The stages of Sleep Paralysis

[Thor]

There can be little doubt that SP must be induced whilst you are dreaming. Otherwise, as you're running around in your dream you will be bouncing of the walls in your bedroom also. Seems pretty "essential" to me. I assume that by "SP" you mean REM atonia. You can dream in any sleep stage, but REM atonia only occurs in REM sleep, so obviously "SP" is not a necessity for dreaming.

[Mortalis]

As discussed in another post, where a definition of REM atonia was provided, a common name for REM atonia is sleep paralysis. I think you have stated in posts about 20 times that you don't think REM atonia is necessary for dreaming...OK we get it. We understand that sleep walkers can dream. OK! We understand that in less than 1% of the time that people are in non-REM sleep they can dream. OK! Otherwise, when you are dreaming in REM sleep and not sleep walking you are in REM atonia...so yeah, only ~99% of dreaming coincides with REM atonia..

[moonshine]

As discussed in another post, where a definition of REM atonia was provided, a common name for REM atonia is sleep paralysis. I think you have stated in posts about 20 times that you don't think REM atonia is necessary for dreaming...OK we get it. We understand that sleep walkers can dream. OK! We understand that in less than 1% of the time that people are in non-REM sleep they can dream. OK! Otherwise, when you are dreaming in REM sleep and not sleep walking you are in REM atonia...so yeah, only ~99% of dreaming coincides with REM atonia.. Seconded!

[Robot_Butler]

As discussed in another post, where a definition of REM atonia was provided, a common name for REM atonia is sleep paralysis. I think you have stated in posts about 20 times that you don't think REM atonia is necessary for dreaming...OK we get it. We understand that sleep walkers can dream. OK! We understand that in less than 1% of the time that people are in non-REM sleep they can dream. OK! Otherwise, when you are dreaming in REM sleep and not sleep walking you are in REM atonia...so yeah, only ~99% of dreaming coincides with REM atonia.. It is getting a little frustrating, isn't it? Proof that if you say something enough, you start believing it is true. Don't believe everything you think, Thor.

[Thor]

As discussed in another post, where a definition of REM atonia was provided, a common name for REM atonia is sleep paralysis. I think you have stated in posts about 20 times that you don't think REM atonia is necessary for dreaming...OK we get it. We understand that sleep walkers can dream. OK! We understand that in less than 1% of the time that people are in non-REM sleep they can dream. OK! Otherwise, when you are dreaming in REM sleep and not sleep walking you are in REM atonia...so yeah, only ~99% of dreaming coincides with REM atonia.. I have no idea where you got those figures from, but they have nothing to do with reality. "It is generally accepted that NREM mentation which is indistinguishable from REM dreaming does indeed occur. Monroe et al's (1965) widely cited study suggests that approximately 10-30% of NREM dreams are indistinguishable from REM dreams (Rechtschaffen 1973). Even Hobson accepts that 5-10% of NREM dream reports are `indistinguishable by any criterion from those obtained from post-REM awakenings' (Hobson 1988, p. 143). If we adjust this conservative figure to account for the fact that NREM sleep occupies approximately 75% of total sleep time, this implies that roughly one quarter of all REM-like dreams occur outside of REM sleep." (emphasis mine) Solms, Mark. Dreaming and REM Sleep Are Controlled by Different Brain Mechanisms, Behavioral and Brain Sciences 23 (6), 2000.

[Robot_Butler]

this implies that roughly one quarter of all REM-like dreams occur outside of REM sleep." (emphasis mine) Right, and you are not running around acting out those NREM dreams either. You are still paralyzed.

[Thor]

Right, and you are not running around acting out those NREM dreams either. You are still paralyzed. No, you are not paralyzed; people move in their sleep. In REM atonia the nerve signals to the skeletal muscles are blocked by certain types of neurotransmitters, so you can't move. In non-REM sleep this is not the case, but the muscle tone is low, like in relaxation.

[Robot_Butler]

So, you are running around acting out your dreams? I would hate to have to sleep in the same room as you.

[Thor]

So, you are running around acting out your dreams? I would hate to have to sleep in the same room as you. What I'm telling you is a well established, non-controversial scientific fact. Atonia doesn't seem to be necessary in any other sleep stages than REM, even if you do dream in those stages.

[Robot_Butler]

Atonia doesn't seem to be necessary in any other sleep stages than REM, even if you do dream in those stages. That is exactly my point. But sleep paralysis still does occur. We do not act out our dreams, whether REM or NREM. Are you starting to understand why the term sleep paralysis is used, instead of REM-atonia?

[Mortalis]

In the thread I was citing you mentioned a study where 1 member out of maybe 100something or so reported a dream in non rem sleep. This is clearly not statistically significant (p<.05)

[Mortalis]

I have no idea where you got those figures from, but they have nothing to do with reality. "It is generally accepted that NREM mentation which is indistinguishable from REM dreaming does indeed occur. Monroe et al's (1965) widely cited study suggests that approximately 10-30% of NREM dreams are indistinguishable from REM dreams (Rechtschaffen 1973). Even Hobson accepts that 5-10% of NREM dream reports are `indistinguishable by any criterion from those obtained from post-REM awakenings' (Hobson 1988, p. 143). If we adjust this conservative figure to account for the fact that NREM sleep occupies approximately 75% of total sleep time, this implies that roughly one quarter of all REM-like dreams occur outside of REM sleep." (emphasis mine) Solms, Mark. Dreaming and REM Sleep Are Controlled by Different Brain Mechanisms, Behavioral and Brain Sciences 23 (6), 2000. Do you not see the flaw in logic here? The author is making an assumption. Let me put it in a hypothetical situation: Approximately 10-30% of NREM dreams are indistinguishable from REM dreams : And lets say that NREM dreams occur 1/100000, or 1/1000000 compared to REM dreams..you just don't know, just because 10% or 30% or 100% of those 1 in a million are indistinguishable from REM dreams doesn't mean that they are common. Lets accept his numbers, 75% of the time you are in NREM, but that doesnt mean that the dreams are evenly spaced. They are concentrated in REM sleep, and there is no data here to say that 15% of that 75% of NREM are dreams, they are simply indistiguishable...which means you have no clue where they are, or when.

