Thread: Shared Dreaming Experiment: Space Explorer and Waking Nomad

The idea of proving that shared dreaming is possible is awesome! Spaceexplorer, Wakingnomad, I hope you get the proof you need!

So, is it going to be done or not? I'm not sure, it looked to me like Wakata escaped at one point.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Interesting how you responded only to my method, but not the example of the dream.

A dream is not an image or a theme. It is an experience.

If you cannot see that it's nearly impossible to have so many "coincidences" in two different dreams, I give up.

I withdraw.

Hey, SpaceExplorer... since WakingNomad opted out, how about the two of us do the experiment? Here's my proposed method:

* Since I can find you in your dreams (I've done it before) it will be my job to locate you and enter your dream.

* You have said you are really good at controlling your LD's. So get the experiment image in your email account with the date verified and all, and then in the dream it would be your job to make your dream world look like that image.

* Make it something exicting or unique, though, as that would be easier for me to remember. It would also reduce the chances of me guessing what it is.

* I will record my dreams with as much detail as possible.

* At the end of the experiment the information for the email account is revealed so we can all see if I ever did see that image.

True, this would not provide undisputable proof since it is just one set of experimental data, but it would be a step in the right direction. All scientific discoveries have to start somewhere! So what do you say? And I promise I won't back out.

Now we're getting somewhere

Raven, that picture is a woman and a man with a beard, that's not really a human head. Looks like it though if you glance at it...attention to detail

Originally Posted by Raven Knight

Hey, SpaceExplorer... since WakingNomad opted out, how about the two of us do the experiment? Here's my proposed method:

* Since I can find you in your dreams (I've done it before) it will be my job to locate you and enter your dream.

* You have said you are really good at controlling your LD's. So get the experiment image in your email account with the date verified and all, and then in the dream it would be your job to make your dream world look like that image.

* Make it something exicting or unique, though, as that would be easier for me to remember. It would also reduce the chances of me guessing what it is.

* I will record my dreams with as much detail as possible.

* At the end of the experiment the information for the email account is revealed so we can all see if I ever did see that image.

True, this would not provide undisputable proof since it is just one set of experimental data, but it would be a step in the right direction. All scientific discoveries have to start somewhere! So what do you say? And I promise I won't back out.

Ok more than happy to do it.

We need to make something clear to all forum members, either side of the fence, the point that DreamQueen raised which is VERY important...

Whatever the result, positive or negative, is NOT conclusive evidence either one way or the other.
If you get the image, this is not conclusive evidence for shared dreaming.
If you do not, this is not conclusive evidence against shared dreaming.

All we will establish in this experiment is a single bit of data.

I think dream queen already said this...
It is the same as someone who claims they can make a coin land on heads ever time. You would not draw a conclusion from one coin toss.

This experiment is one coin toss, it will be a bit of fun, and something for us to both play around with for the week.

Should we wish to continue, and draw any meaningful conclusions, we will need to perform many similar experiments, until we can rule out statistical flukes and chance.

So, with that in mind, whatever our results, NEITHER believers nor skeptics should use this as amunition in their argument. To do so, would be evidence ONLY of that individuals foolishness and inability to comprehend how experiments and conclusions are drawn.

Had to get that out of the way

But it should be fun lots of fun.

I'll get what needs to be in place, in place.

Ok, everything is in place.
Will start tonight.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Ok, everything is in place.
Will start tonight.

And I completely agree that this shouldn't be used as a conclusive argument for or against shared dreaming since by itself it is not conclusive.

I will see you in your dreams.

SpaceExplorer posted the following in the thread Can someone clear up information about shared dreaming?...

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

You've utterly and totally missed the point completely.

I'm actually gobsmacked.


Sorry, i'm not going to take part in the experiment.
Having given it more thought, it seems like a complete waste of time.

If you can't comprehend the point of my post, that's a real worry.

Just what I expected. I'm sorry you can't be open minded enough to even participate in this experiment. I have to say I am disappointed.

So I guess the experiment is off.

It's nothing to do with being open minded.
It's to do with realisng that life is short, and that investing time into a pointless exercise is like throwing good money after bad.

If you wish to continue to spend the precious time in your life, chasing rainbows... go ahead. But don't call those of us who can discern between what is worth investing time into, and that which isnt, closed minded.

It's quite the opposite, it's simply called being discerning

And this is why i'm not doing it, after a lot of thought, it dawned on me....




I've been thinking about shared dreaming, and thinking of the benifits it would bestow upon whomever could do it.

Having thought about it, there are several thoughts I'd like to share. Having had these thoughts, it'd made me realise how very narrowminded we can become about these subjects, how we can only see them through the filters of our own lives. This got me thinking further, and there is a phrase I think that if you take the time to really ponder it, speaks volumes about the subject.
That pharase is:

"Necessity is the mother of invention"

Now what do I mean by that?

Well, let's take a completely different perspective here shall we, shall we forget our own happy healthy lives, our freedoms, our comfortable existence.
And let us project ourselves into the lives of others, who are not as gifted.

