Thread: Sony declares psychic phenomena real

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Why do psychic powers have to be proven to the "community" or repeated on will to exist or be useful?

Because if you can't prove it, then the most likely probability is that it doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Because if you can't prove it, then the most likely probability is that it doesn't exist.

Kind of like gravity and a world that wasn't flat in the middle ages?

Just like nuclear technology two hundred years ago?

Never heard of such a theory on probability..

Well people die a lot too, 107 every minute apparently.

I find money weekly, roughtly about $20 a week.
Although 2 weeks ago i found $250, $30 the next, then today $20

It's enough for my friends to find very spooky. None of them would put it down to supernatural causes though.
Yet I know of no one who finds money on such a regular basis as myself, by a long shot.
I certainly don't think it's paranormal. It's a handy example of a combination of statistics and how a mind can become trained to notice patterns.

Trained to notice patterns... But you are saying you actually are finding money, it's not a pattern but something you are obviously looking for.

It's still not the same as seeing a vision and than having it unfold... If you perhaps visioned where money was and walk their just to find it...

As for "Why it happens?"
Well the question is loaded, first it assumes there has to be a reason,
I give my reason: because unlikely events will occasionally occur.
That dosn't seem enough for the question you are asking though.

But that doesn't explain why these unlikely events that will occasionally occur, which by your card example was in the millions or billions I'm not remember at this moment..

To multiple people, multiple times.. Something very unlikely happening once to one person and I'd buy it, but it is widely reported... And as I said needing further study to simply write it off as bunk because it hasn't been yet proven..

In the past 5 months there has been a massive increase in UFO sightings in the UK. Seriously it's in the news almost every day. However almost every single one of these reports has the same answer: Chinese sky lanterns.
These flying lanterns have become very popular in England recently, replacing fireworks for many people. However people who see them without knowing what they are, tend to assume they are alien space craft, and rather than looking for a simple answer, they fit what they see into their world view.

UFO's = Unidentified flying objects, which are a quite common occurrence from reflections in light, real airplanes, military craft etc...

That is an assumption, unlike psychic situations where something unknown happens after the prediction is made, UFO's are people guessing they are "aliens" without even actually seeing anything.

I say they are experiencing unusual events as predicted by the laws of chance, and then, in line with the experiencers belief system, they interpret their experience in line with what they believe. As most people have some belief in the paranormal, they assume it is a paranormal experience, rather than a case of being the victim of statistics.

Your card example with 52 options was in the millions/billions... statistics for dreams matching up with reality doesn't exist, which is why I keep saying.... Your example doesn't fit, until you do an actual statistic on this. (Millions of options for dreams and reality....)

So if only one dream out of a million, matches up with reality, i'd say it's more likely my dreams are not related to the future, and in this case, there was an unusual coincidence and nothing more.

Than you are assuming you understand what the meanings of dreams are when that science is in its infancy.. You assume that to dream the future, every dream must be as such.. I'm not sure why.

An unusual coincidence that you could have more of.

https://www.legacy.com/masslive/deat...rsonid=3465961

Well, I can explain my position no further without going over old ground.

I don't agree with the points you've just made, but my answers would be the same, so it's would be like going around in circles.

I'm still completely unconvinced by psychic phenomena. Unfortunatly, your strong belief is unable to convince me, any more than a devout christian could convince me to the nature of God by their strong belief.
In fact, most if not all your arguments are similar or identical to the arguments used by those claiming their particular faith is true, and how they explain away their miracles in spite of scientific evidence.

It remains that a lack of evidence or proof is the real stumbling block here.
When the proof is on the table, for all to see and assess, then we can make a decision. Until that point, deciding on peoples strong beliefs and anecdotal stories would be foolish. So i'll remain skeptical based on a lack of substantial evidence... not personal choice, because my opinion will remain open on the matter, and the moment someone can demonstrate (as they did with the round earth) evidence that substantiates their claim, then myself and the rest of the rational world will be happy. Until that point, it remains in the realm of invisible men, goblins, unicorns and jesus.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

It remains that a lack of evidence or proof is the real stumbling block here.

It's not lack of evidence, it's the willingness to see it that is lacking.

And that is the very essence of what psychic powers are.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

It's not lack of evidence, it's the willingness to see it that is lacking.

Do you suppose unwillingness to see that it is lacking would be better?

