Thread: what evidence is there that the world is still out there when we close our eyes?

Reminds me of Descartes: "I think, therefore I am". Everything we see, hear, feel etc. is as a result of electrochemical signals to our brain. If, for some reason, all these signals were being created by a machine (like in The Matrix) there is no way we could possibly know. All we know is that we possess some kind of conciousness. I know I can't tell if you exist and you can't tell if I do, eyes open or not. We wouldn't be able to assume that even our brain exists as a physical object; maybe our conciousness exists on a completely different layer. There's nothing we can do about it really. I guess if we die and something else happens we might have some answers.

The only evidence I need is that everything is still there and stable when I open my eyes. Unlike dreams, where everything is completely different every time we fall asleep. There is no continuity from dream to dream, or night to night.

Of course our lives are not real, but they are the most real thing we have. Find something that is more real, and we will talk.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

Find something that is more real, and we will talk.

Define "real". Do you know of Plato's "Allegory of the Cave"? The people in the cave are chained down and see only shadows that come in from the entrance. To them, that is "reality". When one of them is set free and is allowed outside the cave, he sees people and the sun. As he tries to explain it to the people in the cave they think he's crazy, because it is so far beyond what they've experienced as real.

I personally think that there is no way we can measure reality, simply because we are not certain we have anything to measure it against. We could be waking up from a dream when we die for all we know. It's hard to imagine because we base our imagination on things we have experienced already. You're right though; it's all we have. Guess there's nothing we can do really.

Originally Posted by Paraknight

Reminds me of Descartes: "I think, therefore I am". Everything we see, hear, feel etc. is as a result of electrochemical signals to our brain. If, for some reason, all these signals were being created by a machine (like in The Matrix) there is no way we could possibly know. All we know is that we possess some kind of conciousness. I know I can't tell if you exist and you can't tell if I do, eyes open or not. We wouldn't be able to assume that even our brain exists as a physical object; maybe our conciousness exists on a completely different layer. There's nothing we can do about it really. I guess if we die and something else happens we might have some answers.

thanks for the thought. yeah it's funny the matrix got me to think about it years ago and then vanilla sky but more recently it's the tibetan bardo teachings about recognizing that you are dead when you are in the after death dream... it's so deep and interesting to ponder and yet a bit scary. yeah the only person that you know is real is yourself and i can't really convince you other wise or vice versa. also i really admire people who have the patience to read all the old philosophers stuff and retain and repeat it for people like me who don't have the patience

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

The only evidence I need is that everything is still there and stable when I open my eyes. Unlike dreams, where everything is completely different every time we fall asleep. There is no continuity from dream to dream, or night to night.

Of course our lives are not real, but they are the most real thing we have. Find something that is more real, and we will talk.

thanx, i like the way you think. if i had something more real i would definitely have mentioned it
and haven't you ever had a dream where you wake up in bed and it looks just like it did when you closed your eyes? so you closed your eyes on the "stable" reality and opened them on a dream version of it that looks and feels just as stable. therefore there is no proof that when you wake up "for real" that you are experiencing anything more real than the dream. also i'm kind of thinking about life as a more stable dream. like when you dream at night it's a dream of a dream. i hate to be so cliche' but paraknight is right it's a matrix theory and if something like that were going on it would be very stable no matter how many times you closed or opened your eyes. the time i thought about this the hardest was once when i tried salvi and as it surged through my brain and i heard my friends laughing i was one hundred percent positive that they were laughing because i had just taken something that would make me realize that my entire life had been a dream and i was about to experience the real world and my actual self for the first time. i was TERRIFIED! the funny thing is that i saw someone else do it who kept saying "take me back out of reality!" over and over when one would expect it would have taken him to a seemingly unreal "bad trip" type place and he would want it to wear off and go back to reality. instead he later told me that he was convinced that it had shown him what reality really was and that our reality is false but much less scary. he also was terrified lol! then a girl i know saw all the clocks and pictures in a room open and faces behind them showed saying things like "she knows what's real now" and "she's waking up!". obviously these experiences are whimsical ethereal plant induced things but they are thought provoking none the less

you can still feel shit with your hands

Originally Posted by Beeyahoi

you can still feel shit with your hands

what? i don't get it. in dreams and reality you can feel stuff with your hands... btw i love all the frogs! i love frogs and toads.

Originally Posted by sleepyzac

btw i love all the frogs! i love frogs and toads.

Me too XD! One of my favorite animals.

Originally Posted by Beeyahoi

Me too XD! One of my favorite animals.

it's funny because out of all things you could try to catch or let your kids catch as a pet they are an excellent choice because they are completely harmless, they couldn't hurt you if they tried (except the poisonous ones... but i live in missouri so none of those here). and everyone gets dogs and cats that can scratch and bite. go figure, i guess frogs aren't very warm and cuddly wow very off topic lol!

Lol yeah I'd be worried about a little kid killing it though.

The better question is: What evidence is there that there is actually a world "out there" that relates to your impressions?

The answer is: None.