Necessity...

Consider for a moment, the thousands of people on this planet, both alive today, and the billions who have gone before us. People afflicted with chronic disability, or perhaps those who have been kidnapped, held hostage or are otherwise cut off from the luxury of social contact we take forgranted.

I'll stick with the disability angle as it avoids confusion.
Let's take one person as an example, Dr Stephen Hawkins.
Here is a man trapped in a body that does not function, to the point where he cannot even communicate verbally. Now think, how many others there are like him.

Consider, the intense motivations, the frustrations, the constant daily stress of not being able to communicate with those you love. The Necessity.

Let us stick with Dr Hawkins, and let us also remind ourselves, here is one of the greatest minds of our time.

Are we arrogant and short sighted enough, to not accept that people in this kind of position, would not have considered EVERY possible means to communicate with their loved ones possible?
Being stuck, trapped in their own minds, every single agonising second of each day.

Would you not crave a means to communicate?

Back to Dr Hawkins, here is a man who can outthink any of us here in this forum. He understand things that many of us would take years to even comprehend, let alone ADD TO the knowledge of those fields.

Do you think he, with his great mind, and the restrictions imposed upon his life, would not have investigated shared dreaming, would not have followed the lead through to a conclusion that could potentially offer him a freedom he can only dream of (no pun intended).
Do you think that if he saw a glimmer of possibility in shared dreaming, he would not have jumped into that possibility with a motivation to understand it, more than we could ever muster.

Necessity is the mother of invention.


So why?
When there are people out there, and have been for generations, who live such restricted lives, who crave to communicate with their loved ones.
Why have they, OF ALL PEOPLE, not developed this skill?

necessity is the mother of invention.

Now, put things into perspective people, see outside the box of your comfortable healthy lives.

See beyond the fuzzy warm feelings the new age books give you.

See the world for the place it is, both beautiful and tragic at the same time.

Think of the frustrations and deep deep aching motivations some unforunate people will have to communicate with others, when they have utterly no power to do so.

It may be all fun and games to play "lets share dreams" when it's just an oddity, a fun little game us healthy lucky people have the freedom to take lightheartedly.

But for some people, that skill, would be the doorway to freedom, a release that we cannot even dream about.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

So why then, with such a powerful and vastly overpowering necessity, has such a skill never been used as a release for these people?

Think about it.
And think about the minds of people like Dr Hawkins, who tower above us intellectually... people who would not only free themselves with such an ability, but would also be in a position to share it with the scientific community with an authority to have it taken completely seriously.

And consider what lengths people will go to for freedom, such as the young man who cut his own leg off with a spade, to escape the rubble of an earthquake recently.

If necessity is the mother of invention, then there is a very very big lack of invention, considering the wave of necessity that overwhelms so many peoples lives.

I think that says a hell of a lot.

So...you are giving up because Hawkins could not do it, or anyone with a disability? has he ever tried? i must be missing your point, that is all i got from your post.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

So...you are giving up because Hawkins could not do it, or anyone with a disability? has he ever tried? i must be missing your point, that is all i got from your post.

the point is:

"Necessity is the mother of invention"

Or if you really need me to spell it out...

If the people who would benifit the most, and have the most motivations for doing something are not or cannot do something.
Then you really have to ask yourself IS IT POSSIBLE TO DO AT ALL?

Or if it needs spelling out further:

If:

A bunch of people on a forum claim they can share dreams with people they have only met on a forum.

AND

People who are trapped in their minds who cant even speak to their loved ones... cannot share dreams with the people they love.

Which seems more realistic?
The healthy forum members have stumbled across something magical.

Or

The people who would probably kill to be able to tell their loved ones they love them, or thank them for caring for them all their lives... cannot share dreams, because IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DO.


OR IN OTHER WORDS...

If those who are desperate, and will do anything for something... are not doing something that others claim is easy and possible.

Why exactly?

Well, you don't need to say it that way but i still can't believe you are backing out because of that. You were looking forward to this then *poof* had a moment, and now you are saying because these guys could not do it, it's impossible. How is that even rational? I guess i just can't understand your way of thinking.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

the point is:

"Necessity is the mother of invention"

Or if you really need me to spell it out...

If the people who would benifit the most, and have the most motivations for doing something are not or cannot do something.
Then you really have to ask yourself IS IT POSSIBLE TO DO AT ALL?

Or if it needs spelling out further:

If:

A bunch of people on a forum claim they can share dreams with people they have only met on a forum.

AND

People who are trapped in their minds who cant even speak to their loved ones... cannot share dreams with the people they love.

Which seems more realistic?
The healthy forum members have stumbled across something magical.

Or

The people who would probably kill to be able to tell their loved ones they love them, or thank them for caring for them all their lives... cannot share dreams, because IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DO.


OR IN OTHER WORDS...

If those who are desperate, and will do anything for something... are not doing something that others claim is easy and possible.

Why exactly?