And Nintendo saw a ghost.

Originally Posted by Mark75

And Nintendo saw a ghost.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Well, I can explain my position no further without going over old ground.

I don't agree with the points you've just made, but my answers would be the same, so it's would be like going around in circles.

Of course you don't.. My points are quite valid though. Variables of infinity for dreams and reality, unsure how you could ever make a statistic for that...

I'm still completely unconvinced by psychic phenomena.

I don't expect you to change your views based on some posts online.

Unfortunatly, your strong belief is unable to convince me, any more than a devout christian could convince me to the nature of God by their strong belief.

What is your point? Hundreds of years ago people probably couldn't have convinced you the earth was round -.- , an inability to convince doesn't make it that similar to religion, I'm not asking you to bow or even believe me.

In fact, most if not all your arguments are similar or identical to the arguments used by those claiming their particular faith is true,

Really believe in Psychics and be saved???

and how they explain away their miracles in spite of scientific evidence.

Doesn't even make sense, their is no scientific evidence against religion or psychics.. You keep confusing a lack of evidence as evidence.

It remains that a lack of evidence or proof is the real stumbling block here.

Yet your last post you claim their is evidence against...

When the proof is on the table, for all to see and assess, then we can make a decision. Until that point, deciding on peoples strong beliefs and anecdotal stories would be foolish.

Must be a cold and lonely world

So i'll remain skeptical based on a lack of substantial evidence...

Sure.

not personal choice, because my opinion will remain open on the matter, and the moment someone can demonstrate (as they did with the round earth) evidence that substantiates their claim, then myself and the rest of the rational world will be happy.

I'm sure you and others won't ever be happy.

Until that point, it remains in the realm of invisible men, goblins, unicorns and jesus.

Do I care? And in the realm of seizures for those unlucky enough to not be able to prove it to their doctor!

I actually have a few goblins..

(Typical argument, can't prove it so it automatically goes into the corner with the "crazy" beliefs. It must be convenient to decide what you think could be logical and what isn't when you have no evidence.)

Originally Posted by The Cusp

It's not lack of evidence, it's the willingness to see it that is lacking.

And that is the very essence of what psychic powers are.

Yeah, your response might make a good Haiku or something, but like Deathcells lengthy posts
its not actually saying much at all.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Yeah, your response might make a good Haiku or something, but like Deathcells lengthy posts
its not actually saying much at all.

Actually I say quite alot. If you are unable to understand my arguments or even care.. because after all Psychics are laughable in your opinions..

Regardless of what you say about wanting proof, you have your own pre-conceived notions on Psychics and know them to be "fake".

If you think my posts say nothing, please point out all the words that said "nothing".

Otherwise you are just full of shit. I was wondering what that smell was.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

What is your point? Hundreds of years ago people probably couldn't have convinced you the earth was round -.- , an inability to convince doesn't make it that similar to religion, I'm not asking you to bow or even believe me.

Actually I have to reply to this point.
Actually hundreds of years ago people could have easily convinced me the earth was round... by showing evidence and a logical explanation that improved upon the current view that the world is flat.

This remains equally true for the paranormal. Just show the evidence and a logical explanation that does a better job at explaining events than the current viewpoint, and i'll happily adjust my world view.
That's all any of us ask, but we keep being told it's impossible, or that it is small minded to ask for evidence.

Problem is nobody seems to be able to offer either.

Oh and in response to:

Really believe in Psychics and be saved???

- no that's not what i was saying at all...

What i was saying is your point comes across like this:

"psychic phenomena exist, I know it, I've experienced it, I know for certain it is true. But I have no evidence and can't demonstrate it. How can you explain so many people who believe?"

Compared to:

"Jesus exists, I know it, I've experienced it, I know for certain it is true. But I have no evidence and can't demonstrate it. How can you explain so many people who believe?"

Or even:

"The demon Incubus exists, I know it, I've experienced it, I know for certain it is true. But I have no evidence and can't demonstrate it. How can you explain so many people who believe?"


Oh and finally your point:

Must be a cold and lonely world

Actually it's a beautiful, amazing wonderful world. Full of things to discover, hard earned knowledge to be learnt. A cosmos to gaze at in awe. Other humans to love and care for.