Originally Posted by Planewalker

The better question is: What evidence is there that there is actually a world "out there" that relates to your impressions?

The answer is: None.

And I guess technically there shouldn't be a world out there anyway when you look at string theory or unexplainable things like why there isn't just as much anti-matter as there is matter. Good thing it doesn't really matter though.

to the OP, continuity

lol yeah good point guys! so much matter and yet it doesn't matter because there's nothing we could do anyway lol!

If I throw a football at your face, having your eyes closed isn't going to save you from a broken nose.

Originally Posted by Paraknight

Define "real". Do you know of Plato's "Allegory of the Cave"? The people in the cave are chained down and see only shadows that come in from the entrance. To them, that is "reality". When one of them is set free and is allowed outside the cave, he sees people and the sun. As he tries to explain it to the people in the cave they think he's crazy, because it is so far beyond what they've experienced as real.

I personally think that there is no way we can measure reality, simply because we are not certain we have anything to measure it against. We could be waking up from a dream when we die for all we know. It's hard to imagine because we base our imagination on things we have experienced already. You're right though; it's all we have. Guess there's nothing we can do really.

This kind of thinking really keeps me optomstic for the future. I couldn't agree more, Thanks!

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

If I throw a football at your face, having your eyes closed isn't going to save you from a broken nose.

right but that doesn't really prove anything because in a non-lucid dream a football could break your nose as well also out of curiosity why would the kind of violent imagery you come up with involve a football? are you on a team and you think you're dangerous with a football or was it just random?

Originally Posted by sleepyzac

right but that doesn't really prove anything because in a non-lucid dream a football could break your nose as well also out of curiosity why would the kind of violent imagery you come up with involve a football? are you on a team and you think you're dangerous with a football or was it just random?

It was random. Caught a funny mental image of that Brady chick getting her nose broken with the football.

And I was merely responding to the question; as it was worded. There really is no difference between the eyes being opened or close, since there is just as much reason to believe the world exists with our eyes closed, as with our eyes open - if any reason, at all.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

It was random. Caught a funny mental image of that Brady chick getting her nose broken with the football.

And I was merely responding to the question; as it was worded. There really is no difference between the eyes being opened or close, since there is just as much reason to believe the world exists with our eyes closed, as with our eyes open - if any reason, at all.

right on, yeah that was hilarious! especially in the brady movie! i didn't think someone with a cool spawn avatar would be that type of weird high school jock person i need to watch that movie again, even the cg was good and it came out a while ago! the comics were so cool and even the cartoon movies were good! yeah i agree there is always reason to believe and disbelieve, oh well. you know what else is a cool movie is the shadow with alec baldwin! i'm interested in seeing the comics also but have never come across any.

Thomas Campbell, author of "My Big Toe" mentions our world as ""physical matter reality" it is a virtual reality in which there are consciousness living in "vehicles" known as bodies.

A consciousness vehicle is what we use to interact with this world - if we choose to (first we have to learn it though) we can shift our consciousness to other worlds both, non-physical-realities and other physical-matter-realities. According to him we are sharing this physical matter reality with other consciousnes which have their own consciousness-vehicles and so can interact with each other. This physical matter reality have a set of rules that we are playing along with - and that is what makes this place very physical - compared to other more thought-responsive realities. What we are out here for is to lower our entropy - by raising our consciousness.

It all makes sense doesn't it ; )

You should read his book if you are into this sort of discussion.

I have been reading about dream-yoga and tried to practice it - I said to myself "This is all an illusion", but didn't really believe it - until I read Mr. Campbells wonderful masterpiece. Really mindblowing and eyeopening...

That is a great book, TJuulsgaard! A bit of a time commitment, but still pretty awesome. I've never been comfortable with his explanation, however. I don't know why he would theorize/ assume that his OBE experiences are more "real" than his waking life experiences. Why assume the waking world is the more limited view? The waking world certainly feels more stable, consistent, and reliable than the OBE world. We can easily share it with others, it is always there, it doesn't take any mental gymnastics or drugs to experience. By definition, the waking world is the most "real," because it is the one we interact with (and in) the most.

Obviously we are limited by our senses, and only experience a fraction of what is really "out there." I think experiencing dreams and OBEs makes that fact painfully obvious. It is so easy to be fooled! We are fooling ourselves all day, every day, as we create a model of reality for ourselves. This doesn't mean we can magically extend ourselves beyond our limitations if we just imagine hard enough.

It is humbling to experience, first hand, that we live in a limited and illusory world. It is arrogant to imagine we have the ability to transcend these limitations. I believe we have the tools to understand and accept the problem, but not the tools to solve it.

Originally Posted by TJuulsgaard

Thomas Campbell, author of "My Big Toe" mentions our world as ""physical matter reality" it is a virtual reality in which there are consciousness living in "vehicles" known as bodies.