[Thor]

That is exactly my point. But sleep paralysis still does occur. We do not act out our dreams, whether REM or NREM. Are you starting to understand why the term sleep paralysis is used, instead of REM-atonia? No, I don't understand it, because that's not a meaning of the term "sleep paralysis" that is known in the medical or scientific communities. You are of course free to invent the terminology you want, but the terms "sleep" or "dream" seem to already describe what you are talking about, so there is no need to misuse an established term. After all you are talking about subjective bodily sensations occuring concomitant with sleep or dreaming, and in the absence of actual measurements it would be hard or impossible for an individual to identify those sensations as physiological states.

[moonshine]

No, I don't understand it, because that's not a meaning of the term "sleep paralysis" that is known in the medical or scientific communities. You are of course free to invent the terminology you want, but the terms "sleep" or "dream" seem to already describe what you are talking about, so there is no need to misuse an established term. After all you are talking about subjective bodily sensations occuring concomitant with sleep or dreaming, and in the absence of actual measurements it would be hard or impossible for an individual to identify those sensations as physiological states. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Laberge is Scientist.

[Thor]

In the thread I was citing you mentioned a study where 1 member out of maybe 100something or so reported a dream in non rem sleep. This is clearly not statistically significant (p<.05) I don't recall citing such a study; could you please point it out for me? Do you not see the flaw in logic here? The author is making an assumption. Let me put it in a hypothetical situation: Approximately 10-30% of NREM dreams are indistinguishable from REM dreams : And lets say that NREM dreams occur 1/100000, or 1/1000000 compared to REM dreams..you just don't know, just because 10% or 30% or 100% of those 1 in a million are indistinguishable from REM dreams doesn't mean that they are common. There is no need to guess at numbers. Quoting again from the same article: "Dreaming and REM sleep are incompletely correlated. Between 5% and 30% of REM awakenings do not elicit dream reports; and at least 5-10% of NREM awakenings do elicit dream reports which are indistinguishable from REM reports (Hobson 1988)." Note that here we are talking about awakenings in a sleep lab, not the number of dreams. Lets accept his numbers, 75% of the time you are in NREM, but that doesnt mean that the dreams are evenly spaced. They are concentrated in REM sleep, and there is no data here to say that 15% of that 75% of NREM are dreams, they are simply indistiguishable...which means you have no clue where they are, or when. [/SIZE] I'm afraid I don't understand what you are trying to say. What point are you arguing here?

[Thor]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Laberge is Scientist. LaBerge doesn't use the term "sleep paralysis" in that way. He uses it to mean either REM atonia or the disorder.

[moonshine]

LaBerge doesn't use the term "sleep paralysis" in that way. He uses it to mean either REM atonia or the disorder. Doesn't use it in what way? Honestly THOR you seem to keep changing your mind as to what your actually arguing about.

[Robot_Butler]

Did you read the study Mortalis posted? You are paralyzed when you are dreaming. Don't be deceived by the REM in REM-atonia. You can be aware of this paralysis if you maintain body consciousness. I don't know why you insist on splitting hairs where it is not at all necessary. You seem to think there is some set of magical rules when it comes to sleeping. It does not work like that. There are no hard barriers between stages of consciousness and sleep. What few barriers there are, are purely conventions, established by us as observers to aid in our understanding. They can be broken down through any of the techniques discussed on this forum.

[Thor]

Did you read the study Mortalis posted? No, where did he post it? Do you have the citation? There are no hard barriers between stages of consciousness and sleep. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "barriers", but since consciousness often occurs in sleep it seems odd to suggest that there could be any barriers between the two.

[Mortalis]

Its at the end of your thread about what everyone should know about SP

[Thor]

Its at the end of your thread about what everyone should know about SP Thanks, found it. I also refuted it in that thread.

[Mortalis]

I do enjoy how you refute science with opinion, its great.

[moonshine]

So this is were I've gotten to:- There are also common feelings as you progress to SP. These are a relaxing of the body (some describe it as a lead blanket) and possibly pins and needles, probably due to your blood circulation slowing down. You are after all almost in a trance state. It is possible to move from this state, and you can be slow and sluggish, but it is not SP proper, which, from descriptions, cannot be mistaken. SP is often (but no neccesarily) accompanied by Hypnogogic illusions caused by your bodies switching from external stimuli (touch, hearing, sight) to internally generated stimuli. A lot of people describe a warm tingling wave (some describe it as a mild electric shock) that comes over them, from toe to head as their body shuts down. They then can hear noises, feel vibrations or movements like they are shaking. Which of course they aren't. Some also describe what seems like a difficulty in breathing. I'm not sure, but this seems to be to describe your body switching to an automatic reflex. In reality your getting more than enough air, it just feels like your breathing quicker and shallower than you would during the day. There may also be a pressure in the chest and head. Finally, a lot of people describe the feeling of their heart beat quickening. This may be excitement, but has been described as another illusion created by the change from awake to dream mode.

[moonshine]

A related thread with some good descriptions.... http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...250#post972250

[pond weed]

ug, finaly an answere to the origional post, if id have know i could skip to the end to find the answere (that moonshine has posted up himself) i would have skipped to the end to avoid the irrelevant debate about what means what.