able to be brainwashed into blowing themselves and innocent people up in the name of " a spirit world with 79 virigins waiting for them"

Its really not a big step from beliving in an astral plane, to beliving in a "spirit world with virgins"

So, yeah, maybe you'll not blow yourself up... but someone else who is more gullable, may read posts where LOTS of people are saying other worlds exist... and take that as evidence that thier other world of virgins is waiting... if only they can prove to god that they are worthy.

It may make a funny joke, but it is unfortunatly how these things work.
Personally I cant be a part of that world, i refuse to let mindlessness, superstition and nonsense go unchallenged.

this is getting tiring. i now see i can't convince you.


your argument is;

I am proving it - I am calling him a liar or delusional for not being able to prove otherwise, even in a remote sense. He is making the claims and failing to back them up with any remote evidence. Thus, the conclusion.

- O'nus

i have no choice (based on your other arguments and info) to assume that you don't think all people who make claims outside of scientific possibility are liars or delusional. you should read 'the god delusion'. anyway, i happen to agree, but you cling to this logic for some unknown reason;

-an unproven claim leads to a claim being not true (liar or delusional).

when you want it to be like this (because of your defense of some unproven claims);

-some are not necessarily false or delusional.

i'm fine with this separation, but if you want to keep arguing that DC is delusional, you are using probability, not logic, for your proof. not even the most ardent (real) skeptic would dismiss all these people as delusional, for good reason, as it doesn't make any logical sense. i know you believe it tho, but it's just a belief, and you can't prove it with facts nor logic (obviously), only probability.

probability is fine when you wanna do some things, not this tho. if someone came down claiming they were god i'd probably think they're delusional. but if instead someone came claiming to believe something that has been claimed before by countless other people (the original post on psychics) and is a well established notion, and has been so for a long time, then i could not fairly even assume they are delusional. this doesn't mean i must accept their claim. by the way, DC's case is different, as he provides us with what he thinks is proof (something that has yet to be addressed in this thread). but i guess somethings are more important.

to reiterate; believing in an unproven and extraordinary thing (or experiencing one), outside of the set laws governing the universe, does not (and cannot) mean that you are delusional or a liar, by itself (you need more stuff). it only makes you more likely to be delusional/liar. unless you are using this as a blanket, cold-logic, statement. with it nearly the entire population of this world could be called delusional (an argument that some have made).

this is common sense. you seem too stuck somewhere to be able to acknowledge this. so, i look forward to picking apart your own delusions, O'nus, and will even teach you again the meaning of your name.

I propagate peace, love and understanding. I am for sharing mutual viewpoints even if they look to be so far seperated that you can't imagine it to be true. I'm for incorporating personal subjective experiences in our worldview. Last but not least, I am for adhering to common sense and science. Please tell me where is the backbone for people like Osama that blow up buildings? You guys are missing the point here. Exploring these spiritual issues in the spirit of personal freedom is in no way cause to extremism like you guys claim. It is one of the most ridiculous claims I have heard in years. People harm each other due to hate and intolerance, not because there is a backbone present of people who explore spiritual issues. If you have only hate and intolerance for a certain group of other people, there is always going to be some excuse to do harm.

Originally Posted by moonshine

None of the above needs high technology or elaborate science.
It just needs simple verifiable evidence of it actually occuring.

that is the point of the thread. he provides a source who claims to have done simple and verifiable experiments and is using this as evidence to claim it is true. maybe you have a problem with the source? please explain.

if you need a scientific take on all this, go here;

http://blavatskyarchives.com/zeteticism.htm

Come on O'nus. I want you to explain this. I mean it IS your logic.

"You say you fight alien monsters while you sleep at night, but i don't see it, you can't prove it to me. Yet that would make you crazy, a liar and delusional according to your "logic". You can't prove to me you fought alien monsters, you can only tell me what you experienced and hope that i believe you."

So explain that. Wouldn't that make you crazy and delusional?!?! No one has answered this yet!

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

Come on O'nus. I want you to explain this. I mean it IS your logic.