As the wonderful Douglas Adams said "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

The universe is wonderful and beautiful enough, I don't need Gods, pixies or psychic powers to make it special, it's already utterly amazing.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Actually I have to reply to this point.
Actually hundreds of years ago people could have easily convinced me the earth was round... by showing evidence and a logical explanation that improved upon the current view that the world is flat.

Back than the evidence was held down and only a few people had it... So easily is an exaggeration, because the evidence was sparse and few people had it and understood and those who didn't tried to exterminate it.

This remains equally true for the paranormal. Just show the evidence and a logical explanation that does a better job at explaining events than the current viewpoint, and i'll happily adjust my world view.

Science doesn't really take "paranormal" seriously, and some of the people testing for it (James Randi), have reasons to keep it fake.. (Him being a magician) You can tell no one takes this shit seriously when it's called "para"normal in the first place.

That's all any of us ask, but we keep being told it's impossible, or that it is small minded to ask for evidence.

That's a bold faced lie, I know I never called you small minded.. If someone did I doubt it was because you want evidence, it's probably your inability to understand that we(on this forum) can't provide for you.

Problem is nobody seems to be able to offer either.

The people that it happens to aren't scientists, scientists don't really take these claims seriously.. The small amount of people studying are called debunking experts.... Do you think their in the search of truth or in the search of how it's fake?

What i was saying is your point comes across like this:

"psychic phenomena exist, I know it, I've experienced it, I know for certain it is true. But I have no evidence and can't demonstrate it. How can you explain so many people who believe?"

Compared to:

"Jesus exists, I know it, I've experienced it, I know for certain it is true. But I have no evidence and can't demonstrate it. How can you explain so many people who believe?"

Their is no way anyone can experience Jesus or the Bible, they could feel the
"holy spirit" or some feeling but I highly doubt any Christian would claim they've seen Jesus or experienced him..... That would be quite a claim, my Christian family wouldn't say that. Their arguments usually come down to they just know because they have faith.... Unlike my argument based on something I experienced.

Or even:

"The demon Incubus exists, I know it, I've experienced it, I know for certain it is true. But I have no evidence and can't demonstrate it. How can you explain so many people who believe?"

How do we know their isn't a demon? How do we know everything isn't being controlled by a demon? Just ask Descartes during his meditations...
I'd say if they truly think they've experienced this demon to study them and figure out what it is. Either a demon, their subconscious projecting evil... whatever.. That's what I say, not that they must be wrong because they don't have proof.. Though proof would really help.. how exactly I'm supposed to prove that something that happened in the past really happened and really wasn't a one in a Bagillion chance... I'm not sure.. I'm tinkering with my time machine I'll let you know when it's up and working. Need some Kryptonite.





Oh and finally your point:

Actually it's a beautiful, amazing wonderful world. Full of things to discover, hard earned knowledge to be learnt. A cosmos to gaze at in awe. Other humans to love and care for.

Love and care, just not accept anything anyone says without proof... How do you possibly enjoy the beauty of the world without proof? How do you learn things unless someone else proves it to you? Or are things you learned in school not questioned because they are assumed to be proven?

As the wonderful Douglas Adams said "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

But the fairies are their.

Douglas Adams, I think believes more than you think... His books are genius. I know he was an atheist but that doesn't mean he didn't think things were far different than our current understanding of reality is. "faries" are nothing but the symbolism of the Sun and water combining to make plants grow..

If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees.

—C. S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory,

The universe is wonderful and beautiful enough, I don't need Gods, pixies or psychic powers to make it special, it's already utterly amazing.

I'm sure you don't need them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Here is a quote from Adams that i think fits perfectly in our discussion

"A man didn’t understand how televisions work, and was convinced that there must be lots of little men inside the box, manipulating images at high speed. An engineer explained to him about high frequency modulations of the electromagnetic spectrum, about transmitters and receivers, about amplifiers and cathode ray tubes, about scan lines moving across and down a phosphorescent screen. The man listened to the engineer with careful attention, nodding his head at every step of the argument. At the end he pronounced himself satisfied. He really did now understand how televisions work. "But I expect there are just a few little men in there, aren’t there?"

Try replacing "Televisions" for "Probability", and "Little men" for "psychic powers"...




Oh and as for "how can you possibly enjoy beauty without proof?"
Well, that's just silly isn't it?
If you're going to argue with me at least try and keep it reasonable.
If i go to a gallery and see a beautiful painting, I enjoy it for its aesthetics, which has nothing to do with proof. If however there was a sign by the painting saying it was painted by Martians... I'd ask for proof.