A consciousness vehicle is what we use to interact with this world - if we choose to (first we have to learn it though) we can shift our consciousness to other worlds both, non-physical-realities and other physical-matter-realities. According to him we are sharing this physical matter reality with other consciousnes which have their own consciousness-vehicles and so can interact with each other. This physical matter reality have a set of rules that we are playing along with - and that is what makes this place very physical - compared to other more thought-responsive realities. What we are out here for is to lower our entropy - by raising our consciousness.

It all makes sense doesn't it ; )

You should read his book if you are into this sort of discussion.

I have been reading about dream-yoga and tried to practice it - I said to myself "This is all an illusion", but didn't really believe it - until I read Mr. Campbells wonderful masterpiece. Really mindblowing and eyeopening...

wow! that is some crazy fun stuff! i will check that out, thanx. with all the work and theory in quantum physics it's almost hard to even deny theories like this because of how bizarre things keep turning out to be.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

That is a great book, TJuulsgaard! A bit of a time commitment, but still pretty awesome.

Ah, I had hoped you would cross path with it some time. Have you read the complete trilogy yet?

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

I've never been comfortable with his explanation, however. I don't know why he would theorize/ assume that his OBE experiences are more "real" than his waking life experiences. Why assume the waking world is the more limited view? The waking world certainly feels more stable, consistent, and reliable than the OBE world. We can easily share it with others, it is always there, it doesn't take any mental gymnastics or drugs to experience. By definition, the waking world is the most "real," because it is the one we interact with (and in) the most.

He doesn't theorize that OBE experinces are more "real" than waking life experiences.

As you say, the waking world is more stable, consistent and reliable than NPMR (Non physical matter reality, such as "dreaming life"). There is a good reason for that, heck, that is why it was created it the first place.

We are here to evolve our consciousness, lower our entropy, grow spiritually, become love, get rid of fear and ego. The purpose of this VR (Virtual reality) trainer is to facilitate that evolution. We are as species compared to an elementary school in terms of consciousness. What happens if the children in school has no constraints? Have you ever tried to play a card game where there are no rules? No one knows how to win or not to lose. It's the same with us. We need consistency, we need immediate feedback from our free will applied intent. We evolve in tiny steps by interacting with other beings in this "multi-player game" as we make our choices based on a certain intent.
We need constraints to help us evolve, evolution always try to overcome and adapt to its environment, the constraints IS the environment. This reality frame needs to be stable and consistent, which is why space is isotropic and homogeneous. The rule-set (physics) provides a simple framework for us to live in, causality is much more apparent than in NPMR.

This is a learning lab, and it is indeed the primary reality frame for the interaction of the fragment of consciousness, that we consider the "I". The dreaming reality is a secondary learning lab, which offers more specific learning opportunities as every situation can be designed to test us and make us learn a certain lesson. It is more optional, going OBE is not a requirement at all for a successful growth in a current experience packet, not at all. It can provide some growth, and a better understanding of reality, but the main part is still here in waking life.

You may enjoy this recent delicacy http://vimeo.com/10778333

Originally Posted by sleepyzac

seriously, the faith that there is an external world is equivalent to faith in god, the afterlife, space aliens, esp, or any other un-provable ideals. i wanted to get peoples opinions on whether or not there is any real solid evidence that any of this is real. from an objective stand-point the only sign of reality being real is the experience of consciousness. however this is experienced in isolation when you really think about it as, unless you can communicate telepathically, we are alone in our minds and therefor have no proof that we haven't created all of this in some kind of permanent dream state in which state tests fail. obviously the most relevant similarity is dreaming, if you're not lucid you typically think it is real and so what about life? same mistake? so what do you think? am i right? wrong? am i missing something that could prove my thesis wrong? any thoughts are welcome

glad i read this. there isnt proof that it your wrong, however there is proof that it is correct.

through quantum mechanics, subatomic particles behave as wave lengths when not being observered, or measured if you will. see the double slit experiment on youtube, quantum mechanics is as mind blowing as lucid dreaming i kid you not.

basicly, subatomic particles behave differntly in the absence consciousness. one theory is there wave length is really an equation and when there observed/measured *measured has sort of a different meaning in this text* and when the subatomic particles are observed they collapse into the equation, thus creating everything we know, but if you think about it, only where we are observing,measuring in that sense i mean hearing, seeing, feeling are all acts of measuring and observing.

and its funny what you said about reality, as an idol of mine once said;
"Reality is nothing but an illusion, albeit a persistent one." Albert Einestien

i do believe that to be true, knowing what i do about the quantum world and how the behave and know, almost as if there alive or aware of the fact that we are around them and they behave differntly.

if a tree falls in the middle of a forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a noise? well first off, is there really a tree then? or even a forest?

or something along the lines of, if u put a cat in a box, and put a cyanide release capsule in the box of the cat with a timer for the capsule to release cyanide gas, but have the timer random so it could go off at any time. now, without being able to observe the cat or the cyanide capsule you would'nt know wether the cat was alive or dead, therefor the cat is alive and dead at the same time, and the cyanide capsule is released and isnt. it is both untill it is observed and the subatomic particles behave one way, or the other.