"You say you fight alien monsters while you sleep at night, but i don't see it, you can't prove it to me. Yet that would make you crazy, a liar and delusional according to your "logic". You can't prove to me you fought alien monsters, you can only tell me what you experienced and hope that i believe you."

So explain that. Wouldn't that make you crazy and delusional?!?! No one has answered this yet!

Actually I replied to you already on this...
and this is what i said (and also what you said)..

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

O'nus, damn i really feel sorry for you. Look how angry you are lol. Fear. I can't believe most of you still don't get it. Your too afraid of the fact that MAYBE..just MAYBE there is something more out there, but you don't understand. You can't understand because you only think about what your told to believe. You only go by mainstream science for truth, thus you can't even begin to understand anything outside of that. Your mind is conditioned. You live in a world your told about.....not what you think yourself.

You could sit here and tell me you lucid dream, and that you can fly and stuff at night when you sleep. Well what if i say i don't believe you! I can't see it, you can't prove it to me. Your a liar and your delusional.

So you say you lucid dream O'nus? I think your a liar and your delusional. I actually think your crazy and need to see a doctor. Point proven.

Ok just a comple of things, mate.

Lucid Dreamng has been proven scientifically, and that, mate, is why we are even here discussing it. It wasn't until scientists like Keith Hearne, Stephen LaBerge and Celia Green bought the subject into the light of scientific understanding... THEN AND ONLY THEN did the MAINSTREAM new age community suddenly jump on the bandwagon.

So i expect onus would say "Go read the research carried out".



Oh and you think that the new age astral travel gang are not mainstream?
This makes me laugh.

How many mainstream magazines do you buy with astrology sections and articles about Wtichcraft and OBEs etc? pick up almost any womans magazine and you'll find something.
How many of those magazines contain a section on Astronomy or scientific studies? A LOT LESS.

Also... how many high streets do you find the "new age store"?
Go to any big town and you'll find one... every bookshop has a new age section. So don't try and pretend to us that you're "fringe"... New Ageism is about as big buisiness and as mainstream as it gets. In fact, I can bet you almost any gift store will contain some item of new age consumerism available for the masses to purchase.

How many popular science stores do you find on an average high street?
It's by far easier to go and buy a dreamcatcher, crystal healing kit or astral travel manual... than it is to buy a telescope, microscope or equipment to perform home science.

Its unfortunatly the scientific minded folk who are the smaller group.
There are FAR FAR more superstitous, new age and religious people in the world than there are free thinking scientifc types.

I'm afraid, if you want to feel special and unique... following new age beliefs is probably the last thing you want to do... every other teenager has a book about witchcraft, spellcasting or astral travel.

OPEN YOUR MIND.... there is more to this world than the New Age media has told you. But, don't worry it's not your fault, there's a hell of a lot of money to be made out of telling people nice stories about ghosts, astral travel and crystal healing, so its not suprising the people who create new age consumerism don't want you to think scientifically... You'll stop buying thier products and books once you realise it's all fairy tales for adults. It's a billion dollar industry... and it all works by making you feel like you have an open mind... only you can only have the kind of open mind they want... the one that dosn't ask questions, and isn't critical. One that accepts anything it is told is "spiritual".

I'd far rather see the rings of saturn through my telescope, than try and open my third eye based on some book in which some fat wealthy american with a beard who runs "shamanic healing workshops" tells me is the correct way to think.

Ask difficult questions. Don't accept everything you read in the lucrative new age bookstores.


I'm not suprised Onus is angry.
There is only so long you can be polite when dealing with mindlessness.
It's no different from trying to discuss with a born again christian who keeps telling you you are going to hell... thats how you people come across. You bite your tounge for so long, but when you realise they are too brainwashed and stupid to see beyond thier silly superstitious ways... you just have to tell them to go sod off (and you hope to hell they are one of the less mental ones, and arnt going to go strap bombs to themself or any of the other things that superstitious people do when they can't get thier way.)

spaceexplorer that's not answering my question man. You can't prove to me that you can make spaceships appear out of thin air when you lucid dream.