We have no actual count of how many disabled people have actually attempted to share dreams and how many believe they have been successful. And it is not easy at first. There are many barriers to break down. The barrier of disbelief is a big one. The mind is like a room. As long as it is closed you will never be able to reach beyond. Again, I am sorry, but I tire of this debate because it will not go anywhere. You will never accept shared dreaming; I won't give it up. So I bid you well.

Originally Posted by Raven Knight

We have no actual count of how many disabled people have actually attempted to share dreams and how many believe they have been successful. And it is not easy at first. There are many barriers to break down. The barrier of disbelief is a big one. The mind is like a room. As long as it is closed you will never be able to reach beyond. Again, I am sorry, but I tire of this debate because it will not go anywhere. You will never accept shared dreaming; I won't give it up. So I bid you well.

No, I would happily accept shared dreaming WITH EVIDENCE.

However, I fail to believe that someone who claims they can do it easily like you do, would not spend at least some of their life teaching chronically disabled people how to do it.

Rather than just messing around playing at being a game character in "shared dreams" with random people on forums.

It shows a lack of conviction OR a deep rooted self absorbed nature.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Well, you don't need to say it that way but i still can't believe you are backing out because of that. You were looking forward to this then *poof* had a moment, and now you are saying because these guys could not do it, it's impossible. How is that even rational? I guess i just can't understand your way of thinking.

Because i realised, that nothing could be achieved with the experiment.
Pass or Fail, we would have gained nothing of substance.
We would not have ruled out chance, so the results as they stand alone, would mean nothing.

That combined with a deeper consideration of the issues (as i stated above),
and the realisation that trying to use a scientific approach with people who distrust and reject science constantly unless some misunderstood bit of quantum physics appears on face value to back up their beliefs... is not a very discerning use of my time.

Wow. This thread sure broke down in a hurry. From a scientific experiment to a bunch of arguing. That's too bad. I would like to have seen the results.

Seth

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

It's nothing to do with being open minded.
It's to do with realisng that life is short, and that investing time into a pointless exercise is like throwing good money after bad.

If you wish to continue to spend the precious time in your life, chasing rainbows... go ahead.

So taking a bit of time to do a minor experiment which really only requires that you remember your dreams is a waste of time. But coming in here every day and arguing against the very same topics is a better investment of your time?

From the time you've invested in these arguments already, that statement is a little hypocritical to say the least.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Well, you don't need to say it that way but i still can't believe you are backing out because of that. You were looking forward to this then *poof* had a moment, and now you are saying because these guys could not do it, it's impossible. How is that even rational? I guess i just can't understand your way of thinking.

How would it be rational to carry on with something that is a complete waste of time, as this experiment would be since the design of it does not rule out chance? When someone who knows what they're talking about (ie someone with a university paper which covers Experimental Design) tells you that a journey you are about to embark on is going to lead nowhere, you listen. At least a smart person does

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that way of thinking

Originally Posted by The Cusp

So taking a bit of time to do a minor experiment which really only requires that you remember your dreams is a waste of time. But coming in here every day and arguing against the very same topics is a better investment of your time?

From the time you've invested in these arguments already, that statement is a little hypocritical to say the least.

Coming in here and arguing against stupidity at least has the chance of improving the world by enlightening deluded people. Getting involved in the aforementioned experiment is a complete waste of time. It's not hypocritical at all.

^^^ Exactly ^^^

Oh, so it's a public service you provide!

I still don't see the difference between what you're trying to do and what Mormons try to do when they accost people on the street in an attempt to convert them.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Oh, so it's a public service you provide!

I still don't see the difference between what you're trying to do and what Mormons try to do when they accost people on the street in an attempt to convert them.

The ironic nature of this post is hilarious.

Hold on one moment...

you're the one with the unsubstantiated, evidence free, belief system that contradicts modern science, trying to indoctrinate others and claiming that faith based anecdotes are enough to justify a belief in something, that if true, would shake the foundations of society to its core. Whilst at the same time, shunning any kind of hard questioning with the smoke screen of "oh they are just closed minded..."

Whist, people like myself, come in here and simply say... "um, hold on a second, that's a hell of a big claim you're making there, and you've got no clear evidence to back it up, and well... it kind of contradicts some of the most basic principles of science. Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to jump to really way out conclusions, and consider some of the more down to earth and plausable explanations first?"

But, yeah... we're the ones most like the Mormons... riiiiiight.


ps.... oh and lets not forget to mention, that like the Mormons, you guys have had to set up your own little hide away from the rest of society, where no one can ask difficult questions, because only believers and yes men can go.... they call it a church, you call it the deep dreaming forum.

Like the mormons because you're trying to force your views on people who really aren't interested in hearing them. Also like the mormons you're doing this because you want to "save them". There's also an air or righteousness that you share with them as well. I stand by my metaphor!

Ever heard of christian scientists? Well you're a mormon scientist.

And nobody goes to church anymore. Likewise with the DD.

Well, that didn't go so well..

If you still are interested in the experiment I would gladly participate Raven Knight.