And as for being taught in school, well yes, of course we have to assume our teachers have reputable sources. If hower my french teacher had made up his own verison of french.. I'd soon discover it when I went to test it with a genuine french friend. Faith in the education establishment is not the same as faith in the claims of a psychic. Either way, when it comes to the crunch, all you need to do is test what you have been taught, if it is genuine, then you'll be able to have a discussion in french... or read minds.
I can speak a little french, but no one who is claiming psychic powers is able to teach or demonstrate what they claim to be able to do.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I think you need to research Adams a lot more, he was very very much a skeptic, and good friends with Richard Dawkins.


In fact, this is a quote of his that i think fits perfectly in our discussion

"A man didn’t understand how televisions work, and was convinced that there must be lots of little men inside the box, manipulating images at high speed. An engineer explained to him about high frequency modulations of the electromagnetic spectrum, about transmitters and receivers, about amplifiers and cathode ray tubes, about scan lines moving across and down a phosphorescent screen. The man listened to the engineer with careful attention, nodding his head at every step of the argument. At the end he pronounced himself satisfied. He really did now understand how televisions work. "But I expect there are just a few little men in there, aren’t there?"

Try replacing "Televisions" for "Probability", and "Little men" for "psychic powers"...

But you can't because the two examples are nothing alike...

Televisions are created by humans, "psychic visions" are naturally occurring phenomenon that we have yet to explain as to why they happen to people.

You take the side of "atheists" and "non-believers" without having to come up with arguments that work.

You seem convinced that it's normal for a one in a gadrillion chance odds to happen to many people and some people on multiple occasions..

I've said this probably far to many times but.. you still haven't addressed it.. With 52 cards in your example and infinite amount of choices between reality/dreams/visions... how do you come up with anything involving probability and the actual subject we are talking about.... I understand your deck of cards, but life isn't a deck of cards with 52 options.


I'm not saying it's paranormal, I'm saying our current understanding is limited.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

But you can't because the two examples are nothing alike...

Televisions are created by humans, "psychic visions" are naturally occurring phenomenon that we have yet to explain as to why they happen to people.

You take the side of "atheists" and "non-believers" without having to come up with arguments that work.

You seem convinced that it's normal for a one in a gadrillion chance odds to happen to many people and some people on multiple occasions..

I've said this probably far to many times but.. you still haven't addressed it.. With 52 cards in your example and infinite amount of choices between reality/dreams/visions... how do you come up with anything involving probability and the actual subject we are talking about.... I understand your deck of cards, but life isn't a deck of cards with 52 options.


I'm not saying it's paranormal, I'm saying our current understanding is limited.

Ok...

Final attempt to explain myself:

You say:

"You seem convinced that it's normal for a one in a gadrillion chance odds to happen to many people and some people on multiple occasions.. "


You are confusing the situation with this claim... what I am saying is:

It is not normal for any one person to have an unusual experience. (otherwise it'd not be called unusual)
BUT
It is normal for unusual experiences to occur to small groups of individuals (say thousands) in much larger groups (billions.)

These are two different points.

I'll make these points clearer:

The odds of winning the lottery for any INDIVIDUAL are: 1 in 14 million
BUT The odds of the lottery being won are basically 1 in 1. Someone WILL win.
These are two different situations.

In the course of a year, many people will win the lottery, despite the fact that their individual chance of winning was 1 in 14 million.

Ignoring that playing the lottery is something people choose to do (which is actually irrelevant to the statistics, but you seem to bring that point up)

The exact same point could be made for being struck by lightning (which can also occur to the same people more than once) which is obviously something people do not choose to do, it is also an unpredictable unlikely natural phenomena.



But I don't agree with your assumption that dreams and reality have infinite possibilties. Which is the crux of your argument. I think that both an individual human life, and that individuals dreams, will have a lot of easily predictable elements. Making the odds of dreams and reality matching much greater than if peoples lives and dreams were utterly random based on infinity.

I for example, will not dream about your mother.
You on the other hand probably will.
If dreams were infinitely variable, then I may dream about your mother... however, they are not, and chances are i'll dream about my mother instead, because my life and dreams are part of a reasonably predictable system i call "my life".