Just you "wiggling your eyes around" ( which is what LaBerge did ) at a certain period of time in sleep proves nothing. You still have not proved to me that you can make spaceships appear out of nowhere. Thus, your still crazy and delusional if you told me you did.

If anything all that Laberge's experiment told me was that you can still be conscious while the body sleeps.

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

spaceexplorer that's not answering my question man. You can't prove to me that you can make spaceships appear out of thin air when you lucid dream.

Just you "wiggling your eyes around" ( which is what LaBerge did ) at a certain period of time in sleep proves nothing. You still have not proved to me that you can make spaceships appear out of nowhere. Thus, your still crazy and delusional if you told me you did.

If anything all that Laberge's experiment told me was that you can still be conscious while the body sleeps.

Well, let me answer fully then...

Every normal human being dreams, we all know the nature of dreams.
The evidence that events occur in dreams is available to each of us every night. So establishing that humans have vivid experiences whilst asleep, is something we all already have evidence for.

Also as you said, we can demonstrate that you can still be conscious whilst asleep and dreaming scientifically, that has been done.

So, we now have two pieces of evidence:

1) that people have real seeming experiences whilst dreaming - we all have direct hand evidence of this. It is easily repeatable for any normal human on this planet.

2) that consciousness can be added into this dreamworld - this is something that evidence can be gathered (and has) to prove.

So, next step... how can we prove a specific dream theme?

Well firstly, I think most rational people could put 2 and 2 together, and understand that once consciousness is added to dreaming, that choices in that dream world could be made, and the world could be altered.

However, if you want a more direct answer...

You could establish an experiment in which a lucid dreamer would partake in sexual activity in the dream. As the sexual organs are not inhibited in the same way as the rest of the body in dreams... you could establish that a sexual dream was taking place... as chosen by the dreamer before sleeping.

This 3rd element, would then for most reasonable individuals, be enough to demonstrate that if a dreamer can alter the content of the dream enough to have a sexual experience... that other elements could too be changed.

As we are all aware of the great potential in our normal dreams, then most reasonable people would then conclude that it is possible to change the theme of dreaming. All that would be lacking after all this evidence, is whether individual dream reports have been fabricated.
We can however establish if a dream report fits with the evidence we already have of what we know to be possible in a dream.


As for final proof, well until we can decode brain firing and play it on a TV, that wont directly possible...

but i think there is enough indirect evidence already to support any claim of "making a spaceship appear in a dream".

You know what. I give up. There's no point in trying to prove anything.

there are no conclusive proof for anything spiritual
this is why its a choice to believe or dont believe based on whatever you believe it should be

the way i see it is
energy doesnt die, it converts, so clearly we will still live on in some form, we all have energy in us

this energy will dissipate and become other things

ergo, in a technical sence, we do 'live' on
whether that energy is conscious and aware as it is in this life, i have no idea
but thats the point, you can only decide this kind of thing for yourself by yourself.

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

You know what. I give up. There's no point in trying to prove anything.

there are no conclusive proof for anything spiritual
this is why its a choice to believe or dont believe based on whatever you believe it should be

the way i see it is
energy doesnt die, it converts, so clearly we will still live on in some form, we all have energy in us

this energy will dissipate and become other things

ergo, in a technical sence, we do 'live' on
whether that energy is conscious and aware as it is in this life, i have no idea
but thats the point, you can only decide this kind of thing for yourself by yourself.

Or not... because if you die and the energy released is unconscious... there will be no deciding to do!

So you can only decided for yourself by yourself... if yourself is still a self to decided if the self is a self at all.

Of course you meant, decide before you die... but isn't it best just to assume that we wont live on?
It's better to be wrong about that... than it is to be wrong about living on.

You actually end up the winner if you live your life like it's all you've got THEN discover you have an after life.

You're a looser if you live your life like there is an after life... then vanish forever.


(and i agree about the energy thing... it's a bit disturbing to think that everything that makes you you, will be around until the universe dies.. if it ever does!)