With the variables shrunk massively by the constraints of our own personal lives, then the chances of our dreams and waking life matching up occasionally are actually reasonably high.

Of course for the vast majority of people, they will never match up, because the individual odds are too big.
But the odds are not so big that in large groups of people (7billion) that several thousand will experience these things.
That dosn't reduce the odds of it happening for those people, it'll still be really unlikely, but it just happened to happen to them.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Ok...

Final attempt to explain myself:

Explaining yourself and having it be a correct argument.. are different.

BUT
It is normal for unusual experiences to occur to small groups of individuals (say thousands) in much larger groups (billions.)

How so if the odds are so small why would it be so often mentioned?

The odds of winning the lottery for any INDIVIDUAL are: 1 in 14 million
BUT The odds of the lottery being won are basically 1 in 1. Someone WILL win.

I understand the odds of the lottery.. they have a limited amount of options obviously someone is bound to win eventually, it's not unusual just difficult.

In the course of a year, many people will win the lottery, despite the fact that their individual chance of winning was 1 in 14 million.

Of course, millions of tickets with orders of numbers are sold.. eventually someone is going to win. That is the point.

Ignoring that playing the lottery is something people choose to do (which is actually irrelevant to the statistics, but you seem to bring that point up)

But it is a point, you have yet to actually bring me an actual statistic that is based on Dreams/reality and keep sourcing other unrelated subjects... Think of it this way, the chances of winning the lottery without purchasing a ticket/finding one is 0... Same thing if you don't consciously remember your dreams every day your chances would be less, so it is relevant.

The exact same point could be made for being struck by lightning (which can also occur to the same people more than once) which is obviously something people do not choose to do, it is also an unpredictable unlikely natural phenomena.

Ok and we aren't arguing that getting struck by lightning doesn't happen to people? I don't doubt someone can be struck by lightning twice especially if they need to stand by windows or by trees during lightning storms.. What is the point of this? That something odd happening twice to someone means that psychic visions happening twice to someone is still just a coincidence? Because psychic visions can't be proven, so thus they must be coincidence...

You keep using the same arguments, they aren't the same as dreams/visions matching up... Other than them being rare events...

But I don't agree with your assumption that dreams and reality have infinite possibilties.

But they do, unless you can prove otherwise.. Are you saying their is a set amount of things we can dream about?? If you can prove your theory it would be quite a shock to the dreaming community. Even if the possibilities aren't infinite, can you give me a number and a reason behind it?

Which is the crux of your argument. I think that both an individual human life, and that individuals dreams, will have a lot of easily predictable elements. Making the odds of dreams and reality matching much lower than if peoples lives and dreams were utterly random based on infinity.

But this argument doesn't take away the infinite possibilities argument. Even if our dreams and lives contained some easily predictable elements, that doesn't mean all the elements are easily predictable, the crux of your argument is you assuming that our dreams/reality are both predictable without an ounce of reason or proof.

Your argument is flawed. Containing easily predictable elements, and being easily predictable are far from the same.

I for example, will not dream about your mother.
You on the other hand probably will.

Odd I don't think I've ever had a dream with my mother in it... At least not in the last 15 years.(That I can remember consciously, and I do pride my recall.)

If dreams were infinitely variable, then I may dream about your mother... however

You may, in fact you may already have cause you have no idea who or what my mother looks like.. or you are even assuming that I have one..,

they are not, and chances are i'll dream about my mother instead, because my life and dreams are part of a reasonably predictable system i call "my life".

Thats a good assumption that you will more likely dream about things affecting your life, but not proven.. and still not making your point of reasonably predictable proven. Are you going to now try and claim that if you dreamed about volcanoes in your back yard, and flying around that that was reasonably predictable? Dreams are wide and varied, while some are serious and grounded in reality, a lot is symbolism, and wide varied things that you would more likely see in a sci-fi movie...

Not reasonably predictable at all, otherwise you wouldn't need to keep a dream journal because it would be easily predictable and you should already know what your dreaming.

With the variables shrunk massively by the constraints of our own personal lives, then the chances of our dreams and waking life matching up occasionally are actually reasonably high.