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

there are no conclusive proof for anything spiritual
this is why its a choice to believe or dont believe based on whatever you believe it should be

if only these people had stuck to your brand of sense, instead of making wild accusations that people are delusional.

sometimes tho, when you make a claim and you try too hard to defend it, you end up with no way to save face (which is what O'nus and others are really trying to do). so, yea, give up on this (cause we can logically assume they're delusional now) and go on to better things. also, a better example would be this; http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=73385

maybe we can continue discussing the original post again, and try and ignore the crazy people.

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

O'nus, damn i really feel sorry for you. Look how angry you are lol. Fear. I can't believe most of you still don't get it. Your too afraid of the fact that MAYBE..just MAYBE there is something more out there, but you don't understand. You can't understand because you only think about what your told to believe. You only go by mainstream science for truth, thus you can't even begin to understand anything outside of that. Your mind is conditioned. You live in a world your told about.....not what you think yourself.

Fear..? You seriously think I am afraid of something? Are you that stupid that you cannot read my frustration, not fear? I deal with people who come to seek help ought of depression, anxiety, and fear itself and they are the ones that struggle to justify their fantasies.

You think I am afraid that something supernatural is out there? Where the hell are you reading this? I constantly deal with people thinking that they are descendants from Jesus or that God is living in their veins and ask me for help - but you think I am afraid of the idea? Why? What reason would I have to be afraid of someone else being desperately ludicrous? Are you seriously that blind?

I am afraid that everything you have said here is actually applicable to yourself - not me. Here's why:

- Some people see the frailty of their bodies and think, "I do not like this" and then discover the power of lying and fantasy. This is the spawning grounds for believing that they are psychic as proving certain psychic abilities (ie. clairvoyance) is near unfalsifiable.

- Those who are desperately stressed with their life believe that their must be something to give it purpose. But this isn't before they have already believed that their life is pointless, meaningless, and depressing. At this point, there is a polarized emotional compensation called "psychosis" or "delusions of grandeur" because it is something that gives hope and a means to cope with the current stress. Lucid dreaming is a version of this.

You could sit here and tell me you lucid dream, and that you can fly and stuff at night when you sleep. Well what if i say i don't believe you! I can't see it, you can't prove it to me. Your a liar and your delusional.

So you say you lucid dream O'nus? I think your a liar and your delusional. I actually think your crazy and need to see a doctor. Point proven.

If you actually do a search for "Lucid dreaming controversy" under my name, you will see that I have extensively argued the actual possibility of lucid dreaming. I am a firm believer that most lucid dreams are simply regular dreams of being in control - but when it comes to dreams, that is not what is important. But that is digression.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Sorry onus, sometimes in life it's not about proving something right or wrong but letting things be how they are.

Proof and poof...

Scientific method:

- I reach a conclusion through certain methods.
- I offer the conclusion but others skeptical.
- I then offer the means to reproduce the conditions that brought me to that conclusion
- In other words, I offer the means for others to experience what I experienced.
- Thus, others can come to the same conclusion as I.

What you are saying is this:

- I reached a conclusion
- I offer it to others
- They do not believe me
- I continue to believe my conclusion besides the fact that I have no real way of reproducing the experience.

The most you can do now is argue the frailty of reproducing experiences.

You seem to think it's up to people to prove things to you, for you to believe possibly.. But really that is all.

Are you saying that you believe any random claim? Again, I am God. Do you believe me?

How about, I had a psychic vision that you are lying. Now what?

A lack of proof doesn't mean it's impossible.

The fact that you keep saying this to me is a testament to your incapability to understand my point.

Your point is if I can't prove it to you, you must be right.. Sorry buddy life doesn't work that way.

A lack of proof never proves you right...

Counter-exampling.

Not easy enough? I am being facetious. You cannot prove me wrong that you are lying - so - I think you are lying or delusional. That is simply what I think. I don't have to prove it. Why should I? You are the one making grandiose claims - not me. The claims you are making should be easy to prove - unlike seeing an alien or new lands or something.