Assumption with no proof... I don't see how the variables are shrunk massively by our personal lives? Our dreams can be off the wall, you can journey into "hell", planets that don't exist, plants and animals that don't exist, faries, angels, demons, laser beam guns, death stars, powers of making things float, rooms full of gold, islands with everything you need, Jesus, Pocahontas, Cinderella, Nuclear wars, a time where no people exist, you can even transform your own "dream" body into anything you want... This is just a small list of the possibilities for dreams... Our personal lives in comparison would be more constrained than our dreams, but even than the possibilities of things that could happen to you are endless..

I don't see how they are reasonably high to match up when your own card example of 52 options was in the millions... You can't even give me a specific amount of variables for dreams/reality but you expect me to just take your opinion of reasonably high for word.. under your own logic you should believe what I'm saying..

Of course for the vast majority of people, they will never match up, because the individual odds are too big.
But the odds are not so big that in large groups of people (7billion) that several thousand will experience these things.
That dosn't reduce the odds of it happening for those people, it'll still be really unlikely, but it just happened to happen to them.

The amount of people does make it more likely, but the options are still varied and as far as I'm concerned infinite till you can explain as to why it's not.

Doesn't explain why some of us experience this phenomenon on multiple occasions.
I'll leave it akin to winning the lottery a few times a year.

So much dancing. I only wish I had such legs, to be able to dance for so long, and while carrying the burden of proof too! =O

Scatterbrain,

Dancing days are here again
As the summer evenings grow
I got my flower, I got my power
I got a woman who knows.

Chorus

I said its alright
You know its alright
I guess its all in my heart

Youll be my only, my one and only
Is that the way it should start?

Crazy ways are evident
In the way that youre wearing your clothes
Suppin boze is precedent
As the evening starts to glow.

Chorus

I told your mamma Id get you home
But I didnt tell her I had no car
I saw a lion he was standing alone
With a tadpole in a jar.

Chorus

Dancing days are here again
As the summer evening grows
You are my flower, you are my power
You are my woman who knows.



P.S. I don't carry a burden off proof, because I am not trying to prove only tell what I experienced and what my opinion is on it. I don't have that available to me sorry.

The only thing I'm positive of, is that this has happened to me on multiple occasions and I'm unsure why.. No dance.

(If he wants to use "proof" to show that my theory is wrong, he is more than able and I'm more than able to debunk.)

Assumption with no proof... I don't see how the variables are shrunk massively by our personal lives? Our dreams can be off the wall, you can journey into "hell", planets that don't exist, plants and animals that don't exist, faries, angels, demons, laser beam guns, death stars, powers of making things float, rooms full of gold, islands with everything you need, Jesus, Pocahontas, Cinderella, Nuclear wars, a time where no people exist, you can even transform your own "dream" body into anything you want... This is just a small list of the possibilities for dreams... Our personal lives in comparison would be more constrained than our dreams, but even than the possibilities of things that could happen to you are endless..

Really?
So you don't think that dreams are limited to the available memories you've gathered throughout your life, and then your mind combines and plays with these to create seemingly new - but still derivative content?

In the same way that an artist can mix the colours red and blue to create purple... the mind, as i see it, can combine a film i watched about a a superhero who could fly, with my experiences of flying in a plane, and also with my experiences of jumping, swimming and moving... to create an experience of me personally flying. It's a "new" experience in the sense that I've not had that experience directly, but it is derivative of memories that I already have.

And if it is a derivative, then it is limited by the memories I have experienced in life, and so would not be infinite. The combinations may be many, but they are still limited to variations and combinations of my own personal memories.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Really?
So you don't think that dreams are limited to the available memories you've gathered throughout your life, and then your mind combines and plays with these to create seemingly new - but still derivative content?

In the same way that an artist can mix the colours red and blue to create purple... the mind, as i see it, can combine a film i watched about a a superhero who could fly, with my experiences of flying in a plane, and also with my experiences of jumping, swimming and moving... to create an experience of me personally flying. It's a "new" experience in the sense that I've not had that experience directly, but it is derivative of memories that I already have.

And if it is a derivative, then it is limited by the memories I have experienced in life, and so would not be infinite. The combinations may be many, but they are still limited to variations and combinations of my own personal memories.

Maybe infinite is a too stringent word, but I'd dare you to come up with a reliable base to start. (My basic point, that the numbers are so uncountable they might as well be infinite)

Our lives are long and people come up with seemingly original works of fiction, are we to assume that everything is really just a spitting of someones ideas twisted to seem new? You are theorizing very much on our scope and our ability to imagine, a hardly understood concept.

I understand what you are saying and even find it somewhat true toward our experiences of some of our dreams. But not the only cause. Does that mean babies don't dream, or have the most simplest and basic dreams because their scope of experience is so low? Why don't we lock a baby from birth in a darkened room and see what his dreams are, than we could perhaps have a better understanding of a humans experiences having to do with their ability to imagine or dream of the fantastical.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Actually I say quite alot. If you are unable to understand my arguments or even care.. because after all Psychics are laughable in your opinions..

Regardless of what you say about wanting proof, you have your own pre-conceived notions on Psychics and know them to be "fake".

If you think my posts say nothing, please point out all the words that said "nothing".

All I ask for is evidence. As previously noted this should be very simple to provide, were psychic powers real.

You're trying to win points by simple, often banal, attrition.
Most of your responses are oblique and in many cases deliberately evasive.
Which is what I mean when I say that you may type a lot (and often) but in actual fact you don't actually appear to be saying much of relevance.

How it appears to me anyway.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Otherwise you are just full of shit. I was wondering what that smell was.

Hmmm. Funny how all the one with the universe trippy hippies are always so quick to spread a little love. Bad Karma Dude.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Maybe infinite is a too stringent word, but I'd dare you to come up with a reliable base to start. (My basic point, that the numbers are so uncountable they might as well be infinite)

Our lives are long and people come up with seemingly original works of fiction, are we to assume that everything is really just a spitting of someones ideas twisted to seem new? You are theorizing very much on our scope and our ability to imagine, a hardly understood concept.

I understand what you are saying and even find it somewhat true toward our experiences of some of our dreams. But not the only cause. Does that mean babies don't dream, or have the most simplest and basic dreams because their scope of experience is so low? Why don't we lock a baby from birth in a darkened room and see what his dreams are, than we could perhaps have a better understanding of a humans experiences having to do with their ability to imagine or dream of the fantastical.

This video makes my entire point on the subject, i think you seem an intelligent enough guy to agree that this video makes some very interesting points.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98OTsYfTt-c

Originally Posted by DeathCell

P.S. I don't carry a burden off proof, because I am not trying to prove only tell what I experienced and what my opinion is on it. I don't have that available to me sorry.

The only thing I'm positive of, is that this has happened to me on multiple occasions and I'm unsure why.. No dance.

(If he wants to use "proof" to show that my theory is wrong, he is more than able and I'm more than able to debunk.)

Considering this, no one can really debate the situation with you. But, is it not reasonable, if not fair, if we postulate our speculation that you could possibly be lying or delusional? On that grounds, I do not think the debate could go much further, just speculation on all sides - this includes your own side of course.

~

Originally Posted by moonshine

All I ask for is evidence. As previously noted this should be very simple to provide, were psychic powers real.

You're trying to win points by simple, often banal, attrition.
Most of your responses are oblique and in many cases deliberately evasive.
Which is what I mean when I say that you may type a lot (and often) but in actual fact you don't actually appear to be saying much of relevance.

How it appears to me anyway.

I don't have proof. I can't pull it out of my ass to satisfy some faceless individuals on the internet.

None of my responses have been evasive and claiming them to be without sourcing it is bullocks. See if you are going to make a statement that proof is readily available why don't you, when you ask me to prove something I've continually said I can't.

Does that mean I can't discuss it, otherwise science would be a boring subject if you were unable to discuss anything until you prove it..

Hmmm. Funny how all the one with the universe trippy hippies are always so quick to spread a little love. Bad Karma Dude.

You are a child. I only spread love to those who want it, and for people like you I tell them the straight truth.

Considering this, no one can really debate the situation with you. But, is it not reasonable, if not fair, if we postulate our speculation that you could possibly be lying or delusional? On that grounds, I do not think the debate could go much further, just speculation on all sides - this includes your own side of course.

Is it hard to have a discussion without proving yourself right? It is speculation when you have no proof! That was always my object.. Not my fault certain people live their lives to prove and disprove, we are online you realize?? Not in a lab.

I can't prove psychic powers, I can to a degree prove that this situation happened to me.. But that is it. You can't prove I'm lying or delusional so it's just speculation... But your all so concentrated on being CORRECT and SUPERIOR that you forget to just listen.