Psychic abilities ought to be easy to prove.

As a note on that, do you know who James Randi is? He offered $1 million to someone who can prove supernatural powers. The conditions are fair and easy - even Sylvia Browne initially agreed to them. But all have failed to reproduce psychic claims. Something that ought to be real easy to a real psychic - it's a very easy request; repeat your abilities.

Actually, sarcasm.. why I put () <-- That was me pointing out I have no proof for the statement I just made, same as you.

Let me allow Michael Shermer to explain why people believe stupid things.

Michael Brant Shermer (born September 8, 1954 in Glendale, California) is an American science writer, historian of science, founder of The Skeptics Society, and Editor in Chief of its magazine Skeptic,[1] which is largely devoted to investigating and debunking pseudoscientific and supernatural claims. The Skeptics Society currently has over 55,000 members. (Wikipedia)

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

i have no choice (based on your other arguments and info) to assume that you don't think all people who make claims outside of scientific possibility are liars or delusional. you should read 'the god delusion'. anyway, i happen to agree, but you cling to this logic for some unknown reason;

-an unproven claim leads to a claim being not true (liar or delusional).

I was being facetious. Please be more insightful to my points.

-some are not necessarily false or delusional.

i'm fine with this separation, but if you want to keep arguing that DC is delusional, you are using probability, not logic, for your proof. not even the most ardent (real) skeptic would dismiss all these people as delusional, for good reason, as it doesn't make any logical sense. i know you believe it tho, but it's just a belief, and you can't prove it with facts nor logic (obviously), only probability.

Well this is reasonable, yes. This is why I am saying I think/believe you are lying or delusional - not know.

probability is fine when you wanna do some things, not this tho. if someone came down claiming they were god i'd probably think they're delusional. but if instead someone came claiming to believe something that has been claimed before by countless other people (the original post on psychics) and is a well established notion, and has been so for a long time, then i could not fairly even assume they are delusional. this doesn't mean i must accept their claim. by the way, DC's case is different, as he provides us with what he thinks is proof (something that has yet to be addressed in this thread). but i guess somethings are more important.

You mean the reference to a drug blog fantasy site..?

to reiterate; believing in an unproven and extraordinary thing (or experiencing one), outside of the set laws governing the universe, does not (and cannot) mean that you are delusional or a liar, by itself (you need more stuff). it only makes you more likely to be delusional/liar. unless you are using this as a blanket, cold-logic, statement. with it nearly the entire population of this world could be called delusional (an argument that some have made).

I think you are being too modest. You know I am not a fundamentalist here or something.. just frustrated and stressed with psychological work.

this is common sense. you seem too stuck somewhere to be able to acknowledge this. so, i look forward to picking apart your own delusions, O'nus, and will even teach you again the meaning of your name.

Aside from that, you have done nothing but proved that, in the face of being exposed, it is always best to point the finger back. Projection.

"I think you are wrong."
"No.. YOU ARE WRONG!"

Nay..?

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

"You say you fight alien monsters while you sleep at night, but i don't see it, you can't prove it to me. Yet that would make you crazy, a liar and delusional according to your "logic". You can't prove to me you fought alien monsters, you can only tell me what you experienced and hope that i believe you."

So explain that. Wouldn't that make you crazy and delusional?!?! No one has answered this yet!

What..? Are you talking about lucid dreaming again..? Because, again, I do not truly believe in the fantasy of lucid dreaming - just dreaming of lucid dreaming.

Unless you are about to pull out Cartesian reasoning here to try and justify nonsense..

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

if only these people had stuck to your brand of sense, instead of making wild accusations that people are delusional.

I called him a liar.

sometimes tho, when you make a claim and you try too hard to defend it, you end up with no way to save face (which is what O'nus and others are really trying to do). so, yea, give up on this (cause we can logically assume they're delusional now) and go on to better things. also, a better example would be this; http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=73385

You guys make claims, I call you a liar.. and I am saving face because I need to prove your claims before I can call you a liar?

*Edited for civility.

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